Dealing with short, fairly high balls that appear half long

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Do you guys remember what it took for me to get Archo to post that video of him trying to do the bounce ball thing on his racket so we could all see that he did not have the hand stability to brush the ball. And that his rubbers were dead beyond dead approaching antispin. :)
 
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We certainly do, your efforts with certain forum members in the recent past is an online testament of your patience and consideration .... I am somehow convinced the "upsidedown" part of you has something to do with it ..
Do you guys remember what it took for me to get Archo to post that video of him trying to do the bounce ball thing on his racket so we could all see that he did not have the hand stability to brush the ball. And that his rubbers were dead beyond dead approaching antispin. :)
 
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We certainly do, your efforts with certain forum members in the recent past is an online testament of your patience and consideration .... I am somehow convinced the "upsidedown" part of you has something to do with it ..

hahahaha.

Well, in case others forgot:


I think, these days, perhaps, I don't have the time, or perhaps my patience is being utilized somewhere else where I am more immediately needed. :)
 
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David, would you advise a 1400 player to loop short balls over the table?


DerEchte, your solution is better but why not just force the kid to show some damn video before giving him too much advice? He was getting looping lessons from Carl and now he wants to flick and loop balls over the table?


Well everyone has got to start somewhere. You start by trying.

I would advise everyone who knows how to loop to simply trying to loop everything that isn't short and low. They need to become more familiar with the looping stroke and what they can do with it.

My little brother isn't even 1400 and he can do this just fine.
 
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Well everyone has got to start somewhere. You start by trying.

I would advise everyone who knows how to loop to simply trying to loop everything that isn't short and low. They need to become more familiar with the looping stroke and what they can do with it.

My little brother isn't even 1400 and he can do this just fine.

David, when you are around better players, you just absorb things from them. A lot of real learning occurs because of mirror neurons. If archo had someone qualified telling him what to do or to watch in person, he would not be asking the question.

This is not something you tell someone whose technique you have not seen to do. I know people who are better players than myself who have broken paddles or gotten injured when doing this. If your younger brother can copy good players, good for him.
 
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Well everyone has got to start somewhere. You start by trying.

I would advise everyone who knows how to loop to simply trying to loop everything that isn't short and low. They need to become more familiar with the looping stroke and what they can do with it.

My little brother isn't even 1400 and he can do this just fine.

The truth of the matter is, we don't even know if Archo can loop though. We know that, when he filmed the video I posted above, which was a few short months ago, he definitely couldn't. We know, back then, he was telling people way higher level then he was things like: "back when he was as bad as you are......" Anyway, if he can loop, we haven't seen any evidence of it.

But he is a good kid who likes philosophy, theory and likes to talk. He also likes to say things that make people believe they helped him figure out how to do what he was asking about. But often, when you scratch under the surface, it is just talk.

Like, days after we figured out that, for sure, he did not know what a loop was and couldn't do it, he was talking about, "now that I am brushing and getting heavy spin, all of a sudden, and now that I am really looping the ball...." And when push came to shove, he was talking about self hitting balls and the shots he was self hitting had very little spin still.

To be honest, I think he wants to learn. I think he wants to be able to do the things he is talking about. But I think he has this idea that, if you understand the theory, you can do it. And we know, in table tennis, it often takes training and practicing a skill over and over and over and over, hundreds and hundreds of times before you refine the skill. The theory can help. But you have to do the training. Especially if you are starting from a place where you think you can loop but you actually are hitting FLAT, like what Archo is trying to do in that video where he is trying to do that exercise.

With that video above, I had figured out, from the stuff he was saying that Archo actually did not understand brushing the ball, making thin contact or using the topsheet. I sent him this video:


The exercise in question starts at 18 seconds on that video. I asked him to film himself doing that exercise.


From it, you can clearly see, as the ball is coming down, that he does not know how to angle the racket to brush the ball. It is particularly clear on the second contact that he is hitting the ball with the racket at a direct angle and not brushing at all.

So, the tricky part is, figuring out where Archo really is at, at this point.

And, I go back to that original comment by NextLevel: he said: "Video?"

Without it, we don't really know what Archo is actually talking about unless we want to entertain the possibility that he is able to loop short balls from bellow the table.

But, as far as I am concerned, David has done nothing wrong. He gave a good answer that would be quite useful for most. And I think it is okay that he made the assumption that Archo is at a level where he could work on over the table looping. He really might be. But, personally, I think he may be better at looping short balls from under the table!

By the way, years ago, Michael Landers showed me what you need to do to loop over the table. I like to drop my racket low. It took me a long time to be able to keep my racket up for those so that I could loop forward over the table. It was great to work on that even if I wasn't quite ready for it when I was given the information. But, it is important to note, Michael Landers showed me what to do in person, based on something he was seeing me do and his ability to tell that my learning to do that would help me not drop my racket as much when I was looping from mid-distance. That is different from someone wanting written advice through the internet.
 
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A very quick, brief and simple tip (but it's almost always forgotten) is to push long. Long pushes will generally warrant long push returns. Obviously this doesn't work on balls that you're not pushing or have no control of, but if it's the start of the rally and you're touching the ball short, try pushing it long and aggressive. Keep in mind some players might attack it so you can use it as a variation. I find that attacking a heavy topspin ball off a push is easier than trying to attack a half long ball, in most of my experience anyway. It will vary per player and opponent.

People are suggesting either half-volleying/flicking if that's what you were doing or driving/looping if that's what you were doing. Trying to change at the last second often just leads to some giant flurry of confused and rushed body movements to get to a ball which ends up giving them a pretty terrible ball to attack (good for them, bad for you (not what we want) did i just brackets inside of brackets? bruh)
 
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Carl, where the **** is this thread going?

Well, to answer your question as to why I "try" to take short balls from under the table. I've taken it a habit to wait for the ball a bit longer than comfortable and trying to brush it and take it down onto the table with spin, because I had major problems with the contact. It's not a quality shot, but it's a stepping stone. Sometimes, the habit sticks, and due to my lack of vision skill, what I think is a half long ball might go just short. That will cause obvious problems. This thread is about what I should do instead to go further.

Top of the bounce is best because it gives me the most clearance over the net and the ball isn't moving up or down ideally, so it's probably easier to control. I also need to mostly put my own power onto the ball instead of taking it late and letting it drop, or taking it early while it still has velocity. At least, those are the benefits that are relevant to me right now. Is there something else, or are you implying I shouldn't be taking it on the top?
 
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Carl, where the **** is this thread going?

Well, to answer your question as to why I "try" to take short balls from under the table. I've taken it a habit to wait for the ball a bit longer than comfortable and trying to brush it and take it down onto the table with spin, because I had major problems with the contact. It's not a quality shot, but it's a stepping stone. Sometimes, the habit sticks, and due to my lack of vision skill, what I think is a half long ball might go just short. That will cause obvious problems. This thread is about what I should do instead to go further.

Top of the bounce is best because it gives me the most clearance over the net and the ball isn't moving up or down ideally, so it's probably easier to control. I also need to mostly put my own power onto the ball instead of taking it late and letting it drop, or taking it early while it still has velocity. At least, those are the benefits that are relevant to me right now. Is there something else, or are you implying I shouldn't be taking it on the top?

You missed the joke, archo. It is all terminology, even the confusion between your taking the ball early (you meant over the table) and David telling you at the top of the bounce.

If the ball was truly short, it would never come long so you can't loop it off or under the table. That's Carl's point.

In the end, you would have had to develop a much better loop to make all this meaningful. People underestimate how hard table tennis really is ALL THE TIME. On Sunday, I was watching two of my mentors (they both taught me a lot coming up and are both in their late 50s or early 60s) and the younger one was trying to fix the older one's forehand strokes. Now note that at their peaks, the older was 2200+ (he is now in the 1900-2000 range) and the younger one was 2100+ (he is still around that). But right now, the older one's spin game had deteriorated for a variety of reasons and he was now hitting the ball more than spinning it. So the younger one was trying to get him to spin and recover.

Now I know many people who if they hit the ball the way the older one hit it, they would think they were getting immense amounts of spin. He was hitting across his body mostly with arm to get pace since he no longer had the youth to get the core rotation. I had similar issues in my loop which I have worked on immensely. His recovery was too compromised to play close to the table and deal with players with fast blocks. I showed him a couple of things which Brett had shown me to get whip and not come across the body. But fixing his instincts and his game could take him months and it is not clear how big the gain would be.

I tell you that story so that you can understand why some of us shake our heads when you talk like you have made gains that take people months in days. When Boogar was around, I tried to teach him whip mechanics (loose elbow/forearm and loose wrist) to radically improve his forehand quality. Even after making many quality loops in practice, it is still going to take him a lot more time to trust it and bring it into a game. Unless you are practicing at least 3 times a week, taking measurable feed back and continually consolidating gains, you aren't going to radically improve. The one thing that you truly could take to a very high level is the one thing you claim you do very well and have never posted video of - your serves. IT can't be that hard to stick a cell phone in front of the table or behind it and serve, or to even just show drills of you serving on the floor trying to get heavy backspin. But if you can spin the ball on serves, you can spin the ball, period. We might dispute Siva's form, but we cannot dispute his ability to put spin on the ball. The rest is form and contact depth.

Are there people who can't serve who can put spin on the ball? Yes. But it's a different growth process and it is one that you definitely do not have available to you right now.
 
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We should get past whatever personal business you have with Archo.

We should just focus on answering his questions.

Yes, your reasoning for the top of the bounce is correct. For me, the top of the bounce is usually the one-size-fits-all for attacking.

Taking it late is the other option, but you say that you are dealing with short high balls, so it might not even be possible. I've seen players hit nothing but air when they do this.

It may produce a higher slower arc on your loop. This is popular among the older players I've seen.

Trying to take it late requires you have have an upward motion to counter the downward motion of the ball. What Michael Landers says is correct: Dropping the paddle low prevents you from looping over the table because it forces your arm to go upwards.

I've talked about this in another thread, but lot of people don't pay much attention to the backswing.

If you want to break this habit, make sure your backswing is higher.
 
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We should get past whatever personal business you have with Archo.

We should just focus on answering his questions.

David,

You probably never tried to use the internet to get better at table tennis. I did. I remember the long list of players who posted all kinds of trash that I listened to which confused me before I knew what the players actually played like. You don't.

So I can understand why you just want me to answer archo's questions. And I hope you can understand why I can't. In my experience, what is probably happening in his matches is very different from what he thinks is happening. I've seen it with myself and others.

NL
 
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So, yeah, back to the original statement.

If Archo posts some footage you will be able to see what is going on much more easily. You will actually be able to give him a relevant answer that will help him.

But I am pretty sure what he has said is going on and what he actually needs help with are very different.

As NextLevel has said: by definition a short ball is one that bounces twice. You cannot wait for a short ball to come off the end of the table and loop it from lower than the table because when it comes off the end, it has bounced a second time and the point is over.

Half long? What does that mean? Landers calls those "handbreaker length". Some of them have their second bounce right near the edge. Some of them just clear the end by a very small margin. There is a drill for working on looping them. You have someone roll the ball towards the end line, not too fast. And you loop as it passes the edge. Don't use your main racket for that drill or you may need a new one quite quickly. A high level player will be able to loop a handbreaker whether he takes it over the table or as it is coming to the edge. But that is not a skill that most players under 1800 have really refined.

Getting Archo to go through the thought process of why top of the bounce is a good contact timing for an attacking stroke was worth it. It was worth getting him to sort out that part. He actually learned something there. And not something about wanting to imitate Ma Lin jumping into a FH flip. He figured out the most important part which is that you have the most clearance.

I would say, the fact that it is not moving up or down also means you can apply more forward force into the ball as you loop over it which makes looping backspin from the top of the bounce feel like it takes much less effort than when you have to spin up on a ball that is dropping. When you take the ball at the top of the bounce on topspin, as long as your touch us good and you close over it properly you get to use the incoming topspin as your power and it's like you are shooting from a rocket launcher.

Looping forward instead of up, with a high backswing instead of dropping the racket, it is also worth sorting out when and why that is worth doing. Of course, any over the table loop has to be done like that. But there is also a reason why looping forward over heavy topspin is ideal even from mid-distance.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Why do you think the thread became off topic ?

It was on topic and the topic was that you had given some sound advise to Archo and from his replies it appeared he did not get it or what you perceived archo describing might not be what he is actually facing and hence we need a video of the kind of the shots Archo has problems with ....

Not sure if you have followed Carl's travails in this forum to get him to post his video , where we were all just trying to help him but he kept arguing ...

So the response still remains ... video ?

I understand.

I just don't like it when internet threads become off-topic.

Back to the topic: Raise your backswing and spin the ball forward.
 
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Carl, NL, you're indeed right in saying that my issue is not what people think it is, or what I say it is. I say it's a technique problem, but it's just an issue of my overall loop stroke not being complete.

I don't have a particularly good loop against no-spin or high balls, and most of these balls are no-spin and somewhat high, usually *actually* short or barely over the edge. Compared to my "forward" loop against topspin or block, the loop I use on these balls is not as good because I hesitate on the positioning of the body and where to take the ball. This thread's objective was to find out more about that.

But, it's indeed not some specific 2000+ level issue that's costing me games. It's simpler than that. Think of sub 1500 level issues.
 
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So the response still remains ... video ?

Yep. And, unfortunately David doesn't realize just how much Archo has been yanking his own chain and how, in doing so, in this thread, he has succeeded in yanking David's chain as well. But I'm confident that, if we saw footage of what Archo is really talking about, David would have one of those "ah ha moments" and realize what is actually going on here.



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Looping forward instead of up, with a high backswing instead of dropping the racket, it is also worth sorting out when and why that is worth doing. Of course, any over the table loop has to be done like that. But there is also a reason why looping forward over heavy topspin is ideal even from mid-distance.


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What's a good drill/trick to groove this forward motion AND high(er) backswing? It's one of my biggest FH problems, swing that is too vertical. :(
 
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