Dealing with short, fairly high balls that appear half long

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Essentially, NL is asking you to teach your reflexes on how to move the starting point of the loop depending on the incoming spin with a compact technique, close to the table so that you have to really change the starting point instead of starting from a middle ground and then adjusting it with the bat angle at the last moment. NL , correct me if my break down is wrong.

If you don't have somebody to feed you multiball, you could serve underspin short, ask your partner to push ( on whichever wing you want to train) and loop the third ball and the fifth ball while your partner blocks , again close to the table, on the same wing.

Again, there is another thing that helps is to be consciously aware of where your starting point is.

*** starting point as in the starting point of your blade during the backswing .


One heavy chop, one heavy topspin, alternate feeds. Loop both close to the table. Don't back up.
 
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@UpSideDownCarl

Yanking his chain? Are you implying that I'm joking around and just trolling?

If you're going to think like that and post based on that thought, you shouldn't post. I don't make threads for that purpose.

No, he is saying that you know how to make it sound like you are playing at a higher level than you are. You have done this for so long that we don't think it's intentional trolling. It's just an extreme form of not understanding the reality of where your game is, but having seen and enjoyed enough high level TT to explain your game in terms that thequality of spin you generate probably cannot support quite yet.

In any case, you have received a lot of good answers. Tell us how they work for you. Just know that you probably still can't loop. You may have elements of the former but it's not as straight forward as it seems. We can give tips to help and have but until you realize that having a correct understanding of something intellectually has little correlation with doing it correctly in table tennis, you will be stuck asking these questions while failing to focus on the things that actually can improve your game.
 
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@UpSideDownCarl

Yanking his chain? Are you implying that I'm joking around and just trolling?

If you're going to think like that and post based on that thought, you shouldn't post. I don't make threads for that purpose.

Archo, no need to get angry at people who are trying to help you, like Carl - it's just like getting angry at the dentist because it hurts a little till your teeth get healthy. Opening this thread meant that you are willing to supply the users who are willing to help you the information they request. In this case, some of the most respected members of the forum - Carl, NL and ttmonster are asking you for a video, for the sake of understanding better the issue that has made you to start this thread. They are requesting a video and don't rush to give an immediate answer because of your tendency to overcomplicate things. This tendency is dangerous because it can make the potential answer irrelevant. That's why they keep asking for that video and don't give an immediate answer just based on your description. Though you admit that you tend to overcomplicate things, you are still waiting for an answer based on your overcomplicated and potentially useless explanation of the situation.

So my advice is : first of all don't get angry at Carl, because he isn't doing the wrong thing here. Secondly, if you have a real will for improving your game and solving your problem using advice from this forum, you got to post real game footage of yours. If you are willing to improve without posting video, you got to get a coach that will guide you, and will be, most probably, more efficient than any and all of the threads you've opened or are going to open on this forum regarding different match situations, fixing technique, etc.
 
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Archo, no need to get angry at people who are trying to help you, like Carl - it's just like getting angry at the dentist because it hurts a little till your teeth get healthy. Opening this thread meant that you are willing to supply the users who are willing to help you the information they request. In this case, some of the most respected members of the forum - Carl, NL and ttmonster are asking you for a video, for the sake of understanding better the issue that has made you to start this thread. They are requesting a video and don't rush to give an immediate answer because of your tendency to overcomplicate things. This tendency is dangerous because it can make the potential answer irrelevant. That's why they keep asking for that video and don't give an immediate answer just based on your description. Though you admit that you tend to overcomplicate things, you are still waiting for an answer based on your overcomplicated and potentially useless explanation of the situation.

So my advice is : first of all don't get angry at Carl, because he isn't doing the wrong thing here. Secondly, if you have a real will for improving your game and solving your problem using advice from this forum, you got to post real game footage of yours. If you are willing to improve without posting video, you got to get a coach that will guide you, and will be, most probably, more efficient than any and all of the threads you've opened or are going to open on this forum regarding different match situations, fixing technique, etc.

Where is that darn Super LIKE Button when you need it. :)
 
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Carl, NL, you're indeed right in saying that my issue is not what people think it is, or what I say it is. I say it's a technique problem, but it's just an issue of my overall loop stroke not being complete.

I don't have a particularly good loop against no-spin or high balls, and most of these balls are no-spin and somewhat high, usually *actually* short or barely over the edge. Compared to my "forward" loop against topspin or block, the loop I use on these balls is not as good because I hesitate on the positioning of the body and where to take the ball. This thread's objective was to find out more about that.

But, it's indeed not some specific 2000+ level issue that's costing me games. It's simpler than that. Think of sub 1500 level issues.

Archo, words won't help. If you want people to understand the issue and help you, get some footage. Trying to describe the footwork, the body position, someone moving late, being to upright, having the weight in the heels, taking the ball too early, too late, at the top of the bounce, none of this has any relevance without seeing what YOU are actually doing.

So, just go get some footage.

I am not being mean to you. You just don't realize how you fall right into the same patterns and how many times you have done this already. I have nothing against you.

Get some video footage and the information you are given will be based on what you are actually doing, not what you try to describe, which, even if it was accurate, would be open for interpretation. Whereas, with real footage, people will see how to best help you.

I would love to say what my guess is about what is going on, but I know that guessing would be part of what the problem that is going on already is. So, just get some footage.
 
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One heavy chop, one heavy topspin, alternate feeds. Loop both close to the table. Don't back up.

Will give it a shot, but probably would have to adjust to something closer to what ttmonster described (not a lot of multiball in my life). So - the basic idea is that being close to the table forces you into higher backswing and more forward motion (or you'll hit the table etc.)?
 
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Will give it a shot, but probably would have to adjust to something closer to what ttmonster described (not a lot of multiball in my life). So - the basic idea is that being close to the table forces you into higher backswing and more forward motion (or you'll hit the table etc.)?


Not about hitting the table but as ttmonster pointed out about adapting your backswing rapidly to the incoming ball. TTmonster's drill is okay but depends a lot on the discipline of the looper as it is easier to hit a block than it would be to hit heavy topspin and that can lead to suboptimal play/learning. That said, it will force you to not swing from as low a point as if you do, your lower backswing will hit the block off the table. Generally, close to the table play forces you to find the right racket angles quickly or your contact points on the ball will hard to achieve.

Most people get good at looping what they loop most often. I only started looping topspin decently in the last half year or so. You probably loop mostly backspin because you are a chopper and no one is forcing you to loop topspin at the levels you play at.
 
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Not about hitting the table but as ttmonster pointed out about adapting your backswing rapidly to the incoming ball. TTmonster's drill is okay but depends a lot on the discipline of the looper as it is easier to hit a block than it would be to hit heavy topspin and that can lead to suboptimal play/learning. That said, it will force you to not swing from as low a point as if you do, your lower backswing will hit the block off the table. Generally, close to the table play forces you to find the right racket angles quickly or your contact points on the ball will hard to achieve.

Most people get good at looping what they loop most often. I only started looping topspin decently in the last half year or so. You probably loop mostly backspin because you are a chopper and no one is forcing you to loop topspin at the levels you play at.

Ah - I'm also being somewhat dense here - of course looping topspin requires more of a forward motion, otherwise angles just don't work. I think...
 
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pgpg, it is going to be a process.

First is learning why you struggle against the dead ball over the table when you are expecting a long ball. From your earlier post you say your swing is too vertical. Is your swing very vertical always or mostly after looping an underspin ball? Is it wrong anticipation? I do that too. Sometimes I expect a ball to my FH that looks like a ball to crush and I prepare too early - bad deal when it comes at me or to BH.

Next is understanding what to do. One way to go about it is to keep bat at table height level on recovery. This will allow you to move forward to address a shorter ball and allow you to handle the forward kind of stroke you need to put away the block of your loop.

Next is getting someone to help. One suggested multiball drill is to have feeder bounce ball on table and poke an underspin ball deep to your FH middle (you are in FH corner) (later have feeder move first ball around) You loop the first ball heavy and focus on keeping bat at table level or so on recovery. Feeder bunts a short no-spin kinda high. You step in and plug that guy at top of bounce. Later, have feeder bunt short no spin balls that are lower. That will require you to move in and either roll or flip those.

It will take a lot of repetition. What NL suggested is a good single ball drill to get you keep bat high enough on recover to cope with next ball. Anything single ball scenario that makes you do a vertical swing (like loop vs underspin) than do a forward (incoming topspin or block) is a good drill to train your mind to keep bat table height on recovery or you fail.
 
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pgpg, it is going to be a process.

First is learning why you struggle against the dead ball over the table when you are expecting a long ball. From your earlier post you say your swing is too vertical. Is your swing very vertical always or mostly after looping an underspin ball? Is it wrong anticipation? I do that too. Sometimes I expect a ball to my FH that looks like a ball to crush and I prepare too early - bad deal when it comes at me or to BH.

Next is understanding what to do. One way to go about it is to keep bat at table height level on recovery. This will allow you to move forward to address a shorter ball and allow you to handle the forward kind of stroke you need to put away the block of your loop.

Next is getting someone to help. One suggested multiball drill is to have feeder bounce ball on table and poke an underspin ball deep to your FH middle (you are in FH corner) (later have feeder move first ball around) You loop the first ball heavy and focus on keeping bat at table level or so on recovery. Feeder bunts a short no-spin kinda high. You step in and plug that guy at top of bounce. Later, have feeder bunt short no spin balls that are lower. That will require you to move in and either roll or flip those.

It will take a lot of repetition. What NL suggested is a good single ball drill to get you keep bat high enough on recover to cope with next ball. Anything single ball scenario that makes you do a vertical swing (like loop vs underspin) than do a forward (incoming topspin or block) is a good drill to train your mind to keep bat table height on recovery or you fail.

This drill is like a basic drill that most attackers do to improve their ability to adapt to the next ball. The problem though in my experience that one can still loop the block with suboptimal paddle recovery.

In any case, anyone want to guess how many players loop over the table balls even 30% consistently and have never done this drill?

The process part is important. It takes time for the mind to adapt. When Brett taught BRS to loop backspin, he didn't give BRS any instructions. After 3 tries of 20 backspin balls, BRS had modified his stroke without any instruction to loop backspin. When Brett told BRS to loop topspin balls, BRS looped them off the table. Brett said that to avoid that, you need to practice against both backspin and topspin in the same practice. That made so much sense to me and explained why I looped backspin and hit/block topspin - I never forced my self to loop topspin and most of my loops were vs backspin so I looped balls off the table.

So I have been working to fix this for a long time now. It's still a process but it is getting better and better.
 
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Why loop a high ball with no-spin, just smack the hell out of it. Watch schlager's video

Link to said video?

Trust me, if you smack balls, your rating is going to be low for a long time. Smacking is something you build up to, not something you do when you are building technique. Schlager is using a technical shot.
 
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Very simple and important truth, difficult for people who have played recreational ping pong for some time and then are trying to unlearn the instincts and learn proper technique ...
Link to said video?

Trust me, if you smack balls, your rating is going to be low for a long time. Smacking is something you build up to, not something you do when you are building technique. Schlager is using a technical shot.
 
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Link to said video?

Trust me, if you smack balls, your rating is going to be low for a long time. Smacking is something you build up to, not something you do when you are building technique. Schlager is using a technical shot.

Not saying you should smack all balls but schlager sometimes fake his serve to get a high 2nd ball, continued by a very strong 3rd ball. Usually this happens when he does his high toss serve.

Anyway, i dont feel like explaining things with a lot of detail will help archo since from what I read, he still doesnt really know how to loop
 
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Not saying you should smack all balls but schlager sometimes fake his serve to get a high 2nd ball, continued by a very strong 3rd ball. Usually this happens when he does his high toss serve.

Anyway, i dont feel like explaining things with a lot of detail will help archo since from what I read, he still doesnt really know how to loop

Yes, but don't gratuitously pile on him. It might superficially seem like this is what we are doing but it is not. Archo's heart is in the right place, but unfortunately, club level table tennis is more complicated to learn than he is giving it credit for. If archo actually lived close to a good club, he might actually become a great net resource over time. I am close to concluding that his approach is inevitable given his age and personality type, but it is what it is.
 
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I totally understand where he is coming from , I can tell from experience , when you transition from being the best player in your office/school where there are no semi-pro or amateurs to challenge you, its very easy to develop this thinking by watching internet videos and as time goes it becomes more and more difficult to change the habit That you will smash everything that seems high to you, and then when you start playing with players who have had more table time compared to you you find out , that players will push with soft hands , even accidentally, your light topspin or no spin serve, it will be seemingly an easy high ball and when you try to smash it either goes to the net or goes out. Its not easy to understand how difficult a smash or punch shot is and how error prone / risky/difficult to consistently execute it is compared to a loop ....
We are all at different stages of learning in different game scenarios and all of us more or less have game situations where we understand the theory but can't execute it properly, unless we pay due respect to the difficulty level of the sport its always easy to live in a bubble and find people to smack around ...

This did make me laugh though. [emoji2]


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Carl, NL, don't worry, I'm not mad. Your advice is good and your urging for a video is appropriate. The biggest offender for giving me these kinds of balls is my regular partner, so when we play again and I film from a potentially better spot, you will be seeing a lot of this. I won't be able to immediately change my habits on the advice I've gotten, so it'll still be as bad, or worse from not playing for some time.


On the topic of smacking these: you can't. Not at my level at least. It's not a high, dead, long ball that you can smash comfortably. I think if you were going to hit these hard you would need to have a good loop to begin with.

EDIT: As a funny sidenote, I used to smash high balls when all I got was no spin. Now when my opponents' level of spin has caught up, I'd rather spin them slower and keep the rally going. Maybe if you never have this experience, you don't understand why lobs and chops work.
 
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