JediJesseS development, recommendations for slowing down

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Hello! I'm 32 and have been playing for around one year. We do three sessions of 3-4 hours a week usually about an hour of that is coached instruction and multiball, another hour for partner drills, and an hour for match play or pseudo match play (different scenarios like server must push twice and then gets the first chance to attack, or server must try and attack 3rd ball with topspin no matter the difficulty). I'm really enjoying the difficulty and precision of the sport, I don't have an official rating but I figure I've only improved to a level of 1000-1200 USATT rating. Still very much a beginner and I feel even more so as most others at the club are at least 1700 rating or above.

I played for the first 9 months or so with a Donic Appelgren Allplay with H3Neo FH and Cream Transcend BH. My technique is passable (low body, some weight transfer, trying to keep blade and arm on one plane) but it lacks raw arm speed and snap, so spin and power tends to lack as well. At least from what my Chinese coach communicates.

Then a friend at the club gave me a Carbonado 190 for next to nothing as he prefered the 145. I definitely wanted to try it out, went to H8 on the FH and switched to FX-P on BH. The "feel" of this setup seemed great! Improvement kept coming and coaching focused on opening slow spinny loops from a push and then a stronger 5th ball attack as well as direct 3rd ball attacks. Sometimes magic could happen and I'd have an hard low loop. But more often than not my third ball is an awkward attack with either way to much upper arm or a weak wristy spin (bad footwork and ball anticipation). Also I would send FH topspins long frequently and I started to worry about the speed of the blade.

So after 3 months with the Carbonado I'm feeling like I really want to work on my spin and slow things down. Do you think that one of the faster 5ply wood blades with some softer rubbers would help me work towards this goal, or is this still too beginner/development unfriendly? I was considering Stiga Infinity or Stiga Eternity. The reviews talk about the great feel and dwell of the Infinity, but I'm familiar with so few blades/rubbers I can't make any personal evaluation. I don't think I need the additional speed/hardness of the Eternity but I'm wondering if they've figured out the top ply problems they had with the Infinity with this model. Or is that something not widespread enough to be concerned with?

Rubbers would be some combination of Xiom, thinking of choosing from:

FH
--------
Omega V Tour
Omega V Pro
Vega Pro

BH
--------
Omega V Pro
Omega V Europe
Vega Pro
Vega Europe

The thread about having the same rubber FH and BH for easier development got me thinking. It sounds like the Tour plays something like a softer version of the chinese rubbers I'm used to, but maybe it's not enough of a difference.

I know in the end these equipment decisions count a lot less than technique and mental improvements, but I'm wanting to stick with my next setup for a good while. What would some recommendations be for my situation? Do not feel limited to the brands listed here.

I'll have video up in the next couple days!
 
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A beginner should not use carbonado 190 in the first place. It's way too fast anf uncontrollable.

A good 5 ply would be blades like korbel, offensive S, or stratus power wood. These blades are classic limba-limba-ayous

For the rubber, I'd recommend something like bluefire M2 or evolution EL-P. Omega V Pro's sponge is probably a bit too hard for your level unless you're using hurricane.

But why do you want to switch to tensor rubbers on the FH in the first place? If you've been using hurricane for a year, i'd rather stick with it
 
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Stop worrying about equipment and play. That is how you will get better. Pick a blade and use it. Both are good. Different but good.
 
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I had thought a similar way until I hit with a few of Carl's ALL+ all wood setups with modern rubbers. I could lay down some vicious spin and pace when I needed it, not laser drive pace, but enough.

I agree with Carl's assessment the Applegren could still work with modern rubbers.

If you want something a touch pacier, try a Peter Pan if you are around Carl on a visit to NYC, that blade and modern rubbers are right up your alley... but why spend all that money? Just slap on MX-P on FH and a BH rubber you like and call it a day.
 
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What I am wondering is: what is wrong with the Applegren Allplay? That actually should be a good blade for you.
It's not a great reason but people seemed more enthusiastic about hitting and drilling with me when faster balls were coming back at them. I was tempted to use equipment as a bit of a shortcut here but after a couple months I want something I at least feel in control of again. Most everyone is very kind but I'm the guy a couple notches below everyone else who you aren't necessarily thrilled about playing with. If the Appelgren still makes sense a year into training I can definitely pick it up again.

But why do you want to switch to tensor rubbers on the FH in the first place? If you've been using hurricane for a year, i'd rather stick with it
The common wisdom seemed to be that softer sponge rubbers helped learn the mechanics for spin and "pull" with the rubber better than hard like hurricane, and that something like Xiom Europe is a good place to start. I play partially for physical fitness and I love the idea of a bigger forehand swing rather than a super compact one, so I started with some hard tacky rubbers. Just not sure if this detrimental in any other aspects.

Stop worrying about equipment and play. That is how you will get better. Pick a blade and use it. Both are good. Different but good.
I hear you. I get in about 12 hours a week and wish I could do more; way more addictive than I anticipated! No table at home but I work footwork and shadow swings. I have a ton of "just playing" to do, but I want to try and maximize it as I'm far enough behind as it is. This will definitely be more about video and progress going forward, hoping to get the dumb equipment questions out of the way first thing.

Thanks for the replies so far!
 
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Here is a piece of advise :

1. Warm up slow by just blocking with your forehand and try to feel every ball. The moment your waist rotation , timing and the sweet spot comes into play you will feel automatically you are generating a lot of speed.
2. Don't worry about others, others will be enthusiastic to play with you the more you put the ball on table consistently at the same spot. If somebody is giving you shit about the speed of the ball , as long as you are not chop blocking his loops and blocking with a forward motion , ask him to take a hike.
3. If you want to have fun , the better way to approach is to bring your core strength into play and not a big swing. If you look at the famed practitioners of hte big swing ( CNT team members of course ) , when they practice they try not to use big swing, unless you go a generation back to the likes of WLQ or Ma Lin.
Even ma long seems to be using a conservative swing. The big swing happens automatically when they have a ball they can punish. Focus on the timing , the waist rotation, the core power and when all of them are in place start adding the forearm snap and you would good to go.
One tip : To bring core rotation into play, ask somebody to block your loops down the line while you try to loop it back along the same parallel.
4. Get the TTEdge app and start playing when you are at home. It will really help your ball reading skills. The biggest part we adults struggle with is reading the ball early , once you get that skill done, you will make a lot of progress.

Always remember, relax and focus and put one more ball on the table ...


It's not a great reason but people seemed more enthusiastic about hitting and drilling with me when faster balls were coming back at them. I was tempted to use equipment as a bit of a shortcut here but after a couple months I want something I at least feel in control of again. Most everyone is very kind but I'm the guy a couple notches below everyone else who you aren't necessarily thrilled about playing with. If the Appelgren still makes sense a year into training I can definitely pick it up again.


The common wisdom seemed to be that softer sponge rubbers helped learn the mechanics for spin and "pull" with the rubber better than hard like hurricane, and that something like Xiom Europe is a good place to start. I play partially for physical fitness and I love the idea of a bigger forehand swing rather than a super compact one, so I started with some hard tacky rubbers. Just not sure if this detrimental in any other aspects.


I hear you. I get in about 12 hours a week and wish I could do more; way more addictive than I anticipated! No table at home but I work footwork and shadow swings. I have a ton of "just playing" to do, but I want to try and maximize it as I'm far enough behind as it is. This will definitely be more about video and progress going forward, hoping to get the dumb equipment questions out of the way first thing.

Thanks for the replies so far!
 
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It's not a great reason but people seemed more enthusiastic about hitting and drilling with me when faster balls were coming back at them. I was tempted to use equipment as a bit of a shortcut here but after a couple months I want something I at least feel in control of again. Most everyone is very kind but I'm the guy a couple notches below everyone else who you aren't necessarily thrilled about playing with. If the Appelgren still makes sense a year into training I can definitely pick it up again.

One way of thinking about this: if you have the mechanics to make the shots you make with the Appelgren Allplay have power, it means your mechanics have really improved. Part of why that blade is good for a developing player is your mechanics have to be very good for you to get the power. Because the blade does not do the work for you. But, a blade that does the work for you, does not encourage you to time your body, core rotation and weight transfer from legs with your stroke to get more power from less effort since the shots you are hitting with a blade like the Carbonado are already faster than your technique can handle.

So the blade that makes you work a little harder actually helps you develop better technique.

That being said, a blade that is slightly faster like:

1) Stiga Allround Evolution
2) Yasaka Sweden Extra
3) Nexy Peter Pan

Would still be an excellent choice. They would be enough faster than the Appelgren for you to notice it. But they would still be a pace that would make you need to have better mechanics to get a the full power. And those are great blades for learning to spin with power.

By the way Der: Atanda Musa is using the Peter Pan to give lessons at Spin because he liked that blade. :)
 
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The common wisdom seemed to be that softer sponge rubbers helped learn the mechanics for spin and "pull" with the rubber better than hard like hurricane, and that something like Xiom Europe is a good place to start. I play partially for physical fitness and I love the idea of a bigger forehand swing rather than a super compact one, so I started with some hard tacky rubbers. Just not sure if this detrimental in any other aspects.

That is kinda true. With softer sponge it is way easier to create spin and vary it. With a Hurricane sheet, you can boost it a little bit, it will soften the sponge and add little bit of "feel."

But honestly, it doesn't matter much since you have regular coaching, which is crucial. Not everybody has this luxury. So all you need is to practice with full commitment and the improvement will come inevitably. So as long you're fine with your current equipement, it is better to keep it so that you don't waste time on transitioning.
 
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The common wisdom seemed to be that softer sponge rubbers helped learn the mechanics for spin and "pull" with the rubber better than hard like hurricane, and that something like Xiom Europe is a good place to start. I play partially for physical fitness and I love the idea of a bigger forehand swing rather than a super compact one, so I started with some hard tacky rubbers. Just not sure if this detrimental in any other aspects.

While it is generally more recommended for beginners to start with softer sponge, it applies more for tensor rubbers such as comparing Tenergy 05 to Vega Europe.

Chinese rubbers are entirely different story. They require good footwork and good swing with proper power. Although they're hard, they're not springy or fast. You've been playing with hurricane rubbers for at least a year, changing to a european tensor rubbers will be a pretty big change and unless you've done something like that pretty often, it will take sometime to get adjusted and hinders your game development.

Moreover, you're 32 years old which means you still have the power and agility to play with slower chinese rubbers.
 
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if after one year of playing 12 hours a week you can't control a stiga carbonado with a couple of tensor rubbers maybe you are not made for this my friend

hqdefault.jpg
 
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If you want to improve and train with coach, then definitely you should use slower blade with soft rubbers.
Appelgren is a goog blade, but to tell you the truth you can pick any allround blade and it will be fine. For rubbers you can choose joola samba+, very good and controllable rubber. If you have little bit more money you can try Tibhar evo fxp - this one is little bit more faster but still you get a lot control.
This setup will make you understand better this sport and help you improve. Once when you find out how to loose your wrist then you will get a lot of power with this setup.
 
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It's wrong to talk about controlling a blade and two rubbers. It's the ball we try to control through our shots with the help of our equipment. Regardless the equipment, probably anyone can control a slow, no spin, high ball played by a beginner, but who could be in position to control the balls provided by a pro player? As we get better we get to play with better partners and opponents who give us a harder time controlling the ball, but that doesn't mean we haven't actually improved.

if after one year of playing 12 hours a week you can't control a stiga carbonado with a couple of tensor rubbers maybe you are not made for this my friend

hqdefault.jpg
 
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JediJesseS what you need to figure out is what are your strengths, what are your weaknesses, what gamestyle suits you and at what distance from the table you want to play. That will determine the kind of equipment best suits you. After you decide, stick to it for at least one year and work on every aspect of your game.
If you deffinately want some equipment advice, I believe you should choose all-wood blades as they provide better feeling which is crucial for beginners and developing players.
 
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Here is my advice. You already have a coach. There are no shortcuts in this game. It took me about a year and a half or training with two good coaches to break 1700, and I was probably 800-1000 when I started.

Pick any blade or rubber you want, work with your coach, video yourself and look at the problems you are having.

There are no shortcuts in the land of equipment. What you have to focus on is the quality of ball you are producing. In my view, it is beat for adults to learn with an all wood blade with good feedback and feeling as too many adults are addicted to hard contact and it is a tough way to learn to play. With softer all woods, you get a wider range of physical response to different ball contacts that you can use to adapt your stroke or grip pressure.

Chinese rubbers are not good for you as their advantages show up in places where most adult players are not going to seriously deal with until they break 1800 or even 2000.

In the end though, what will make the most impact is working with your coach and focusing on the quality of the ball you are producing and how the changes you make to your strokes and racket angles affect these qualities.
 
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Got some footage Tuesday, working on getting it to Youtube.


I was watching this video and I found the opinion presented on hard tacky vs softer non-tacky rubbers starting around 5:07 interesting. It almost seems opposite from the usual ideas on the forum, I wonder if it is a geographic difference. He thinks tacky rubbers are better for amateurs because you can just focus on brushing the ball instead of needing the bat speed and power to deform the rubber and sink the ball in. Interesting stuff, and fascinating how each player can perceive these variables differently!
 
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Finally, footage of a couple games from the weekend! I am closest to the camera at the beginning and first to serve. I left all the embarrassing stuff in so tear it apart. There are a countless number of things to work on but big picture I see (just to pick a couple):

Many serves end up too high over the net
Lazy recovery after serve
Hesitation, low swing speed on many shots
Too upright as the point goes on, could use more legs and weight transfer

A big technique thing I've been noticing is I start the back swing too late and then lean back away from the ball to give myself a little extra time. Big loss of power and spin, also makes it harder to recover as the center of gravity is off. Have fun watching and let me know what you think!

 
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