Question about Shakehand variations

Shuki said:

I also used words like I need to make a video about it. because it goes pretty in depth. That was the shortened version of how I could explain finger pressure and grip. To the way you interpreted it, I would say something like;

Imagine you're doing a relaxed forehand loop and how your wrist drops down a bit as you start going forward with your stroke, you didn't force your wrist to do that, it just happened when the foreward momentum of your stroke pulled it in that direction since your wrist was relaxed. Same concept, here, relaxed wrist gets moved very easily by the finger pressure.

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Yes, that's better. I've been doing that forever since I heard a tip from some coach to turn your wrist over when transitioning, but yours goes more in depth into HOW you should turn the wrist over.

An added benefit, at least for me, is that it's easy and pretty much automatic to go into a backhand grip this way.

I like straight handles more because I feel it to be easier to do this compared to flared.

Archosaurus said:

Also, Musa. IIRC he has a very Hasegawa style grip for loops, with the index finger up on the blade face. Yet you see how much spin he generates. So as long as you get the fundamentals right, I guess you can hold the paddle any damn way you want.

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Hey, sorry buddy. I get to see the guy play all the time. He can do anything he wants and has an amazing forehand. He changes grips all the time. But there is not much that is neutral about any of his grips.

ZJK has one of the most all out BH grips in the game. There is nothing neutral about it either. Musa has an all out FH grip much of the time. Somehow ZJK hits a pretty decent FH and Musa hits a pretty decent BH. This is in spite of how they both have very biased grips.

And the idea that the index finger going up being a sign of the grip being too tight, well, then how is Musa's grip so loose? Have you ever seen him play? I see him from feet away on a regular basis.

I remember seeing a video of Waldner showing how he changes grips from FH to BH. He definitely showed that he takes his index finger higher on FH and lower on BH.

All the pros do different things. If you ever watch Timo, he has a giant grip switch from FH to BH. So the idea of a neutral grip and what the pros do, well, they all do something different so that could be a big time confusing direction.

What NextLevel said is worth understanding:

NextLevel said:

As long as your brain is doing these changes quickly and without prompting, it is okay. As long as you play enough and practice enough to support these transitions, all is well. The problem is when you have complex transitions that cannot be supported by your practice. This will lead to being caught with the wrong grip for a stroke more than you would like.

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The whole quote is worth reading as well. It puts where a neutral grip is valuable into context.

NextLevel said:

DerEchte, I made a video for Shuki that makes the same point you are making. When learning the basic strokes, coaches recommend you use a neutral grip so that you are not too slow to play any strokes or your game doesn't suffer from slow transitions. Using a very biased grip will make you want to use the side it favors more. But as you get better and play much more, you may find certain grips facilitate certain shots more easily. As long as your brain is doing these changes quickly and without prompting, it is okay. As long as you play enough and practice enough to support these transitions, all is well. The problem is when you have complex transitions that cannot be supported by your practice. This will lead to being caught with the wrong grip for a stroke more than you would like.

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Carl, if you keep the finger high on the blade face, BUT you also incorrectly press on the handle with the rest of your hand, there's a tendency for the finger to go even more up.

Musa's grip is fine even with the Hasegawa finger placement because he's not death gripping the handle with the lower fingers. Most lower players who use a grip like that are not even half as relaxed.

Musa's grip is actually a really good forehand grip. Technically your lever is a bit longer. I would myself never play with a grip like that because I don't think I could transition to a good backhand, and my priority is a clean game overall: I don't exactly have the skill to accentuate one part of my game so much and not compromise the rest.

Archosaurus said:

Also, Musa. IIRC he has a very Hasegawa style grip for loops, with the index finger up on the blade face. Yet you see how much spin he generates. So as long as you get the fundamentals right, I guess you can hold the paddle any damn way you want.

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How can you be recalling this? Please tell me how you knew of Musa before Carl wrote about him. Please. There is nothing wrong with using Google to look up stuff, but it's hard to recall players whose prime was before you were born.

NextLevel said:

How can you be recalling this? Please tell me how you knew of Musa before Carl wrote about him. Please. There is nothing wrong with using Google to look up stuff, but it's hard to recall players whose prime was before you were born.

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I've seen him playing in some clubs in the US in videos, but I'm not saying I've been there to see him in his prime when he was younger. I think it's pretty obvious that my knowledge of him comes from recordings and other historic records.

He's not exactly so obscure that I'd never run into him.

Also, ITTF articles on past olympics mention him. I actually have never seen him play in a "serious" game, so I'll go look up if I can find video from the olympics.


This is him, right?

Yeah, its hard to see what he is actually doing from that video.

Archosaurus said:

I've seen him playing in some clubs in the US in videos, but I'm not saying I've been there to see him in his prime when he was younger. I think it's pretty obvious that my knowledge of him comes from recordings and other historic records.

He's not exactly so obscure that I'd never run into him.

Also, ITTF articles on past olympics mention him. I actually have never seen him play in a "serious" game, so I'll go look up if I can find video from the olympics.

This is him, right?

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I've never see any video of him online playing in his prime. So I was just curious what you were remembering correctly and what context you came across him in (which you haven't provided, BTW).

Yeah. It's true. How had you heard of Atanda Musa aside from my comment? Or was it comments I made in other threads a few years ago.

I mean, who is going to hear of a player who was in his prime in 1982 and whose biggest achievements were being a star player in Nigeria and winning the Good Will Games? How would he come up on searches without the search already having his name?

In the end, it doesn't really matter though.


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Having a Nigerian table tennis player on your forum, and being curious as to what Nigeria's table tennis history and current level is probably helps...

But, alas, I can't find any good video. Supposedly he's damn good, but I've never seen him really go at it. All I remembered is the great loops and the Hasegawa grip.

It's funny. I just did this Google search: Nigerian Table Tennis Player. Musa came up on only one link and he was buried. I never would have found him without already knowing his name. He was the 6th name on the 3rd link.

But to me, it doesn't matter if you took the name and searched and watched how he plays. And you did have the name Hasegawa too, so....credit for research anyway.

If you see how Musa holds the racket in person it is easy to see that he holds it like nobody else. It is different than Hasegawa and Musa is way lower on the handle a lot of the time. And, again, he is constantly changing the grip shot by shot.

One time I asked him--years ago, in that club in Chinatown you found footage from (NYTTF), which closed about 5 years ago--about his grip. He said, "you see, yeah, I can hold the racket however I want. It doesn't matter!" He has said something similar about rackets: "I know how to play. I can play with anything. I can use whatever I want!"

Since his prime was early 80s to mid 80s (1982-1985) I doubt you will find video footage from his prime.

But, nevertheless, if you see him play from close up, you will see that the idea of neutral or standard grips may not apply to pro level players. But that a relaxed grip is quite helpful. His grip is more relaxed than I can imagine. I have actually watched and wondered how the racket doesn't fly out of his hand. Hahaha.



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Boogar said:

Blick?

So to conclude your arguments: The most important thing is a loose grip, but not too lose.
Concentrate on getting a good grip with index finger and thumb to feel the rubber and use the other fingers to support it but not too tight.

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Boogar, I thought I had edited my post but I quoted myself and edited the text in the quote. To cut the edited text, so I could paste it into the original text, I had to leave the posted with quoted text saying something. I could not cut, and then delete in one action. And because I am in deep space as you can see (or was it on a subway train in NYC), the connection is intermittent, so, I could not do all of it on my Abacus at once. The internet connection, the beads and sticks, something went wrong. And so you saw that meaningful post: "Blick!"

And if I reveal any more trade secrets, the goon squad will surely be coming after me yet again.


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I guess I should have used the term "standard grip" instead of "neutral" grip.

My reasoning was that because we're not as good as Musa, who indeed can probably play so well he'd beat most of us with a spoon, we shouldn't get too specialized with our grips because then the rest of the game will completely fall apart.

If I'm completely wrong, enlighten me. This is just what I've heard from coaches and it seems true from experience.

Boogar said:

I think one should experiment alot and find the grips you like the most. Ofc not letting go of the basic principles.

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For sure. How else would Musa and other players got the grips they have? Coaches also talk about not "denying" a developing player's grip if they can make it work. Some people are just made for some grips.

Just do it smartly, I guess.

Interesting Archo: I thought you didn't have access to coaches and coaching. Where have you heard all this from?

Still, what you are saying now is not like when you said that the finger pointing up was an indication of too tight a grip.


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Free internet resources and coaches' answers on the internet. I think if I talked to a coach in person they would say the same.

Carl, did I say that? I can only remember "Let me tell you that you were gripping the handle, and you still are. That's why your index finger goes up on the rubber on every forehand. "


Boogar's reason for the finger and Musa's reason for the finger are probably different, you see. I also had a grip like that when my grip was too tight in the wrong place. It's not that having the finger there is wrong per se.

Archosaurus said:

Free internet resources and coaches' answers on the internet. I think if I talked to a coach in person they would say the same.

Carl, did I say that? I can only remember "Let me tell you that you were gripping the handle, and you still are. That's why your index finger goes up on the rubber on every forehand. "


Boogar's reason for the finger and Musa's reason for the finger are probably different, you see. I also had a grip like that when my grip was too tight in the wrong place. It's not that having the finger there is wrong per se.

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IT's good practice to refer to your sources. Otherwise, you might get expelled for rampant plagiarism in college.

Fakeroo Bonzai.

That is one hell of a job of double-speak you did here:

Archosaurus said:

Carl, did I say that? I can only remember "Let me tell you that you were gripping the handle, and you still are. That's why your index finger goes up on the rubber on every forehand. "

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The reason his index finger goes up is because he is gripping too tightly and you have not seen him in person. And someone else whose index finger goes up, it's not because he is gripping too tightly and yet, you haven't seen him either.

It is funny how you are still comfortable pretending you know things you don't know.

But, like NextLevel has said, you have your own unique way of using this forum to learn stuff. Expert on all things you have never experienced. Beware of the mistakes of the anal....analytical mind. Alone in a room with a glowing screen you could think you know what you are talking about. Then faced with reality, it turns out that Booger's technique, at least from the video records, seems to be WAY BETTER THAN YOURS.

Archosaurus said:

Boogar's reason for the finger and Musa's reason for the finger are probably different, you see. I also had a grip like that when my grip was too tight in the wrong place. It's not that having the finger there is wrong per se.

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See, here is the problem with your reasoning. You think that the reason Booger's finger went up is because, when your finger went up, YOU THINK it was because your grip was too tight. But then there is an example of someone else whose finger is up and you do Fakeroo Bonzai Double Speak. When the fact is, the finger can be up or down and you can have a relaxed or a tight grip and you just are trying to pretend you know things you don't. LOL.

But it is okay. This is really just entertaining stuff. Keep being that know-it-all Archo. We don't mind. We get a good laugh. And newer forum members figure it out over time.

Archosaurus said:

Free internet resources and coaches' answers on the internet. I think if I talked to a coach in person they would say the same.

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See, I think this highlights the flaws in how your try to use your intellect and get in trouble. Directions that are about something specific for a specific circumstance, need to be put into context. You are frequently taking information that you get off the Internet and plugging it in without understanding the context or how the information actually fits. So information that may have originally been presented in a useful context, you often find ways of turning it into something not so useful.

Hopefully you learn to stop doing this before it gets you into real life trouble. Because, on the forum here, we all actually like you so we give you a lot of leeway for some of the silly things you've said. But one day you will run into a situation where this tendency backfires on you.



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So it's about the ever important context? I suppose, I'm not going to argue.

Perhaps to clarify, I don't mean to say that finger up = tight grip. It's case of which came first, the chicken or the egg?

You can have the finger all the way up on the blade face, yet have your grip relaxed.
A tight grip will sometimes result in the finger going up on the blade face at the end of the stroke.

Does it mean that the finger being up on the blade face always means a tight grip? Surely not, right, because the culprit is somewhere else.