Fundamentals of shakehand vs penhold grip

says what [IMG]
Fingers should control the paddle and should not hinder or limit wrist motion.

If you have any more questions, ask away. There are only a few penholders with RPB out there.

What do you feel are the advantages over shakehand in a tactical sense? Ie: because of the grip, you have a faster/slower transition into a FH loop from the middle if you were doing backhands etc.
 
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What do you feel are the advantages over shakehand in a tactical sense? Ie: because of the grip, you have a faster/slower transition into a FH loop from the middle if you were doing backhands etc.

transistions are about the same.

i know some of this been said quite a few times over the internet, but I will say them again.

Advantages

1) better feeling for short ball, because of the three fingers behind the paddle. pushing is also easier because you are pushing with the same side of the paddle.

2) more wrist available for the forehand means higher potential for high quality shots. what i mean is that penhold players can make higher quality forehands shots since their ability to use wrist is greater than that of shakehand players.

3) more wrist for backhand flips. same arguments as those above.

4) three fingers behind the paddle vs shakehands one finger behind the paddle. theoretically, this should let penholders handle forehand ball collisions way better. theoretically. especially since the three fingers go in the middle of the paddle.

Disadvantages

1) Too much wrist freedom may create poor technique. i have seen too many penhold casual players have crappier technique that those of casual shakehand players since the freedom of the wrist lets them do whatever they want with it. since casuals dont know what to do with it, come up with some crazy technique.

the freedom of the wrist also makes penhold very difficult to learn.

2) too much wrist freedom means a fast moving ball can actually change the angle of your racket and push your paddle backwards, if your wrist isnt strong enough. it is not a good thing since you want full control over your racket. a change in your racket angle can cause really bad ball collisions. the shakehand grip is a little more firm.

3) fingers in the middle of the paddle means that your RPB shots have to be near perfect. otherwise, you might hit your fingers.
 
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here is my penhold grip

One picture is more than 1000 words...

Here is my RPB grip.


I injured myself when the 3 fingers behind the racket are straight, like in the picture.

Now they are bent and I never had any discomfort in the last 3 years of playing.
 

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Hey Archosaurus, and thanks for this thread! I'm a lefty, currently trying to transition from shakehand to penhold and I've been searching for information and advice about the grip, to avoid learning strokes with the wrong grip.

How important is the wrapping of the thumb and index? How does it effect the stroke?
What I've seen coach explain is that the thumb is really important in forehand. It helps control the bat angle and close it a bit more, especially for topspin play. As for the index, it's more important on the RPB as songdavid98 explained, as it will guide the backhand stroke, so for that kind of strokes, it must grip the bat more tightly than on forehand. In the contrary, the thumb pressure is less important for RPB. I think it's explained by Wang Hao and the coach at one point in the video of your first post.

What about the other fingers: can you for example RPB with straight fingers or is there a definite reason why it's bad?
I'm struggling with those other fingers as well, for the moment. When watching Wang Hao or Xu Xin, it looks like they apply quite a lot of pressure on the back side of the bat. I've been trying that those days. But as for the fingers position, it looks like they "should" be slightly bent, I think. It's really interesting to read songdavid explanations about this ;)
 
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Hello Pierre !

I agree about importance of the thumb. In violin playing, the thumb is like a pillar, very important and it's certainly the reason I rather liked forehand with penhold grip. And I didn't penhold backhand as well according to the thumb less useful ...

I am still nostalgic about penhold grip !
 
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Hello Pierre !

I agree about importance of the thumb. In violin playing, the thumb is like a pillar, very important and it's certainly the reason I rather liked forehand with penhold grip. And I didn't penhold backhand as well according to the thumb less useful ...

I am still nostalgic about penhold grip !

I'm a violin player too (since I was 8, now 18)! Also, the thumb is just as important for the backhand, it just gets less attention. Keep reading.

Hey Archosaurus, and thanks for this thread! I'm a lefty, currently trying to transition from shakehand to penhold and I've been searching for information and advice about the grip, to avoid learning strokes with the wrong grip.


What I've seen coach explain is that the thumb is really important in forehand. It helps control the bat angle and close it a bit more, especially for topspin play. As for the index, it's more important on the RPB as songdavid98 explained, as it will guide the backhand stroke, so for that kind of strokes, it must grip the bat more tightly than on forehand. In the contrary, the thumb pressure is less important for RPB. I think it's explained by Wang Hao and the coach at one point in the video of your first post.


I'm struggling with those other fingers as well, for the moment. When watching Wang Hao or Xu Xin, it looks like they apply quite a lot of pressure on the back side of the bat. I've been trying that those days. But as for the fingers position, it looks like they "should" be slightly bent, I think. It's really interesting to read songdavid explanations about this ;)

As for the other fingers, they have to be slightly bent. They are there to sort of act like shock absorbers or springs when you do an RPB stroke. You will screw up your fingers if you play with straight fingers.

The back three fingers and the thumb are actually just as necessary for the forehand and the backhand. This because you also use these same fingers for opening and closing the paddle. I actually do apply a lot of pressure with my back three fingers when I do RPB. Most people trying to learn the RPB don't do this and they don't really know how to open their paddle when doing RPB. Do they just end up with a really closed paddle and they go straight to the net.
 
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Hello:

As an oldschool penholder, I was taught to curl the fingers in the back loosely, not a deathgrip. On FH shots, the thumb grips tighter and index finger is looser and the reverse is true ... on push-blocks (aka "punches") or regular blocks, the thumb is loose and the index finger grips tighter.

I learned but have never mastered the backhand and gave up on training that and rather work my push-blocksmand blocks instead.

HTH.

~osp
 
In my mind, and in a very brief senes, penhold endorses creativity. Players like Ma Lin can do so many things using the penhold grip that would be very difficult - or other times impossible with the shakehand grip. The penhold grip also offers more use of the wrist, meaning that for the short game, it is very good; heavier pushes, faster flicks, better serves etc. This substantial incline in the use of wrist also means that topspins can be better. Coupled with good footwork, the penhold grip can be insanely good - and subsequently better than the shakehand grip in regards to serve and third ball. Then also keep in mind that they can hit a lot of different shots formed from their creativity; chop blocks, no spin chop blocks etc. I've seen so many amazing things performed by the penhold grip that sometimes it just outshines its European counterpart.

However, the penhold grip has a major weakness; technical stability. It can be very hard to develop good technique due to the high use of wrist. Also, the backhand side for the majority of players will be weak, unless they are using rpb. But even then, rpb has its limits compared to the conventional shakehand backhand. Another weakness within the penhold backhand is that rpb is very good for looping, but not so much for topspin, while it is the contrary for the traditional backhand. This can cause a lot of problems.

Ultimately, the penhold grip can be as good as the shakehand grip. However, the pre-requisites are sometimes not fulfilled and that can lead to problems. For the penhold grip, you need great footwork and creativity; and not a lot of people are born with that kind of talent. Also, the penhold grip may not be that popular any more simply because a lot of modern coaches want to have technical players. The stability that the shakehand grip offers a lot of times is more appealing, and significantly easier than the penhold grip. However, I think that some naturally gifted people would be only laying a curse on themselves if they did not use the penhold grip.
 
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I didn't know you were violonist, david, do you play penhold since you started table tennis ?

I am violin teacher, passionate about pedagogy, I released a lot of books, my teaching method is here : www.methodelesseur.fr (in french of course ...)

I am a bit off topic, sorry ...


I've tried out both, and penhold is more comfortable for me. I made my decision to play penhold about 1 month after I started playing 4 years ago.

I don't know any French, but music is a language that we all understand.
 
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Going back to the title of the thread, I would say this:

Anyone who can play RPB penhold can play shakehand not too terribly. (I would be around 1800 or so; I tried playing against my friends, and a lot of fundamentals carry over). However, this doesn't happen the other way around.

If you play RPB penhold well with good fundamentals, you can very easily switch to shakehand and be fine. The fundamentals and skills necessary can carry over to shakehand.

However, if you play shakehand, there's no guarantee you can play penhold decently. There are some things you need to know and learn before you play penhold, like how to hold the paddle and backhand.
 
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Oh boy penhold grip & RPB. Here we go.

I grew up being taught TPB by my brother. I posted this video years ago talking about more curled finger approach. Interestingly enough, I like this curled fingers approach if you twiddle. I did that for a long time playing inverted on one side LP on the other. With fingers more extended, it's nearly impossible to twiddle quickly IMO.


That being said, I've since adopted a more modern penhold style of playing duel inverted and playing much more RPB as compared to TPB. With this change i like the more traditional grip that I first talk about in the video. I feel it gives me more power on the forehand to have the fingers more behind the face of my blade.

As for RPB, I probably should get video but for me when I was a kid (started playing shakehand) my backhand was the strongest part of my game. I honestly don't feel like it's much different. I have a pretty good RPB and I've never felt like I was going to hurt my wrist or anything. Now my fingers? lol. That's a different story. There's so much torque & pressure on those, I get blisters all the time. I have these finger sleevess that are simply awesome if you encounter the same thing. But I digress.

To me if you can throw a Frisbee, you can do RPB. On blocks i don't use hardly any wrist. On counter drives & loops, in addition to arm, torso, etc, I do use a fair amount of wrist. It should be relaxed.

One difference from what I've seen between penhold to shakehand is that say on shots to your elbow, my shakehand partner can lean over and backhand block or counter those shots in. For me, that's really awkward to try with RPB. With penhold, I'm better off TPBing those blocks or moving quicker to play the standard forehand.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Oh boy penhold grip & RPB. Here we go.

I grew up being taught TPB by my brother. I posted this video years ago talking about more curled finger approach. Interestingly enough, I like this curled fingers approach if you twiddle. I did that for a long time playing inverted on one side LP on the other. With fingers more extended, it's nearly impossible to twiddle quickly IMO.


That being said, I've since adopted a more modern penhold style of playing duel inverted and playing much more RPB as compared to TPB. With this change i like the more traditional grip that I first talk about in the video. I feel it gives me more power on the forehand to have the fingers more behind the face of my blade.

As for RPB, I probably should get video but for me when I was a kid (started playing shakehand) my backhand was the strongest part of my game. I honestly don't feel like it's much different. I have a pretty good RPB and I've never felt like I was going to hurt my wrist or anything. Now my fingers? lol. That's a different story. There's so much torque & pressure on those, I get blisters all the time. I have these finger sleevess that are simply awesome if you encounter the same thing. But I digress.

To me if you can throw a Frisbee, you can do RPB. On blocks i don't use hardly any wrist. On counter drives & loops, in addition to arm, torso, etc, I do use a fair amount of wrist. It should be relaxed.

One difference from what I've seen between penhold to shakehand is that say on shots to your elbow, my shakehand partner can lean over and backhand block or counter those shots in. For me, that's really awkward to try with RPB. With penhold, I'm better off TPBing those blocks or moving quicker to play the standard forehand.

Just my 2 cents.


If you can't get the shots to the elbow, then your contact point is wrong. If the ball is going to your elbow, don't hit the ball too late. Hit the ball with your forearm straight out, and use your wrist to guide the ball.
 
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