Crazy Siva vs Fan Zhendong Unbelievable Roller Shot Challenge

UpSideDownCarl · Jul 10, 2016

ttmonster said:
Now I am really intrigued of a video of match play between you too .... this is hilarious stuff !! Most of the people I know who do such things on the table or while trying to give the ball back do it on purpose or for the lack of it

Trust me, if it was on purpose, he would not be my training partner. And those people who do that stuff on purpose, they do it in match play. When I train with someone as much as I do with this guy, I will not play matches with them very often.

There are plenty of guys we have played matches with where he won and I lost. And the same the other way. But we are pretty close in level. But when we do play matches, I do usually win. But it is a matchup thing. I am a touch player. I know how to vary the pace. He has a lot of trouble when one shot is fast and the next shot is slow. Of you keep playing fast at him it is a mistake. The harder you hit at him, the better he is. Giving him a ball with quality and pace gives him balls with better quality and pace.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

ttmonster · Jul 10, 2016

I actually know somebody like this , stands close to the table and takes awkward full swings at everything , and surprisingly everything lands . The moment you change the pace , he has trouble ....

UpSideDownCarl said:
Trust me, if it was on purpose, he would not be my training partner. And those people who do that stuff on purpose, they do it in match play. When I train with someone as much as I do with this guy, I will not play matches with them very often.

There are plenty of guys we have played matches with where he won and I lost. And the same the other way. But we are pretty close in level. But when we do play matches, I do usually win. But it is a matchup thing. I am a touch player. I know how to vary the pace. He has a lot of trouble when one shot is fast and the next shot is slow. Of you keep playing fast at him it is a mistake. The harder you hit at him, the better he is. Giving him a ball with quality and pace gives him balls with better quality and pace.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

pgpg · Jul 10, 2016

Siva Schopenhauer said:
You should teach me how to do it by posting your own video or better stop whining

This particular response deserves a 'dislike' too - it was quite tone deaf and rather rude, while the original comment by Murre5 simply raised a point (valid in my opinion) without any whining, as you put it.

I understand that you are hurt that your effort was in vain and missed the mark. Learn from it - perhaps ease up on 'clickbait' elements and overall 'crazy' image. I'm probably not in your target demographics though, assuming you are trying to market yourself on YouTube with these videos.

Siva Schopenhauer · Jul 10, 2016

pgpg said:
This particular response deserves a 'dislike' too - it was quite tone deaf and rather rude, while the original comment by Murre5 simply raised a point (valid in my opinion) without any whining, as you put it.

I understand that you are hurt that your effort was in vain and missed the mark. Learn from it - perhaps ease up on 'clickbait' elements and overall 'crazy' image. I'm probably not in your target demographics though, assuming you are trying to market yourself on YouTube with these videos.

It seemed rude to me like the way my comment seemed rude to you cos conversation was already over on that subject, many had already addressed what went wrong and I already thanked them for that.

What's the point of repeating the same again?

I am generally nice and repectful to everyone but I don't see the need for haters cos Haters are gonna be haters anyway

Archosaurus · Jul 10, 2016

Siva, stop. You're starting to sound like me.

ttmonster · Jul 10, 2016

Siva, I have to respectfully disagree with your last comment, you have to accept that you get riled up and you do react inappropriately occasionally. Come on, we all do at times, but unless you accept your issue you can never make any progress.

Can you tell me why you are posting your serving like "so and so" videos on facebook and asking people to follow them , we already discussed here that the serves are good but they are not pro serves and you have yet to go some distance when you can reach pro level where your serves could be used as examples for others to learn and I thought you seemed to agree.

I see you giving advice to JediJesse in another thread, whose form is way better than yours is currently.

I also saw you make a comment somewhere that this forum is full of amateurs who are pretending to be Pros .

The thing is looking at videos made by amateurs or semi pros and comparing them with the International level table tennis video is not easy. its very easy to be not able to understand how many hours of training ( guided or in some cases misguided

) they have put in when you see a "Ma Long" looping next.

What I am trying to say is it goes both ways , there will be always a gap in perception of somebody's real level unless you play them in person , or you may get an idea if you see them playing "matches" with a ton of different opponents whose level you know or can correctly perceive .

For example, after seeing Boogar playing so many people we know have an approximate idea of his level and you would have seen NL say that his touch is very good and its very difficult to see that from his videos.

This is what I think and you can take it or leave it , if you are going to use "hyperbole" in the descriptions of your video to promote them , or pop culture references to explain your reactions its going to be very difficult for you to find fan followers in a forum where most of the people take the sport as a serious hobby ... and for all I know I might be wrong

Siva Schopenhauer · Jul 10, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Siva, stop. You're starting to sound like me.

Lol, That was funny man, You generally do good, not so aggressive or rude man

Siva Schopenhauer · Jul 10, 2016

ttmonster said:
Siva, I have to respectfully disagree with your last comment, you have to accept that you get riled up and you do react inappropriately occasionally. Come on, we all do at times, but unless you accept your issue you can never make any progress.

Can you tell me why you are posting your serving like "so and so" videos on facebook and asking people to follow them , we already discussed here that the serves are good but they are not pro serves and you have yet to go some distance when you can reach pro level where your serves could be used as examples for others to learn and I thought you seemed to agree.

I see you giving advice to JediJesse in another thread, whose form is way better than yours is currently.

I also saw you make a comment somewhere that this forum is full of amateurs who are pretending to be Pros .

The thing is looking at videos made by amateurs or semi pros and comparing them with the International level table tennis video is not easy. its very easy to be not able to understand how many hours of training ( guided or in some cases misguided ) they have put in when you see a "Ma Long" looping next.

What I am trying to say is it goes both ways , there will be always a gap in perception of somebody's real level unless you play them in person , or you may get an idea if you see them playing "matches" with a ton of different opponents whose level you know or can correctly perceive .

For example, after seeing Boogar playing so many people we know have an approximate idea of his level and you would have seen NL say that his touch is very good and its very difficult to see that from his videos.

This is what I think and you can take it or leave it , if you are going to use "hyperbole" in the descriptions of your video to promote them , or pop culture references to explain your reactions its going to be very difficult for you to find fan followers in a forum where most of the people take the sport as a serious hobby ... and for all I know I might be wrong

Hey, it ok man bro, i get your point. I already posted previously in the forum that I am growing my youtube channel, there is nothing to be discreet about it. If you didn't see that post, you could go back few pages and find it.

Regarding Facebook, Who said it is wrong and who gives authority for some to say it is wrong. Since you know about what I am doing with my Facebook, you would have also known that many people like what I do. Why do you see that in a bad way.

It was made clear that my serves are not pro level and I am not claiming any. i like to work on them and feel comfortable to share them, I also share those videos on reddit and the people over there really love what I do.

Regarding giving advice to JediJesse, It comes back again to authority, who gives right for oneself to claim they are right and wrong. I wanted to help him, so I contributed with what I can, Did I say his form is wrong and or write something negative about it. Even if I said something controversial we can debate on it, but I don't see that you have any right on me to say what I should or should not do.

Regarding the comment, it was an indiscreet comment to some haters. First of all, it seems to me there are not a lot of pro's around here but a bunch of serious hobbyist. And serious hobbyist meant amateurs. I don't see why you take offense on that. Being amateur and acting like a pro seems foolish to some amateurs.

I agree with gaps on perception, for a very long time I felt my form was fine but now through the help of the community, I understand that they aren't so I have to work on them.

Regarding hyperbole, if you check every Youtube video, 99.9% are hyperboles, if you take offense on that, if you are fair it would make sense to stop using youtube next time you see a hyperbole. I don't see any need to be a partisan on that. On this issue I am being pretty straight.

I am not looking for fan following for real serious, I am working on my channel so that some people find it useful. It wouldn't be useful for serious hobbyist who are at higher technical well than me. I respect your thought but there are many normal hobbyist who aren't that technical and i see that they would find my work entertaining.

Regarding riled up, yeah it happens since I am too a human.

Regarding pro's, I am not trying to discredit them or hijack their efforts, like last time if you felt that it was funny, I don't really have any issues.

Since, you pointed this out, i am planning to link my version of Mizutani serve to Mizutani's twitter handle. Lets see how he takes it. Then we will come to know who is having problem whether it is pros or serious hobbyists.

ttmonster · Jul 10, 2016

Thanks for the detailed insight ... best of luck in your pursuit man !

Siva Schopenhauer · Jul 10, 2016

ttmonster said:
Thanks for the detailed insight ... best of luck in your pursuit man !

Thanks a lot for understanding bro, I appreciate your comment!

NextLevel · Jul 10, 2016

Siva Schopenhauer said:
Regarding giving advice to JediJesse, It comes back again to authority, who gives right for oneself to claim they are right and wrong. I wanted to help him, so I contributed with what I can, Did I say his form is wrong and or write something negative about it. Even if I said something controversial we can debate on it, but I don't see that you have any right on me to say what I should or should not do.

Regarding the comment, it was an indiscreet comment to some haters. First of all, it seems to me there are not a lot of pro's around here but a bunch of serious hobbyist. And serious hobbyist meant amateurs. I don't see why you take offense on that. Being amateur and acting like a pro seems foolish to some amateurs.

I don't think he takes offense to it and neither do I. The issue is whether you have even worked with people or have the experience to support what you are saying with insight. TT is one of those sports that some people watch and go "I will be 2300 in 3 months since I am 1900 today and I know what these pros are doing." Yes, 1900 players have such delusions too sometimes.

IT's much more difficult to be insightful *and* helpful in this sport than some think. Even when I am coaching people, I know how I want the final form to look, but I have to deal with so many issues and try so many things before I can get them to where I Want to get them to. And then when I get them there, I want to add other subtle elements and the students almost get frustrated because they think that they have already arrived at their destination, so to speak.

When I started out online, I used to believe that everyone who posted their videos or spoke about TT online knew more about TT than I did. I used to listen to all manner of Equipment Junkies (and I am one by the way, I just don't post as naively as some who would have you believe that a rubber would transform your game) who would tell me this or that wonderful thing about that blade or rubber. IT was when I started knowing their USATT Ratings or seeing videos of them online that I got a better idea of what was happening. Many of such players drove away some of the high level players or pros who would post online trying to help amateurs because of how such players would either insult pros or debate the pros strenuously without ceding the experience of the pros as giving credibility beyond those of the amateurs.

Table tennis is a lot about experience or just hanging around good players so I avoid seriously debating higher level players than myself or even players who have coached a lot of good players even when they do not play well themselves. I might ask questions, or even ask questions suggesting disagreement, but I will always defer to the player's level or success as explicitly as I can. When a pro tells you something, unless you work with them, you can't really understand the number of hours they have spent hitting the ball and learning from coaches. The only advantage you have over them when it comes to coaching yourself is your relevant experience with your own limitations. OF course pros who have coached are more insightful than those who have not - being a better player is not everything as teaching is a skill heavily informed by experience.

I have spoken about my own moderate sources of credibility (working with my own coach for about 5 years as well as players close to my level from being close to a beginner at an age where I can speak more consciously about what they told me - it would be different if I had started as a kid) as well as working with TTEdge, to which Brett has brought some of the most insightful analysis of strokes I have ever seen. I have also seen aspects of developing other players during my time with my coach and playing at tournaments. Without the TTEdge experience especially and my experience play lots of tournaments and trying to fix issues (often successfully) that I have in my game, I would not even bother trying to help anyone.

As long as people are willing to put their experience in this sport and video of their play next to their advice, I am willing to let them say anything they want. But what often happens is that people will say things and others will assume they are experts. It's because most adult learners are not experienced enough to ask the right questions about where the advice is coming from.

Siva Schopenhauer · Jul 10, 2016

NextLevel said:
I don't think he takes offense to it and neither do I. The issue is whether you have even worked with people or have the experience to support what you are saying with insight. TT is one of those sports that some people watch and go "I will be 2300 in 3 months since I am 1900 today and I know what these pros are doing." Yes, 1900 players have such delusions too sometimes.

IT's much more difficult to be insightful *and* helpful in this sport than some think. Even when I am coaching people, I know how I want the final form to look, but I have to deal with so many issues and try so many things before I can get them to where I Want to get them to. And then when I get them there, I want to add other subtle elements and the students almost get frustrated because they think that they have already arrived at their destination, so to speak.

When I started out online, I used to believe that everyone who posted their videos or spoke about TT online knew more about TT than I did. I used to listen to all manner of Equipment Junkies (and I am one by the way, I just don't post as naively as some who would have you believe that a rubber would transform your game) who would tell me this or that wonderful thing about that blade or rubber. IT was when I started knowing their USATT Ratings or seeing videos of them online that I got a better idea of what was happening. Many of such players drove away some of the high level players or pros who would post online trying to help amateurs because of how such players would either insult pros or debate the pros strenuously without ceding the experience of the pros as giving credibility beyond those of the amateurs.

Table tennis is a lot about experience or just hanging around good players so I avoid seriously debating higher level players than myself or even players who have coached a lot of good players even when they do not play well themselves. I might ask questions, or even ask questions suggesting disagreement, but I will always defer to the player's level or success as explicitly as I can. When a pro tells you something, unless you work with them, you can't really understand the number of hours they have spent hitting the ball and learning from coaches. The only advantage you have over them when it comes to coaching yourself is your relevant experience with your own limitations. OF course pros who have coached are more insightful than those who have not - being a better player is not everything as teaching is a skill heavily informed by experience.

I have spoken about my own moderate sources of credibility (working with my own coach for about 5 years as well as players close to my level from being close to a beginner at an age where I can speak more consciously about what they told me - it would be different if I had started as a kid) as well as working with TTEdge, to which Brett has brought some of the most insightful analysis of strokes I have ever seen. I have also seen aspects of developing other players during my time with my coach and playing at tournaments. Without the TTEdge experience especially and my experience play lots of tournaments and trying to fix issues (often successfully) that I have in my game, I would not even bother trying to help anyone.

As long as people are willing to put their experience in this sport and video of their play next to their advice, I am willing to let them say anything they want. But what often happens is that people will say things and others will assume they are experts. It's because most adult learners are not experienced enough to ask the right questions about where the advice is coming from.

In my post on Jedi, I wrote about he should work on his contact, that is the missing link to his game. What do you think about that? When I see his game, his movement is much better than mine but he is missing his brush during many strokes. I ll leave it to your analysis on that.

NextLevel · Jul 11, 2016

Siva Schopenhauer said:
In my post on Jedi, I wrote about he should work on his contact, that is the missing link to his game. What do you think about that? When yourI see his game, his movement is much better than mine but he is missing his brush during many strokes. I ll leave it to your analysis on that.

Yes, I read the comment when I was busy yesterday and kinda understood what you were getting at even if I didn't fully agree. So how would you get him to work on his brush on the shots you think he lacked it? That's part of what would get your message across as well.

Siva Schopenhauer · Jul 11, 2016

NextLevel said:
Yes, I read the comment when I was busy yesterday and kinda understood what you were getting at even if I didn't fully agree. So how would you get him to work on his brush on the shots you think he lacked it? That's part of what would get your message across as well.

That part I don't intend to answer owing to limited experience. What works for me ie. serve practise may work or not work for others. so i would leave the solution part to other pundits as well. I answered it cos nobody replied back to his post

NextLevel · Jul 11, 2016

Siva Schopenhauer said:
That part I don't intend to answer owing to limited experience. What works for me ie. serve practise may work or not work for others. so i would leave the solution part to other pundits as well. I answered it cos nobody replied back to his post

So while our personalities and stylesee are different, I would say something like this:

Your game looks pretty good and you likely play at a higher level than I do. Sometimes, and take this for what it is coming from someone at my level, I am not sure you get enough brush when looping on some of your shots. It seems you have trouble with serving with spin. Some of my limited improvement on this issue has come from working on getting more spin on my serves. That may help you too.

Ultimately, most of the posts we amateurs write are really in this tone. It's just that when we have more experience and have experience working with people at the level we are watching, we can speak more confidently. When we don't, we caveat ourselves because we know the danger bad diagnosis can do to someone's game. But you have posted your game play so I think you have the right to say anything you want as long as you are willing to deal with the responses.

Shuki · Jul 11, 2016

NextLevel said:
Even when I am coaching people, I know how I want the final form to look, but I have to deal with so many issues and try so many things before I can get them to where I Want to get them to. And then when I get them there, I want to add other subtle elements and the students almost get frustrated because they think that they have already arrived at their destination, so to speak.

@ NL great post all together, but this part is something that opened my eyes a bit.

When coaching someone, I think all coaches have a vision of what they want a player to do, and when the player doesn't get that down the coach will just keep advising them more and more about how their stroke is wrong. It's extremely difficult to teach someone and not have something to change on their stroke since there will always be something to change.

I like to train beginners a bit on the basics, free of charge of course. I wouldn't charge someone at the level I'm at. I'll have to realize better, when someone is happy with their stroke or not. Sometimes I keep pushing for change on something when maybe I should stop trying to change it. Pushing for the change could potentially only cause frustration on both party's sides. Thank you for this post.

UpSideDownCarl · Jul 11, 2016

Sorry. Something made me think of this.

And now the goon squad is after me again. Darn it. Der_Echte, I need you to bail me out. And this time I know I won't get out of here alive without your help.

You got a bridge for me to jump off of.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus · Jul 11, 2016

It seems every few months someone here is conspired against and made to act a fool, probably due to the action of a certain group. Then, they snap out of it. It seems that the mind control drugs said group is using have a limited time of effect.

First it was me, now it's Siva.

I really do wonder who's next.

NextLevel · Jul 11, 2016

Carl, The Goon Squad again??????

And you were doing so well too... Stop it!

NextLevel · Jul 11, 2016

Shuki said:
@ NL great post all together, but this part is something that opened my eyes a bit.

When coaching someone, I think all coaches have a vision of what they want a player to do, and when the player doesn't get that down the coach will just keep advising them more and more about how their stroke is wrong. It's extremely difficult to teach someone and not have something to change on their stroke since there will always be something to change.

I like to train beginners a bit on the basics, free of charge of course. I wouldn't charge someone at the level I'm at. I'll have to realize better, when someone is happy with their stroke or not. Sometimes I keep pushing for change on something when maybe I should stop trying to change it. Pushing for the change could potentially only cause frustration on both party's sides. Thank you for this post.

Coaching is difficult without a goal in mind. It's part of the reason why it is better for me to work with people who want to win matches at a certain level. It's harder to tell someone who isn't trying to win that what they are doing is not working or will not work down the road. When they bang their heads against the wall a few times doing things their way, then they become more receptive to what you are saying. But if teaching in a club, just use it as a social occasion.

Sometimes, the subtle changes I want are overkill, sometimes they give insights that the other person didn't have before. But if you understand and appreciate how complicated things can be, then you will not lose too much sleep when your few moments of advice do not transform someone. But it is much harder and painful when someone is paying you to change/improve their game. When that happens, you really want to make sure you aren't wasting their time. I personally love to teach so ithat is justill a habit. I just remember what it was like listening to people who wrote well but had no clue what they were saying. Some of them even made sense but their limited experience with practical play limited their ability to convey their ideas practically.

In any case, I don't want to hijack the thread. It's really the thread into an analysis of Internet perceptions of TT instructions and I am okay if Siva wants it to continue in that direction which he started a while back.

Crazy Siva vs Fan Zhendong Unbelievable Roller Shot Challenge

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