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    1. Top | #41
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio
      Some tidbits.

      "Playing the way you did is definitely no good. Wake up! Stop spacing out already! There's no spacing out in the arena. Get yourself going! This is the THE Olympics! It's already started. Got it?" LGL told ZJK after the 1st game against Koki Niwa.
      "Finishing my Rio journey as a quarter-finalist. I've got no regret."

      "Ma Long is my idol."

      "I picked up the table tennis racket for the first time when I was seven. Never have I thought I would be able to stand in the arena of a quarterfinal match right here today. I'll keep on playing until the day I couldn't move." ~ Quadri Aruna
      "It's no easy feat to make the quarterfinal as an African player. His wins over CCY and TB mean he's got his own unique traits. I feel that my preparations for this match were pretty comprehensive. His biggest weapon is his very impressive forehand, as well as his footwork and mid-distance play." ~ Ma Long
      "Utter defeat. I've tried everything but simply couldn't fend off her high-quality winners."

      "My opponent had the advantage on all fronts whether it be quality of attacks or quality of returns. Her sheer power is higher than every opponent I faced. Just out of the world. I tried hard to carry out my game plan, but I kept missing, unfortunately. Simply outclassed."

      "The LXX now has already surpassed the then Zhang Yining. I was convincingly defeated." ~ Ai Fukuhara
      More quotes.

    2. Top | #42
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2016 View Post
      I think you are not absolutely right on that.

      My impression is that a lot of people call Aruna's technique inferior because it is not common. It does not look how you would describe a perfect topspin. However, the key elements such as acceleration in hitting point, power, spin they are all there. Consequently, the technique cannot be bad. Otherwise his shots wouldn't be as effective and powerful as they are. That he has some uncommon moves before and after hitting the ball doesn't matter if he has enough time to get ready for the next shot. So finally, his technique is not worse than of most European players. As you said Boll's technique is far from optimum as well and probably it is one of the better ones in Europe.

      But I don't agree with you saying that there is no big technical gap between Chinese players or some other world class players and Aruna. It definitely is. For instance, if you look at Ma Long he always is in the right position, has balance and consistency. It looks as if one shot flows smoothly into the next. Also, his technique is effective in terms of energy consumption. It's similar for all CNT players. In contrast with this, I often get the impression that Aruna almost trips over his own feet. He often lacks stability and is playing on one feet, next to his head or in front of his belly. Every stroke looks different. Of course, in most of the cases he is able to compensate these technical faults with an unbelievable power and athleticism. What makes it more impressive in my eyes. He often has little stability but plays a very hard stroke. Maybe, this is his strenght and weakness at same time because he plays out of such uncommon positions that his opponents are surprised and cannot believe it. Moreover, they are not used to the curve of his uncommon (or unorthodox) technique. Probably, if they play him second or third time they look much better against him. Your argumentation that he only needs some practice with CNT players to adapt to their speed is subjective. I could argue as well that players like Boll or CCY only need some practice with him to adapt to his special style and then he has no more chance to win against them because they have much more variation and experience. They are more complete players.
      You cannot overlook that he has some instability and inconsistency only because he compensates it with will, athletics and fighting. It is as someone said before: he plays more like one stroke after another. Playing one and then thinking about the next. Not like Ma Long playing a whole combination. But these combinations are also part of technique.

      It's the same with his footwork. Aruna is very, very, very fast. He has so much power in his legs that he can reach almost every ball. Besides this physical strength, as mentioned before, he has this rare talent to play fantastic strokes even if he is not in the best position. And that is one impressive part of his game (and technique if your definition includes that). However, in terms of technique his footwork is bad. It seems as if the lacks some kind of coordination. Examples: standing on one foot, stumbling, moving looks more than this of a 100 metres sprinter than of a table tennis player, weight on the wrong foot, ... In my opinion, this is also the reason why he has no chance against Ma Long and CNT. They are playing that fast that he is not able anymore, to compensate his technical faults in footwork with his physical strength. When Ma Long was blocking down the line in his FH or playing counter topspin he sometimes wasn't even able to make one further step in that direction. Not only because Ma Long played faster than he is used to, but also because his technique crashed at that speed. And I think it is not enough to practice with higher speed or against Hurricane rubbers. To be competitive with Ma Long he would have to change technical aspects of his game. Because with his current style there is a limit of how much speed he can handle.

      As I said before I am not saying that his technique is bad. That's not what this paragraph is about. It is great and not worse than most other players. Most players have similar problems facing the CNT. But saying that there is no big gap to Chinese technique is ridiculous in my eyes. CNT members are not only playing faster because of their rubbers. The rubbers might have an impact but it is also because they have a better technique. I had three Chinese coaches during my life. All of them had so much more knowledge about technique than every German coach I met. It was unbelievable.

      I think my careless statements make it unclear what I am saying. Ma Long will beat Aruna 40 times out of 40. But Aruna was playing at a level where it is reasonable to expect that he could have given someone like Dima or Freitas or Samsonov an interesting match. If you read my first post on the Olympics thread eirher here or on mytt about this match before it was played, the first thing I said that whenever i watch the Chinese play Aruna, the first thing I see is how technically sound they are (and I then gave kudos to JYS that this was the biggest reveal of the match vs Ma Long).

      But when I look at the match, it was not just the technical issues that were in play. The first rule of table tennis shoes that our have to be able to put the ball on the table. Aruna basically gave up on counterlooping Ma Long's ball after a few tries. Can you imagine Timo Boll or Dima giving up in counterlooping Ma Long's ball? No, because they have done it before.

      That was what I was trying to explain. At the top level, players get by mostly on special talents not technique. Anyone who thinks that Ma Long had some special technique that isn't found in other Chinese players is free to believe whatever. What makes Ma Long special is not something you can copy. Same with Aruna.

      I was speaking in the context of why it looked like Ma Long did not belong on the same table.

      There is precedent for this. JYS has been improving his results steadily vs Ma Long. So have Dima and Freitas (I am staying in the plastic ball era). You have to be able to play with that level to hang with it. What I saw was someone who just didn't know what to do with that level. In other words, I was saying that the match result was worse than the differences in player ability would predict. And if you want to put it down to stroke technique, fine. I have given my own informed opinion.

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    4. Top | #43
      Tornado2016 is offline
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      I see what you mean

    5. Top | #44
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      As a coach based in Africa, I can say lots of kids hear get bought up with bad technique, but still can do well.
      They simply just don't have enough international exposure to really get BMT (big match temperament)

      I think I understand the OP - it is not racist, but rather, is the new ball the cause of these sudden rises from weaker players? and to link with that, the sudden fall of top players?

      Speed glue era - there was a shift
      40mm ball - there was a shift
      40+ ball - I still believe there is a shift.
      Ball is getting slower and has less spin = more time for players to return the ball, with less power and spin = giving weaker player more chance on getting the ball back = a chance to beat better players.

      Aruna simply has a lot of power, he moves fast, and can produce a high quality shot in awkard situations. His technique is bad in text book terms, but then again, many players are not used to deal with his type of play. I see CCY having bad strategy (not skill or technique) and TB did better, but simply wasn't comfortable enough.

      Anyways, I don't want my post to be about strategy or Aruna, but rather I do feel that 40+ ball has a lot to do with shift of weaker players to beat top players.
      On the same token, Aruna is also getting more exposure, more support, and he is also improving.

      PS, he is not the first bad technique player, and he will not be the last. There was Mr Kreanga, with that backhand - how he got it back so powerful and consistence - I don't know how to teach that
      Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 08-10-2016 at 08:36 PM.
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    7. Top | #45
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by zeio
      "Facing this type of player, the 2nd game is crucial, but I couldn't take it down after a see-saw battle. By the time I regained my composure, his chi(morale) had already built up."

      He feels that Aruna is not difficult to play, but he didn't play well on some shots that were over his expectations, which had a negative effect on his mental game.

      "Until now, I feel that if we are to play again, I will come out victorious."

      "I was fourth last time. I aimed to reach higher this time, but this is what competition is about. There are still areas where my abilities lack."

      "This was not the result I expected, but I feel at peace."

      As to the team event, "Most of all, I will review my mental issue to better prepare for situations that are not within my expectations." ~ CCY
      By the way, for people who do not know, CCY had beaten Aruna 4-0 the first time they played. The beating was so bad that Aruna told Bobrow that he felt like CCY just didn't let him play his game.

    8. Top | #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      It is not consistent against whom? Again, the point is that when you have to recover, you either get faster or you measure your shot better. People evolve. If you can't return my forehand, why should I plan to recover? When I see it come back a few times, then I will get into the habit or find said technique.

      Given the rallies that Aruna played against most players, the idea that his goal was to finish the point early is fairly ridiculous.
      NL, I just watched the FULL game against chuang again and I feel I should rephrase my assessment on aruna's winning points. I admit that I was not accurate enough to explain thoroughly

      Out of the 60 -70 total points in the game there were 7-8 rallies ( 2 or more topspin from both player exchanges or topspin vs block, 2 topspins or more and 2 blocks or more again)

      I dont consider a rally the opening phase, serve receive and push exchanges. Most of the points won by aruna were build up by placement pushes, short long and sideswipe that cause weak returns from chuang and a devastating FH from aruna

      I also dont consider a rally 1 topspin vs 1 weak block and then one hard topspin that finishes the point, that for me is not a rally that is aruna taking the initiative caused by his tactics and attacking hard, and chuang trying to save his ass desperately.

      A rally for me is exchanges as described above AND that the players have equal or almost equal chances to win it and the initiative is not clear on which player holds it.

      U seem to be misunderstanding my statements, whats wrong with finishing of the point with a hard topspin if u can? It is his style of play, especially against chuang where if the 1st topspin was not enough the 2nd was for sure in 95 % of the points that aruna won and had the initiative

      So can facts be fairly ridiculous? Watch his match against ma long again and tell me if the plan of aruna is to try to rally with ma long, as for chuang his receives against aruna's opening pushes (opening for a rally i mean) were so bad, there was no need for a rally. 1 or 2 hard topspins and the point was over

      p.s. to be fair about terminology one could consider a rally : 1. the exchanges after the serve occurs, but then again we are not addressing here the scientific approach of rules in TT or 2. ma long smashing hard against mizutani who is 5678 meters away from the table, especially no 2. for me : is one player attacking and the other desperately defending hoping the attacker makes a mistake.

      a rally could also be considered two players lobbying against each other o_O
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    10. Top | #47
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      I don't know, I feel like adding one thing.

      A guy like Jun Mizutani has this special skill of being able to track down what seems like EVERYTHING. He gets to and returns some amazing shots that I would never think he would get to.

      Is this technique or special skill? I don't know. But when they changed to the 40+ Poly ball, from the celluloid ball, his world ranking had been dropping slowly for a while. I think he dropped to something like 12. I can't remember but he was out of the top 10.

      As soon as the Poly ball started being used in International play, his world ranking stormed right up to 5 and for a while, nobody outside of the CNT could beat the guy and nobody outside of the CNT players could get the ball past him.

      Was this because the Poly Ball somehow allowed his inferior technique to compete against players with better technique. NO WAY!!!!!

      This was because of his special skill (or is it technique) of being able to get to so many balls and give quality returns that present his opponent a challenge. Right now I am thinking of that year's Grand Tour Finals where Jun Mizutani took care of Dima Ovtcharov. It was a great match. But the whole time I just had the feeling that Dima just couldn't put the ball past Jun and couldn't win.

      Now, Aruna has a similar kind of special skill. There are REALLY times where he gets to balls I would never imagine he could reach. Right now I am thinking of one of those points in Aruna's match with ZJK in the 2014 World Cup where ZJK ran Aruna DEEP, I mean DEEEEEEEP, to the FH and did a touch shot to the center off his return. There was no way I thought Aruna would get to the ball and neither did ZJK who seemed to have gone to sleep after dropping the ball to the short center. But Aruna got there, and made a great shot too.

      The guy is fun to watch and darn exciting as a result of this special skill. Did the Poly ball allow Aruna's special skill to shine a little more than it would have with the celluloid ball? It may have. But not much. No matter which way you look at it. The guy is awesome fun to watch and has an uncanny ability to track down bombs launched from any missile launcher out there. But man Ma Long has some serious firepower!!!

      And Aruna is playing great because he is playing great. The amount of improvement he has shown since the 2014 World Cup speaks for itself. So the idea of talking about this as though for some reason the Poly ball allows players with inferior technique to win against players that are simply better misses the point of how many things Aruna is doing well; wait, not just well, but spectacularly.

      I promise you, if I played Ma Long with all my special skillzzzz, I would do almost as well as Aruna but only because of the Poly ball and me getting Ma Long to play with a blindfold on.

      Now you can all throw tomatoes at me. But let's stop throwing around accusations of racism. Please.


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    12. Top | #48
      Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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      Also remember, teams study players.
      Aruna is "new threat" by destroying 2 giants, so going forward, all teams will study him more.
      It won't be an easy journey for Aruna vs the Germans, French, Portuguese and Asians going forward

      Imo, a flawed technique will always come back and bite you.
      Or simply, a limitation of technique will always become a problem one day.
      It just needs to be exploit and there are very good minds nowadays to do that.

      CCY to me was very disappointing, his brother also didn't change his strategy much
      ML strategy didn't give Aruna a chance to play his strengths, and this is what table tennis is all about.
      Aruna is still going to be a tier 2 player, and not a top 10, 15 or 20.
      But it is always fun to watch upsets happen

    13. Top | #49
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy View Post
      NL, I just watched the FULL game against chuang again and I feel I should rephrase my assessment on aruna's winning points. I admit that I was not accurate enough to explain thoroughly

      Out of the 60 -70 total points in the game there were 7-8 rallies ( 2 or more topspin from both player exchanges or topspin vs block, 2 topspins or more and 2 blocks or more again)

      I dont consider a rally the opening phase, serve receive and push exchanges. Most of the points won by aruna were build up by placement pushes, short long and sideswipe that cause weak returns from chuang and a devastating FH from aruna

      I also dont consider a rally 1 topspin vs 1 weak block and then one hard topspin that finishes the point, that for me is not a rally that is aruna taking the initiative caused by his tactics and attacking hard, and chuang trying to save his ass desperately.

      A rally for me is exchanges as described above AND that the players have equal or almost equal chances to win it and the initiative is not clear on which player holds it.

      U seem to be misunderstanding my statements, whats wrong with finishing of the point with a hard topspin if u can? It is his style of play, especially against chuang where if the 1st topspin was not enough the 2nd was for sure in 95 % of the points that aruna won and had the initiative

      So can facts be fairly ridiculous? Watch his match against ma long again and tell me if the plan of aruna is to try to rally with ma long, as for chuang his receives against aruna's opening pushes (opening for a rally i mean) were so bad, there was no need for a rally. 1 or 2 hard topspins and the point was over

      p.s. to be fair about terminology one could consider a rally : 1. the exchanges after the serve occurs, but then again we are not addressing here the scientific approach of rules in TT or 2. ma long smashing hard against mizutani who is 5678 meters away from the table, especially no 2. for me : is one player attacking and the other desperately defending hoping the attacker makes a mistake.

      a rally could also be considered two players lobbying against each other o_O
      Your post is funny to me. It is almost like you are writing about another sport. There is no really rallying in modern table tennis. Everyone is playing for 3rd ball or 5th ball attack. The average length of points during most TT matches is 3-4 shots.

      The point is whether a player is avoiding the rally or is losing more than his fair share of rally points. My point is that Aruna is taking what he gets. He is not afraid of counterlooping exchanges and did not lose them more often than not vs CCY or Boll. Nothing you have said changes that. If you think that because someone is playing third ball table tennis that he is avoiding rallies, then I think you need to rethink that.
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    14. Top | #50
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis View Post
      Also remember, teams study players.
      Aruna is "new threat" by destroying 2 giants, so going forward, all teams will study him more.
      It won't be an easy journey for Aruna vs the Germans, French, Portuguese and Asians going forward

      Imo, a flawed technique will always come back and bite you.
      Or simply, a limitation of technique will always become a problem one day.
      It just needs to be exploit and there are very good minds nowadays to do that.

      CCY to me was very disappointing, his brother also didn't change his strategy much
      ML strategy didn't give Aruna a chance to play his strengths, and this is what table tennis is all about.
      Aruna is still going to be a tier 2 player, and not a top 10, 15 or 20.
      But it is always fun to watch upsets happen
      ML beat Zhang Jike almost as badly as he beat Aruna. CCY beat Aruna really badly earlier this year, so this is not about CCY playing someone he did not know. Even as people prepare for Aruna (and they did), the truth is that Aruna needs to play more top level players to get used to that speed and pace of play. He is already 28, but people sometimes place too much value on technique and too little value on actually playing and learning to adapt to a certain pace of game. I think Ma Long's ball quality and control was too high for Aruna but Aruna will also improve as long as he is healthy from learning to control that quality of ball.

    15. Top | #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      Your post is funny to me. It is almost like you are writing about another sport. There is no really rallying in modern table tennis. Everyone is playing for 3rd ball or 5th ball attack. The average length of points during most TT matches is 3-4 shots.

      The point is whether a player is avoiding the rally or is losing more than his fair share of rally points. My point is that Aruna is taking what he gets. He is not afraid of counterlooping exchanges and did not lose them more often than not vs CCY or Boll. Nothing you have said changes that. If you think that because someone is playing third ball table tennis that he is avoiding rallies, then I think you need to rethink that.
      dude you are constantly misinterpreting my statements. I never said he is playing 3rd ball TT BECAUSE he is avoiding rallies. seriously thats ridiculous. my posts are here read them again, i said what i said.

      I never said he LOST more rallies I said u wont see him attacking hard for the 3RD time with his FH. seriously im out its pointless to explain the obvious

      p.s. since you like to discuss with valid arguements you seem to be nitpicking your replies. didnt see any replies on my other questions . hf
      Last edited by TTFrenzy; 08-12-2016 at 11:35 AM.

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      Can you guys stop the autism and just settle on the fact that you're not Aruna nor are you his coach, so you don't exactly know what's going on and why he does what he does?

      Good analysis can be made and has been made, but what the **** is this.

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