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    1. Top | #41
      Lightzy is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by vvk1 View Post
      IMO, the advice to serve short to an antispin player (or a combination bat player with long/medium/short pips) is somewhat questionable, to put it mildly.

      Aside from the fact that the vast majority of beginners do not possess the ability to serve short and low consistently, all this achieves is giving the initiative to the opponent inviting them to do an awkward return at a sharp angle where you least expect it to be.

      If this was a reasonable general approach, someone like Greg Letts or Larry Hodges would have mentioned it ages ago.

      In my personal experience and many post-match conversations with combination bat players, they seem to vastly prefer short and/or spinny and/or slow serves from their opponents than fast long serves which immediately put them under pressure.
      Because long serves will return with spin that makes it difficult for a beginner to play a second shot. With a short serve you avoid that problem of confusion almost entirely.
      Serving a short serve is easy for beginners.

    2. Top | #42
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      Picked up that long no spin serves to the turning point from Larry Hodges, but that was nothing anti/long pips specific.

      Don't have that much Anti experience, but the spin reverse effect is similar to long pips I think, so I'd treat them similarly. In my lower league plays generally I had some success against them pips players by not giving them much spin to work with, I.e. playing some mild drives and giving them back their strange drifting no spin balls was trouble for themselves.

      Just try out different things. E.g. I found that many still had troubles against my strong side spin tomahawk serve putting it out the table. Probably weren't used to it, because players even didn't try.
      Quote Originally Posted by vvk1 View Post
      IMO, the advice to serve short to an antispin player (or a combination bat player with long/medium/short pips) is somewhat questionable, to put it mildly.

      Aside from the fact that the vast majority of beginners do not possess the ability to serve short and low consistently, all this achieves is giving the initiative to the opponent inviting them to do an awkward return at a sharp angle where you least expect it to be.

      If this was a reasonable general approach, someone like Greg Letts or Larry Hodges would have mentioned it ages ago.

      In my personal experience and many post-match conversations with combination bat players, they seem to vastly prefer short and/or spinny and/or slow serves from their opponents than fast long serves which immediately put them under pressure.
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    3. Top | #43
      Der_Echte is offline
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      I am not sold on the idea that beginners to average USA players can serve a quality short serve consistently. I do agree that a player should be able to have such a serve to setup a lot of other possibilities. yet, one can still other ways of variation with long serves. I still agree that a short serve is a valuable tool to have... for anti players, LP players, pips players, inveted players.

      I have seen 1900 USATT players not able to serve short to save their life, and many 2000 level players who cannot do it in a match in doubles.

      I can see the advantages/risks of a good short serve vs an anti player.

      Advantages:
      - if low and tight, high risk shot for opponent to flip or return aggressively
      - opponent still must read spin and make a good return, may be popped up or into net
      - good serve if opponent is killing you by attacking everything long

      Risks:

      - Still difficult to do low/tight for many players even 3 levels above average USA club level
      - Opponent now have severe angle to return the serve
      - possible unknown spin (server can kill the spin too) return can be short and awkward to do much with
      - anti opponent can return this short with a light touch pretty easily, just needs to touch it loose

      Serving long has its own set of advantages and risks

      Advantages:
      - easy for any level player to do
      - variation possible of depth, speed, and bounce anywhere on end line
      - variation of spin is easy
      - server has more time to see the ball coming back and setup (if bumped back)
      - server can take advantage of attacking tendencies (use different spin or force to attack to a known zone)
      - anti player has much less severe angles to work with on return

      Risks:
      - Server may still be rushed by attack from anti
      - timing of incoming ball may be awkward until player gets experience
      - anti can bump the ball back with unknown spin and entice server to attack low percentage
      - anti player can easily jam the middle for a server without footwork or good stance
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    4. Top | #44
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      I Do not know much about anti, But have played alot of long pimple. I Do not think it matter much if you serve long or short, a variation is proably best. Against long pimple that have No grip or almost No grip i think you should avoid serving nasty serves since the ball Will return wobbly and strange. I think backspin, Nospin or topspin serves are best.

      Against short pimple players it May be most effective to serve against the inverted rubber if they have that since the pimples is not as sensitive for spin.

    5. Top | #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      I can see the advantages/risks of a good short serve vs an anti player.... ETC (omitted for the sake of brevity)
      I agree with your summaries a hundred percent, but not so much with the difficulty of.... ok,
      What I mean is that to serve a short serve you can do, because it depends only on you.

      To figure out and respond (and quickly) to wtf is happening with the ball after a long serve against anti-spin is much more difficult. I would never advise that to a beginner.
      For a beginner there is no point trying to 'defeat the weakness of antispin'. The technique and ball-reading ain't there.
      That's why my thoughts on the issue center on 2 things:
      1) avoid the antispin
      2) understand that antispin players tend to be overly reliant on the antispin (and how wouldn't u, if you're a beginner and can return every crazy serve just by setting your racket in font of the ball).


      Long serve advice is basically advice on the theme of 'defeating the weakness', which I think is bad advice for beginners.
      Too much complication: most anti-spin players tend to use heavy speed dampening effect in order to keep the ball on the table, so a long fast serve can suddenly be returned medium-length and slowish with some backspin anywhere on the table. Or it can be hit back with speed (and spin reversal).
      Shit, at those levels even the anti player sometimes doesn't know what his serve return will be like. They block the serve back to the table and that's it.
      That's just too much. There's no point entering into a point if every second ball is a surprise

      With a short serve you can expect much less (if any) variation on the serve return, which is all I want.
      Also this can be very difficult for beginner antispin players who are overly reliant. They will move to answer any serve with the antispin and leave parts of the table open.
      That's why I'd advise beginners to serve short and weak.
      Last edited by Lightzy; 12-30-2018 at 08:34 PM.

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    7. Top | #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by yogi_bear View Post
      Why are you assuming that every ball from antispin has backspin? It is also clear that the one being discussed is a no spin ball.
      Even if the ball has no spin, the paddle will hit the ball down into the table unless there is a sufficient tangential force that keeps that from happening. The requires a lot of tangential paddle speed. It is risky and not necessary. Again, I refer to the videos I mentioned above. I don't see people brushing at 1 o'clock. When brushing a ball, a certain percentage of the tangential energy goes into spin and some into speed. It is determined by the ratio of rotational inertia to mass. The energy not going into speed does not help the ball go over the net. If pressed, I can do the math to show how much faster this stroke must be when brush looping. Also, since the paddle is closed so much the apparent cross section of the paddle is smaller. The timing is critical. There are safer ways. Also, I would like to see a video of your students doing this. They would have to be exceptionally good students to do this relatively consistently.

    8. Top | #47
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      I agree that if you close the angle of the racket and hit over the ball it Will be easier to miss the ball. And that you need a certain amount of acceleration with the arm to make the ball go over the net.

      Where Do you see people brushing the ball? What is the safer ways?

      With an open angle it Will be more safe But the ball Will have No spin. It is also possible to brush behind the ball at around 3 oclock But that is more suited for a backspin ball i think. Against a topspin or Nospin ball the ball Will have a pretty high arch. It is more safe But is less threat for the opponent since the ball Will be higher and Do not have so much power.

      I think the ball with the most quality when there is topspin or Nospin on the ball is when you brush over the ball with an forward motion.

      Maybe in wrong. I can not give the scienific explanation like you gave, which was impressive.

    9. Top | #48
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lightzy View Post
      I agree with your summaries a hundred percent, but not so much with the difficulty of.... ok,
      What I mean is that to serve a short serve you can do, because it depends only on you.

      To figure out and respond (and quickly) to wtf is happening with the ball after a long serve against anti-spin is much more difficult. I would never advise that to a beginner.
      For a beginner there is no point trying to 'defeat the weakness of antispin'. The technique and ball-reading ain't there.
      That's why my thoughts on the issue center on 2 things:
      1) avoid the antispin
      2) understand that antispin players tend to be overly reliant on the antispin (and how wouldn't u, if you're a beginner and can return every crazy serve just by setting your racket in font of the ball).


      Long serve advice is basically advice on the theme of 'defeating the weakness', which I think is bad advice for beginners.
      Too much complication: most anti-spin players tend to use heavy speed dampening effect in order to keep the ball on the table, so a long fast serve can suddenly be returned medium-length and slowish with some backspin anywhere on the table. Or it can be hit back with speed (and spin reversal).
      Shit, at those levels even the anti player sometimes doesn't know what his serve return will be like. They block the serve back to the table and that's it.
      That's just too much. There's no point entering into a point if every second ball is a surprise

      With a short serve you can expect much less (if any) variation on the serve return, which is all I want.
      Also this can be very difficult for beginner antispin players who are overly reliant. They will move to answer any serve with the antispin and leave parts of the table open.
      That's why I'd advise beginners to serve short and weak.
      I like and appreciate the detailed logic of your position. It is important for TTers to not just know WHAT to do... but HOW and WHY and the consequences for each course of action. Adults really need that.

      TT for an adult is bravery and risk management in action. Caution and skill are number 1 and 2 in combat. TT has its own dynamics every match. Adults need to be able to assess their chances and play accordingly. Knowing what how and why really help.

      You assessed the potential risks of a long serve for a beginner. The ones you listed are legitimate risks and so are the ones I listed for short serve.

      For a beginner, it comes down to discovering what is dangerous for opponent, what situations gives unknown ball uncertainty, what situations give more predictability, what situations transfer risk to opponent, what situations favor self in attacking, what is destructive to the opponent, how can one take advantage of opponent's middle and feet position (or lack of effective position), how to discover what spin gets what back...

      It is a learning process for each match and opponent, but for a beginner vs anti, more attention is needed or the risks are greater.

      it is difficult to say THIS or THAT will work as each opponent has his/her own vulnerabilities and recklessness to take advantage of... it is our job to discover those while managing risk.


      This is always a mission objective and challenge... just for beginners with little experience vs anti it is more challenging.

    10. Top | #49
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lula View Post
      I agree that if you close the angle of the racket and hit over the ball it Will be easier to miss the ball. And that you need a certain amount of acceleration with the arm to make the ball go over the net.

      Where Do you see people brushing the ball? What is the safer ways?

      With an open angle it Will be more safe But the ball Will have No spin. It is also possible to brush behind the ball at around 3 oclock But that is more suited for a backspin ball i think. Against a topspin or Nospin ball the ball Will have a pretty high arch. It is more safe But is less threat for the opponent since the ball Will be higher and Do not have so much power.

      I think the ball with the most quality when there is topspin or Nospin on the ball is when you brush over the ball with an forward motion.

      Maybe in wrong. I can not give the scienific explanation like you gave, which was impressive.
      A high level player and coach saying maybe I am wrong is refreshing and rarely seen.

      One way to play a safe ball vs a dead ball is to think loose and 50.

      Loose shoulder, arm, and wrist. 50 percent power. 50 percent brush, 50% solid impact. Strike ball a tad above 3 O'Clock and lift. Objective is a safe heavy or medium heavy ball that lands DEEP near end line.

      Under pressure, this or any shot may seem tough... but this is an easy one to train for and execute.

      This is just another safe option with potential benefits either right away or for next ball.

    11. Top | #50
      Der_Echte is offline
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      A short vid from a Korean show. One of the guys on this show has been around Korean television a LONG time.

      Dude also likes TT... a LOT.

      He uses his influence in the industry to make TT themed episodes sometimes.

      Aren't we all for that???

      Usually they are amateur TV stars vs amateur TV stars...

      In this vid, it is against a FEMALE ANTI PLAYER !!

      All the discussion after the game is about the guy having to pay attention to what rubber she used to strike the ball as she twiddled a bit. The stop action to show what she hit with on some points...


    12. Top | #51
      Der_Echte is offline
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      What is real funny is on the graphics of the vid before the vid starts...

      The graphics over the guy says it is "High Level TT Player" vs "Anti Spin Special Class Defender"

      Cracks me up as the guy is Div 4 city... no better. That isn't a high level player - that is average TT club level... unless you are talking about the average Joe off the street, which in that case it would be real high level vs that class.

      The lady defender... the title is a little more accurate to her... She would be Div 1 city female or Div 4/Div 3 mens city. For amateur females, she is 3 levels or more above average female TT club level.

    13. Top | #52
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      No the ball does not drop especially when they are using chinese rubbers in the forehand. Also, in your case i think you are referring to a fast knuckle ball wherein you are having difficulty brushing it. In case of a normal speed return for no spin or little spin, even intermediate players can do it. It is not difficult to do it if it lands about 6 inches before the edge. If it is a little bit short you beed to do it on the rise which is the one being difficult.

      Quote Originally Posted by brokenball View Post
      Even if the ball has no spin, the paddle will hit the ball down into the table unless there is a sufficient tangential force that keeps that from happening. The requires a lot of tangential paddle speed. It is risky and not necessary. Again, I refer to the videos I mentioned above. I don't see people brushing at 1 o'clock. When brushing a ball, a certain percentage of the tangential energy goes into spin and some into speed. It is determined by the ratio of rotational inertia to mass. The energy not going into speed does not help the ball go over the net. If pressed, I can do the math to show how much faster this stroke must be when brush looping. Also, since the paddle is closed so much the apparent cross section of the paddle is smaller. The timing is critical. There are safer ways. Also, I would like to see a video of your students doing this. They would have to be exceptionally good students to do this relatively consistently.

    14. Top | #53
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      Wow, the lady uses Joola Timeless. I wonder why they showed a Dr. NEUBAUER anti at first. I think some people are c9 fused and should nit generalize about anti spin rubbers because she is a chopper the ball has reversal but it does not mean that it is underspin all the time. There times that she returns a no spin ball, sometimes a loose topspin especially when she chops the underspin serve of the guy. That is the reason why it pops up.

    15. Top | #54
      Der_Echte is offline
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      I agree she isn't a pro controlling it like Joo Se Hyuk, but she is good enough to bait a guy of that level to madly attack when he THINKS he knows the spin, but it is different. He looped knuckle ball after knuckle ball out. Sometimes it was because he didn't pay attention to what rubber she used, sometimes it was because she manipulated the spin on the ball (killed the spin).

      She played pretty much as classic defender... took very few or no attacks or risk... settled on transferring risk to opponent... and opponent was too attack happy to be cautious... and when he was cautious she pushed heavy and he pushed ball into net...

      Very few female Korean players play a classic or modern defender style.

      Just about 80-90% of women over 40 or 50 all play a fast solid OFF+ blade with OX LP on BH... they play a punching game with their LP, or push with LP to get a high ball to pulverized with their inverted FH.

    16. Top | #55
      Der_Echte is offline
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      Not Anti, but the Captain prolly couldn't lift his right arm higher than his chest for a week after this match... JSH never give up.

      Plenty of variation on the returns...


    17. Top | #56
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by pgpg View Post
      I guess 'Lightzy' got a question from one of his beginner friends (as mentioned in the post), tried to find an answer here and did not like the gist of advice.

      Anti players did not go away in the last 6 years, so no harm in reviving old thread - keeps info in one place. Why there is such a general dislike of 'necromancing'? I thought this particular one was quite tastefully done .
      Honestly, I am okay with people waking up old threads. But I am frequently entertained when someone wakes an old thread knowing that they are doing it and people after respond as though the posts from 7 years ago were just written. Then, of course, there are the times when, the person waking the thread is doing it without realizing how old it is. So, in waking an old thread, sometimes, making it clear how old the thread is--ie "I know this thread was from 2011, but I think this is a good topic to reopen"--might make sense to warn the people who follow after.

      Der_Echte actually did sort of let people know with this post:

      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      Azlan… oh Azlan...
      But I wonder how many people understood what he was saying.

      In this case, to be honest, it looks to me like Lightzy woke the thread to show he can give better information for the type of player who would ask about player ways to play vs vs pips and anti than the people who had responded way back when. Maybe he is he has a good point. But I am not sure I think that is a great reason to wake a thread even if this is a good subject.

      Ultimately, good info for handling a tricky player may be most useful when you are present and get to see what the player is having trouble with.

      I am always impressed how good coaches can give coaching info during a match that helps the player improve the results against an opponent.

      One time I was playing this guy who is a few levels lower than me. At the time he trained with the same coach I did. After the first game of the match, the coach asked me if I minded if he helped the other guy. I thought to myself "I don't care what you say to him, he can't beat me." And I told the coach it was fine.

      The guy beat me. He never beat me before. He never beat me again.

      But with the insight of a skilled coach seeing things that would help him, he won the match. Sometimes this kind of info is sort of like that.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-31-2018 at 11:56 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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