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Starting like that gives enough power for a shorter stroke when close to table.

Most players wreck it all by being given too tight or trying to move everything at once all at same time. No way to a create or use leverage or transfer power that way.

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Starting like that gives enough power for a shorter stroke when close to table.

Most players wreck it all by being given too tight or trying to move everything at once all at same time. No way to a create or use leverage or transfer power that way.

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I can so relate to this.

Back in the day, I just attributed completely missing some shots as having a bad day or whatever. Now I've started to notice that I'm barely even moving anything because everything tries to move at once! You just kinda get stuck there, flexing the shit out of your muscles, doing a tiny swing.

My game has really gotten loads more relaxed lately, but it still happens. In the highlight video I posted of Jeff, he is clearly NOT tense. In the multiball, he appears to be.
 
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I like reading about these discussions, because often others can see what I cannot see in myself.
I agree with the shorter stroke. I was really tense in the multi-ball, and the coach kept telling me to give it my best shot. Since I was lagging behind, I made the mistake of thinking a bigger swing will give me a better shot rather than doing a shorter but faster 'whip' like shot with the use of my hip and knees etc. I don't think I am doing big swings in normal rallies unless I have plenty of time for hitting a smash for a high ball or something. But then I may be wrong because I don't often record myself in normal rallies apart from playing matches.

Speaking of matches, I have an unedited match here which I lost. I beat him last year, but in this match, I feel I am on the inferior end.
I will really appreciate any comments, esp what I did well, what I didn't do well, what I should do against this style of player. Thanks.

 
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Here are the things I observed NL and why I said Archo's and Shuki's comments made sense. Let me know what you feel about these observations, right or wrong ...

1. The swing is uncoordinated with the weight transfer/hip swing when there is weight transfer/hip swing.
2. The elbow is high , I have observed that CPen forehand swings have the elbow higher than Shakehand swings, however, in this case its not always stable.
3. The legs are not stable in the sense that the seem to be slipping on the floor , may be contributing to some of the issues.

Definitely there is some rushing on the shots which could be either because Jeff is tired/stiff or the coach is feeding faster than Jeff can react.

Now, there are both POVs that suggest that the left leg should move in with the right and there are others that suggest for adults it should not. In this case we know Jeff has issues with the knee .. so which one do you think would easier on the knees ?

One way to co-ordinate your weight transfer or hip swing with your arm motion is to keep the elbows tucked / shorten the swing and let the power flow from the body ...

PS : I did not read Jeff's last comment before I posted this ...

I think Archosaurus and Shuki made comments that are neither here nor there, but need to be placed in context of the specific situation. I agree on the Hurricane comment but it all depends on where JeffM wants to take his game. Most of Hurricanes advantages show up in the short game and at the level JeffM plays, short game is nonexistent.
 
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Hi, <g class="gr_ gr_21 gr-alert gr_spell gr_run_anim ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="21" data-gr-id="21">Sakumi</g>. You may have done this elsewhere and I may have missed it but can you briefly discussed your playing history and current level? Generally, I think it is important for people to know the playing level and styles etc. of those giving them advice. Even more important if they have coached.

Ok. So I'm 15 (nearly 16) and have been playing for roughly 3 years, slightly longer. As you can tell I'm from the UK so my ranking is from Table Tennis England. Last year at around July my ranking was in the top 250 for the cadet category. However, due to being extremely <g class="gr_ gr_27 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_run_anim Punctuation only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="27" data-gr-id="27">busy</g> I haven't been able to play in competitions in over a year which has lead my ranking becoming quite low - 700. Now that I'm 15, I am old enough to compete in the junior league which now means I can get a ranking in the junior category. The TT club I go to is Batts: http://www.batts.org.uk/. The club is sponsored by <g class="gr_ gr_28 gr-alert gr_spell gr_run_anim ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="28" data-gr-id="28">Donic</g> and has a coach in the top 15 senior <g class="gr_ gr_29 gr-alert gr_spell gr_run_anim ContextualSpelling ins-del multiReplace" id="29" data-gr-id="29">mens</g> in England. I have recently moved up to the A division in my club :)

You can see the club in this video by Table Tennis Daily,
 
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JM... look at the position of your feet. You are mostly in a BH oriented stance feet even or sometimes right foot in front, this is OK to get BH into play, but makes your FH really suck, like at 5:45 and many other places. Your Fh at 3:51 and 5:17 look at your feet position for those and how much leverage and power transfer you could make, even with being tense.

You got a whole boatload of stuff to address, but I would say fix easy to understand things like your stance, ready position, how you position the feet, and being crouched. That will help you be in position and help cover some other things wrong to a degree
 
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Yesterday went to an usual Sunday tournament at a local club. Things didn't go as well as they could, but at least I didn't lose to opponents which would be unacceptable to lose to. Last week I noticed a strange slipping-like feeling while looping, so yesterday was also like a test for my Hurricane if it's playable or not. Unfortunately, it seems that it's not quite. I had a small bubble on the rubber which wouldn't affect me in too many shots but last week I noticed another one right on the sweet spot so it seems this is the reason of the feeling the ball slip on the rubber. Fortunately I have a spare one, but the way the rubber wore out made me think a little for future : the Hurricane is a good rubber, but it wears off all of a sudden. I won't blame the rubber because the way I played was not stellar, especially the legs - they were very static, and perhaps this was the main reason why I didn't have a good day.

I also lost to a chopper in a way that reminded me of NL's match, but much worse - a lot of balls going long. After the match it was evident that I didn't think too much while playing him, trying to win by raw power and repeating the same mistake a lot of times - Slow FH loop - a little high pips chop - power loop off the table.

Will change my FH rubber asap and see what happens. Hopefully, I'll get to play some choppers at the next tournament.
 
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I like reading about these discussions, because often others can see what I cannot see in myself.
I agree with the shorter stroke. I was really tense in the multi-ball, and the coach kept telling me to give it my best shot. Since I was lagging behind, I made the mistake of thinking a bigger swing will give me a better shot rather than doing a shorter but faster 'whip' like shot with the use of my hip and knees etc. I don't think I am doing big swings in normal rallies unless I have plenty of time for hitting a smash for a high ball or something. But then I may be wrong because I don't often record myself in normal rallies apart from playing matches.

Speaking of matches, I have an unedited match here which I lost. I beat him last year, but in this match, I feel I am on the inferior end.
I will really appreciate any comments, esp what I did well, what I didn't do well, what I should do against this style of player. Thanks.



Hello JM:

apologies for not being able to watch your video undistracted. I have old man memory so I wanted to post some thoughts before I don't remember for when I do get a chance to watch your vid uninterrupted

Briefly, I'm a dinosaur, traditional chinese penholder playing smooth although I may be more of a pips player as I started as pips, so I smash more than loop

FWIW, some thoughts:

1) agree with Der in foot placement ... left foot forward for righty facilitates fh shots, right foot forward facilitates bh shots for righties ... have an idea which is stronger for you, your bh or fh and stand accordingly

Most ph have better fh

2) You had many unforced errors

Kind of close games and then the unforced errors edges the game to your opponent's favor

3) you served fh pendulum almost all the time in first 2 games, 3rd game you served reverse fh pendulum and lost 2 points, then you also mixed in bh serves

IMO the first game, you probe for weaknees and should mix up your serves, you should've tried these 2 serves in 1st game instead of the 3rd game

4) related to above comment, you are down 2 games and you tried new tactics. .. perhaps you should've tried the higher percentage shots and serves ... there were at least 2 memorable points you had ... fh pendulum serve then 3rd ball attack for winners ... imo you should've went to that a little more

5) again I'm a dinosaur, I play close to table, modern ph is a mystery to me, your smashing was more than 2 steps away from table, I would've been closer to table and smash ... although your mid-distance to far distance from table allowed to return some of his attacks ... you had a highlight-worthy moment when you returned his smash and he couldn't return in time as his forward momentum took him somewhere past the net into your side! Even the ref applauded that point!

6) your opponent served mostly fh pendulum during first game. 2nd and 3rd he served mostly fast to your fh with I don't know how to call this serve but it looks similar to Wang Hao's and Liu Guo Liang's serve stroke ... not sure if you could've capitalized on this or not

Will try to watch the match later uninterrupted, but wanted to post those thoughts before I forget

I'm a new member to site, just a 1400 player who came back to the game after 30+ yrs off... am 51 now. However, one of my philosophies in Life has always been "Iron sharpens iron". Help others improve to the best of my ability.

Truly hope these comments helped.

Very truly yours in TT,

~osp
 
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Old School P, Somehow, Nexy Korea shipped me an Amazon CP blade (all wood blade with feel) I had it in my trunk last time and forgot to break it out. You outta give it a try, I think you will like looping and countering close to table with it. Everything close to table is great. Sinc USD Carl never gave Amazon a whirl, He will use CP grip just to feel this puppy.

Small adjustments to grip at impact on blocks let you pull the puppet strings with this.

Hello Der,

As you know I'm behind the times on this sports technology... clueless what that is ...will google..thank you for the heads up!

~osp (or should it be~osph)
 
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The Amazon is an all-wood blade that has a feel totally different (but effective) from the dominant wood blades. For what you like to do close to the table, you will land shots, control and feel. Nexy Korea Prez designed it with different woods to bring attention to the Amazon basin area.

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I disagree with the way he's doing it. But I also disagree with the paddle leaving a player's sight, the way he gets it behind him on his forehands. You may think it's helping his "whip mechanics" but in my eyes it's wrong. We all have opinions on what the right way to play is, and none of us are more right than anyone else. What I don't like about the way his foot is stapled down, is that it looks pretty clear to me that he struggles to move much in rallies, he doesn't look prepared to move if there was the need to do so. I've noticed it in his other videos but thought it may have just been the specific drill he was working on.

there's a reason I almost never comment on what players should try to improve when it comes to their mechanics.

Every criticism is part of a system and should be tailored to how you want the player to play. All my post is pointing out is that you should be more detailed about what you are criticizing and place it in context. We should all take our comments on the play of others as seriously as we want others to take their comments on our play.

Whip mechanics is not about straightening the arm or anything like that. Ultimately, if you understand the sport broadly, you can decide whether you think something will work or not. I am just pointing out the advice you and archo are giving is neither here nor there and that it should not be considered the final word. I do doubt it is possible to play high level table tennis without whip mechanics, but whip mechanics are not about straightening the arm per se. Let's get that clear.

There are many reasons why someone can struggle to move.
 
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The Amazon is an all-wood blade that has a feel totally different (but effective) from the dominant wood blades. For what you like to do close to the table, you will land shots, control and feel. Nexy Korea Prez designed it with different woods to bring attention to the Amazon basin area.

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Very intersting! I will look into it sooner or later, want my game to be of some semblance of what it was before trying out new stuff

That's the Yin of it, for every Yin there is a Yang.

TheYang of it is go to the Amazon blade and get used to it in addition to try to regain game

I'll mull it over ... lol at me!

Thank you for the suggestion!!
 
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If you could explain the reasons behind each switch and then the next and then why coming back to some of them ... it might help forum members to chime in with their thoughts ... with the information you have provided most of us will say you should either try to play the one which you are most comfortable with or the one you have most fun with ... another way would be to seek out a professional coach who can look at your game and your skills and tell you which style you have the most potential for .. but in general the consensus is that shake hand is the easiest to play with because of the obvious reason and defense is the hardest one .. each penhold style has it advantages but generally lacks power .. however if you are planning to be a recreational player all this should not matter and you should go with the one you have most fun with ...
Hey guys, help me with that question.

Hello everyone , I'm jean of Brazil . I started playing table tennis has a year and a half , I started Japanese penhold, tried to start shakehand , soon moved to Chinese penhold, then turned defense , returned to Chinese penhold and now want to go back defense again. You saw my problem? I just can not decide on a style of play. Could help me in this matter?




I have 1.88 of height, weight 75kg, 19 years. . I use a dhs hurricane , and Tenergy 05 .
 
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Well, NL has a point. Some things that Waldner did would give coaches grey hair.

I still believe that a shorter, more compact backswing by only moving the elbow closer would be beneficial. I think he is very prone to swing from the shoulder with the current method, and we need to consider how he will deal with a fast counterloop into his middle, or a punch block right back at his forehand. Even pretty low level players are capable of such things if they're used to playing against spin, so it's a concern.

Take what I say with a lot of salt, I'm a fairly low level player without coaching. I'm just sharing my own experiences, because my rally swing is very big for my height and I've had to really watch these things. You're free to disregard everything and correct whatever you feel isn't quite right.

Hurricane is a relatively slow rubber. That is a part of the reason his swing is large.

In all honesty, I am not sure what the point of the drill is, other than maybe as a short ball to the forehand, long ball as you are backing out drill, and I am not sure whether I could do much better on the drill than JeffM is doing. What I would like to see is how all the people commenting on this drill would perform while doing it.
 
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If you could explain the reasons behind each switch and then the next and then why coming back to some of them ... it might help forum members to chime in with their thoughts ... with the information you have provided most of us will say you should either try to play the one which you are most comfortable with or the one you have most fun with ... another way would be to seek out a professional coach who can look at your game and your skills and tell you which style you have the most potential for .. but in general the consensus is that shake hand is the easiest to play with because of the obvious reason and defense is the hardest one .. each penhold style has it advantages but generally lacks power .. however if you are planning to be a recreational player all this should not matter and you should go with the one you have most fun with ...

He really should start his own thread.
 
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JM... look at the position of your feet. You are mostly in a BH oriented stance feet even or sometimes right foot in front, this is OK to get BH into play, but makes your FH really suck, like at 5:45 and many other places. Your Fh at 3:51 and 5:17 look at your feet position for those and how much leverage and power transfer you could make, even with being tense.

You got a whole boatload of stuff to address, but I would say fix easy to understand things like your stance, ready position, how you position the feet, and being crouched. That will help you be in position and help cover some other things wrong to a degree

Thanks Der_Echte. Very useful advise. I do like to stand in a BH orientated starting position, as I like to receive with backhand unless the serve is a short backspin one then I will step in and either chop or flip it. But now you have made me realised that my stance position for playing forehand is not right, and I cannot be lazy when I play a forehand. So I will keep that in mind next time I play.
Hello JM:

apologies for not being able to watch your video undistracted. I have old man memory so I wanted to post some thoughts before I don't remember for when I do get a chance to watch your vid uninterrupted

Briefly, I'm a dinosaur, traditional chinese penholder playing smooth although I may be more of a pips player as I started as pips, so I smash more than loop

FWIW, some thoughts:

1) agree with Der in foot placement ... left foot forward for righty facilitates fh shots, right foot forward facilitates bh shots for righties ... have an idea which is stronger for you, your bh or fh and stand accordingly

Most ph have better fh

2) You had many unforced errors

Kind of close games and then the unforced errors edges the game to your opponent's favor

3) you served fh pendulum almost all the time in first 2 games, 3rd game you served reverse fh pendulum and lost 2 points, then you also mixed in bh serves

IMO the first game, you probe for weaknees and should mix up your serves, you should've tried these 2 serves in 1st game instead of the 3rd game

4) related to above comment, you are down 2 games and you tried new tactics. .. perhaps you should've tried the higher percentage shots and serves ... there were at least 2 memorable points you had ... fh pendulum serve then 3rd ball attack for winners ... imo you should've went to that a little more

5) again I'm a dinosaur, I play close to table, modern ph is a mystery to me, your smashing was more than 2 steps away from table, I would've been closer to table and smash ... although your mid-distance to far distance from table allowed to return some of his attacks ... you had a highlight-worthy moment when you returned his smash and he couldn't return in time as his forward momentum took him somewhere past the net into your side! Even the ref applauded that point!

6) your opponent served mostly fh pendulum during first game. 2nd and 3rd he served mostly fast to your fh with I don't know how to call this serve but it looks similar to Wang Hao's and Liu Guo Liang's serve stroke ... not sure if you could've capitalized on this or not

Will try to watch the match later uninterrupted, but wanted to post those thoughts before I forget

I'm a new member to site, just a 1400 player who came back to the game after 30+ yrs off... am 51 now. However, one of my philosophies in Life has always been "Iron sharpens iron". Help others improve to the best of my ability.

Truly hope these comments helped.

Very truly yours in TT,

~osp

Thanks OSP for your valuable input! It is always good to have some advise from another fellow ph. I agree with your comments. I always have this mentality of saving the variety of serve till later. This is something I will need to change and put into practice more often, so that it becomes a habit when I do it in matches. Yeah I was very frustrated with my FH percentage in the 3rd ball attacks. Something I will try work on more, and to try not to be affected by match situation (being more tense etc), and just play normally.
 
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I like reading about these discussions, because often others can see what I cannot see in myself.
I agree with the shorter stroke. I was really tense in the multi-ball, and the coach kept telling me to give it my best shot. Since I was lagging behind, I made the mistake of thinking a bigger swing will give me a better shot rather than doing a shorter but faster 'whip' like shot with the use of my hip and knees etc. I don't think I am doing big swings in normal rallies unless I have plenty of time for hitting a smash for a high ball or something. But then I may be wrong because I don't often record myself in normal rallies apart from playing matches.

Speaking of matches, I have an unedited match here which I lost. I beat him last year, but in this match, I feel I am on the inferior end.
I will really appreciate any comments, esp what I did well, what I didn't do well, what I should do against this style of player. Thanks.

Both of you are on the inferior end, to be honest. You really need to learn and embrace the concepts of spin, semi-circular strokes, whippy swings and thin/thick contact.

I don't think that your problem is your foot positioning or anything like that. The problem is that you were playing as if you had no idea what to do to the ball when you have a good chance to hit but it is not a high and easy ball.

What you need to understand and embrace is that table tennis expertise is built by experience with doing a proper stroke. As in, to get better at table tennis:

1. Get a proper stroke (good acceleration, whippy backswing and follow through)
2. Apply it to the ball in drills. Learn to adjust it to the qualities of the incoming ball in practice.
3. Apply it to the ball in match like drills or practice matches. Learn to adjust it to the qualities of the incoming ball in rallies.
4. Apply it to the ball in competitive matches. Learn to adjust it to the qualities of the incoming ball under pressure.

There is a longer description of this process. But these are the basics. Most of adjusting your stroke should be changing dwell time and contact point.

What you are doing in that match is 1) you are not spinning the ball consistently. 2) you are surprised when you miss and decide to play softer and flatter shots that do not trouble your opponent, rather than use the shots your practice and accept the results (your inability to generate spin is partly at fault, but so is your fear of missing) and 3) you are hoping that your opponent misses but have failed to realize that by not spinning the ball, you have dropped your level to his without even trying.

You need to learn how to play heavy spin forehands and backhands. You need to develop technique that lets you accelerate the racket and then apply it to a variety of balls to GENERATE SPIN. Forget pace. When you can generate spin, you can blend spin and pace.

How you learn to generate spin is up to you. But either you practice a 1000 hours getting consistent at hitting the ball fast with your technique (or switch to short pips), or spend 100 hours with inverted and get better at spinning no-spin balls. Right now, your biggest problem is that you cannot play a spinny topspin, especially when the ball is spinless. If you fix that, your game will transform overnight. But you are still on the side of the fence where you cannot play a spinny topspin and if you stay on that side of the fence, improvement will always be slower and far behind where you would be with spin.

I think you are selling yourself short if you think this match means much in the bigger scheme of things other than it shows that you are not playing the way you practice.
 
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