Question about Shakehand variations

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Hey guys

Today i was playing around with grips. Thend suddenly one particular change made so much sense and such a good feeling to play i was amazed.
My old grip looked like this:
Gripping the blade very close to the rubber. With this grip i had problems on the forehand, as it did not feel very natural and my index finger often got pushed up the rubber.

old1.jpg old2.jpg


Now my new grip looks like this:

Alot looser and not so close to the rubber. This way i can use the wrist alot better and the forehand feels alot better.

new1.jpgnew2.jpg

So what are your grips like, and what experiences did you make?

PS:
Funny how i always find out new things when something starts to hurt. Last time my legs hurt so i took a different stance and it felt much better.
This time my my shoulder hurt and i taped it up. And got this result :)

shoulder.jpg >Shoulder with sexy tape :)
 
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Boogar, I am going to disappoint and confound you.

My basic baseline starting grip is very much like your initial grip. When I do a FH opening heavy slow loop, I heavily modify my grip VERY LOOSE and on backswing, it is much like your second grip, but with finger up and extreme loose grip. That is how I can explode and transfer energy efficiently, and on the recovery stroke going back t base, I reset everything back to base without thinking.

I do a much different grip for a fast FH topspin at the table during bang bang FH to FH, and it is much like your first grip.

The BH bang bang close to table uses base grio, but when I got a LOT of time, like vs an underspin slow nad long, I use only thumb and first finger VERY loose and explode.
 
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Boogar, I am going to disappoint and confound you.

My basic baseline starting grip is very much like your initial grip. When I do a FH opening heavy slow loop, I heavily modify my grip VERY LOOSE and on backswing, it is much like your second grip, but with finger up and extreme loose grip. That is how I can explode and transfer energy efficiently, and on the recovery stroke going back t base, I reset everything back to base without thinking.

I do a much different grip for a fast FH topspin at the table during bang bang FH to FH, and it is much like your first grip.

The BH bang bang close to table uses base grio, but when I got a LOT of time, like vs an underspin slow nad long, I use only thumb and first finger VERY loose and explode.

I see that makes sense.

As i see it: Closer to the rubber gives you more control and the looser grip provides more spin and speed at the cost of control. However i like your approach to modify your grips with the factor time in mind.

I think if i keep trying things out i will eventually find my own grips like you:)
 
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Coaches would groan and roll in the grave if they saw a slow-motion vid of my preferred strokes and knew my level. They would swear on a deathbed I would or should never make it past USA club average player.

Out of all members, Carl and Next Level have seen me the most, but none of them have given me any crap over my grip, my results and rally play are a different matter and that is what counts. Some can argue such and such holds my level back, but for me it is like many others - I simply need to be reading the ball better and have more courage to attack... I say that being credited as a RAMBO attacker.

When you are stuck close to the table, you need to be stable and consistent, so choking up on the bat like in your first pic is my default.

When I have more time, I can go for better energy transfer and max spin, so I change up the grip.
 
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DerEchte, I made a video for Shuki that makes the same point you are making. When learning the basic strokes, coaches recommend you use a neutral grip so that you are not too slow to play any strokes or your game doesn't suffer from slow transitions. Using a very biased grip will make you want to use the side it favors more. But as you get better and play much more, you may find certain grips facilitate certain shots more easily. As long as your brain is doing these changes quickly and without prompting, it is okay. As long as you play enough and practice enough to support these transitions, all is well. The problem is when you have complex transitions that cannot be supported by your practice. This will lead to being caught with the wrong grip for a stroke more than you would like.
 
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DerEchte, I made a video for Shuki that makes the same point you are making. When learning the basic strokes, coaches recommend you use a neutral grip so that you are not too slow to play any strokes or your game doesn't suffer from slow transitions. Using a very biased grip will make you want to use the side it favors more. But as you get better and play much more, you may find certain grips facilitate certain shots more easily. As long as your brain is doing these changes quickly and without prompting, it is okay. As long as you play enough and practice enough to support these transitions, all is well. The problem is when you have complex transitions that cannot be supported by your practice. This will lead to being caught with the wrong grip for a stroke more than you would like.

I had to watch our match from Jan 2 of 2016 and see comments why i did such and such to realize... I keep a stable grip on base strokes, but where I got time, I change loose without thinking and reset on way back. I problem I have is I commit based on anticipation and when my anticipation is wrong, I am so wrong it is silly.
 
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oh i almost forgot about the most important change with the new grip.
I always had the problem that my backhands had this strange fading side spin, i could not put alot of topsin on it and only in combination with the "strawberry" side spin. I call it that because of the banana and strawberry flip :) strawberry being the opposite sidespin to the banana.

With the new grip i almost cant do those strange strawberry shots! Thats what i liked about it the most!
 
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I don't really think about grip too much. I transition from a forehand grip to a backhand grip automatically when I pronate/supinate my wrist to get into the transition. As my mechanics have got better, so has my grip.

I don't think you can have a good grip without good mechanics. That's why some "bad" grips and strokes are actually fine for the most part: the mechanics are sound even if it looks a bit shit. I'd at least think it to hold some truth.

I have a very standard grip which changes around slightly for different shots. I think I have a good idea of what I want my grip to be right now, after focusing quite intensely on having a loose, effortlessly fast and painless stroke at all times. It has no gimmicks that I know of, it's just good overall and my strokes look good nowadays when I'm not half death gripping the handle all the time.

Let me tell you that you were gripping the handle, and you still are. That's why your index finger goes up on the rubber on every forehand.

You wanna grip the rubber and hold the handle with your fingers: not the other way around where you hold the handle with your palm and try to stay off the rubber. That way you have both control and power: you don't exactly sacrifice anything IMO.


Picture 242.jpgPicture 243.jpg


Actually, let's do this. I overlayed my grip and your new grip over some pro player, Ma Long I think based on the blade handle. Could be anyone, doesn't matter at all. Any pro with a standard grip is good.

Now, don't look at a picture of a pro's grip and try to 100% copy it forcing your fingers where theirs are, that won't work for obvious anatomical reasons, but take some pointers. I think pros' grips are more neutral than not.


Picture 243 png.jpg244 png.jpg

What you want to look at is the similarity. The pic is not perfect so there will be some dissimilarity, but notice just how much you have: it's like you're holding a racket for another game entirely.

People have got by well with a strange grip (Seemiller, Hasegawa) but obviously you think your grip is not working for you: so go for the neutral grip and see how you like it. I think you will, and later you can start to develop in some things to it. Or they will happen by themselves as your strokes get better.
 
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Not sure if I should explain what's wrong with some of what arch is saying and wrong with boogars grip change or just let it go.

After all, it's not an advice thread. He was just excited to talk about the changes in his game with his grip change. Why take that excitement away from him.


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Not sure if I should explain what's wrong with some of what arch is saying and wrong with boogars grip change or just let it go.

After all, it's not an advice thread. He was just excited to talk about the changes in his game with his grip change. Why take that excitement away from him.


[/QU

Let it out! Dont worry i am going tob e excited still :)
 
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Not sure if I should explain what's wrong with some of what arch is saying and wrong with boogars grip change or just let it go.

After all, it's not an advice thread. He was just excited to talk about the changes in his game with his grip change. Why take that excitement away from him.


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You should. You really should. Archo is learning from all of us in his own special way.
 
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Well, I'm going to ignore what Arch is saying because it is a bit too funny if you know what you are talking about.

Focus on what NextLevel and Der_Echte have said.

Ideals are that your grip is relaxed and as you are more experienced, your grip changes a tiny bit with each shot.

One thing Arch seems to have gotten correct is, it looks like you may be gripping the racket too tightly. Have a look at Brett's video on that subject and practice that.

One other detail: for BH, if your thumb is on the blade face so you can press into it on the BH stroke, it gives you more power and control. I do it without and with the thumb pressing but the BH will have more pop and spin if your thumb is on the blade face (on the rubber). When you hit FH your thumb can be curled up like that. But it probably won't be relaxed if it is.

Last detail. I have had the privilege to watch Atanda Musa play for years. That guy holds the racket in so many different ways and so strangely that it is really a good learning experience. In his late 50s the guy is still pretty darn amazing. And one thing you learn from watching him is that the grip can change but it a lose grip is good. Sometimes when I watch I think the racket is going to fly out of his hand. He is very relaxed.


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Last detail. I have had the privilege to watch Atanda Musa play for years. That guy holds the racket in so many different ways and so strangely that it is really a good learning experience. In his late 50s the guy is still pretty darn amazing. And one thing you learn from watching him is that the grip can change but it a lose grip is good. Sometimes when I watch I think the racket is going to fly out of his hand. He is very relaxed.


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Probably still the most famous table tennis player Nigeria produced.
 
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You should. You really should. Archo is learning from all of us in his own special way.

Okay. Here's my short version first. I'll make a video of important parts of the grip tonight.

Everyone's grip is different in SOME way. There is no correct shakehand grip. There are however incorrect shakehand grips. The most important part of a players grip is jay it allows them to use finger pressure correctly with different strokes as well as using the finger pressure to transition between strokes. ( I'll explain this in my next paragraph because it will blow your mind and this is one of the parts I need video to explain.) not only is pressure with your fingers important, but having your fingers in a position that gives you good leverage on certain strokes is extremely important. For example a pointer finger being pretty straight a cross the bottom can make some types of forehand strokes actually more difficult. Then having that index finger straight up may give you better power, putting leverage behind that paddle but you'll lose stability. So you have to find what works for you.

Now when I'm talking about finger pressure transitioning between strokes, what this means is... Imagine you're doing a simple forehand to backhand a transition drill where you send every ball to your opponents forehand and they're making you transition between the two. After your forehand stroke what you want to do to get ready for your backhand, is NOT turn your wrist to transition to your backhand. What you want to do is actually use your index finger, provide enough pressure that it forces your paddle to turn. And then do a backhand.

Why train your wrist to turn in between shots when your finger pressure can turn the paddle for you.


I have so much more to talk about with finger pressure on grips and how some grips will cause finger pressure issues to be more prevelent. But I think trying to explain it all would be my longest post by far.

There will be weaknesses and strengths to every grip, what's important is knowing what those strengths and weaknesses are.

Oh and finger pressure is important with ALL grips


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Shuki, you can't turn your paddle enough with finger pressure alone. The wrist needs to move if you want any more than maybe half an inch of movement.

Perhaps it'd be more correct to say that if you start the movement with the finger pressure, it's a lot better. I didn't actually realize that's how I was doing it all along: just using the wrist seems to over rotate my wrist. Thanks for that one.

@UpSideDownCarl

What exactly is wrong? If you have a grip that's very non-neutral, won't it be harder to get the angle to do some shots and it'll be difficult/impossible/painful to apply finger pressure during contact on some strokes?

Isn't it better to have a default grip that doesn't do anything "really badly" in case you get caught out and then change the grip around to do some specific shots better?

Also, Musa. IIRC he has a very Hasegawa style grip for loops, with the index finger up on the blade face. Yet you see how much spin he generates. So as long as you get the fundamentals right, I guess you can hold the paddle any damn way you want.
 
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Shuki, you can't turn your paddle enough with finger pressure alone. The wrist needs to move if you want any more than maybe half an inch of movement.

Maybe YOU can't turn the paddle enough with finger pressure alone. But I sure as hell do. I'm not saying the wrist doesn't turn. It's the finger pressure that causes the wrist to turn. No wrist muscles being used to turn it.
 
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Maybe YOU can't turn the paddle enough with finger pressure alone. But I sure as hell do. I'm not saying the wrist doesn't turn. It's the finger pressure that causes the wrist to turn. No wrist muscles being used to turn it.
Yes, exactly. But you worded it in a way that some beginner could easily go and just start applying tons of pressure with the index finger until they finally figure out that they're not supposed to try to bore a hole through it without moving the wrist. :p
 
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Yes, exactly. But you worded it in a way that some beginner could easily go and just start applying tons of pressure with the index finger until they finally figure out that they're not supposed to try to bore a hole through it without moving the wrist. :p

I also used words like I need to make a video about it. because it goes pretty in depth. That was the shortened version of how I could explain finger pressure and grip. To the way you interpreted it, I would say something like;

Imagine you're doing a relaxed forehand loop and how your wrist drops down a bit as you start going forward with your stroke, you didn't force your wrist to do that, it just happened when the foreward momentum of your stroke pulled it in that direction since your wrist was relaxed. Same concept, here, relaxed wrist gets moved very easily by the finger pressure.
 
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