How to change to new equipment

joskelly · Aug 29, 2016

Advice needed on how to transition to a new bat

My son has just turned 11. He has been using a Carbonado 145 with Evolution rubbers (MXS/FXP). He has got on well with it (won the u11 nationals using it) but has hankered after the control his old Infinity had. He just found the Infinity far too slow. Due to sponsorship, he is moving to Stiga Genesis rubbers and a new Stiga blade - the 145 is pretty bashed about now anyway. After seeing Yogi's review on the Eternity we've had the Genesis rubbers put on one of those. By all accounts it's very much like a fast Infinity and most coaching advice seems to suggest younger players develop better using all wood 5 ply blades. When I got him the 145 he started playing with it for the first time at a tournament and it wasn't until he had some unexpected losses that I realised it might have been an idea to transition in a more controlled way and that's the reason for this post. What is the best way to change equipment for minimal impact? He's been playing at the Eurominis this weekend with the 145 and now wants to switch over but has tournaments on the next few weekends. Should he practice during the week with the Eternity and switch back to the 145 for the tournaments? Surely even that would be disruptive? Or should he practice as much as possible during the week with the Eternity and just go for it at the tournaments and accept a possible unexpected loss or two? Or is there some other tried and tested way of adapting to new equipment?

TTHopeful · Aug 29, 2016

Firstly, well done for winning the Nationals he must be doing something right, fantastic achievements!

But yes carbon blades for young ones can be to much to handle. I think change to the Eternity as soon as possible which I think is slower than the Carbonado's as they are all wood blades then stick to it. Try and get as much practice in as possible in the week. He will adapt to it quickly enough.

You could have your Carbonado at he ready if it doesn't work out.

Tryzerlol · Aug 29, 2016

Really depends on how quickly he can, or atleast thinks he can adapt. If you're practising Monday til Friday and the tournaments are on the weekends, I'd say giving him the Eternity with new rubbers on a monday and letting him practise should be enough time to get used to it.

If the tournaments are really important however, I would stick to the setup that currently works best for him and ensures the most confidence. In case a loss or two doesn't really matter, just switch

If he's a very competitive guy and doesn't take losses well, skipping an event or two might be a reasonable option. This is something you should definitely discuss with him beforehand though.

joskelly · Aug 30, 2016

Thanks TTHopeful, he trained with the new set up yesterday. Interestingly it's in the short game he found it trickiest to start with.

joskelly · Aug 30, 2016

Thanks Tryzerlol, the challenge is there is always a tournament coming up. As it's the last week of the school holiday he's going to use that time to practice with it loads and them compete with it at the weekend but hopefully by then he'll be much more used to it.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2016

If he trains with the new racket all week and by Friday he still doesn't feel comfortable with the new setup, then after a morning training session, give him a three hour break. And after the break have him do a training session with the 145.

This will give him his feel for the old blade back. Don't have him switch in the middle of the session. After a break when he starts with the different (previous) racket, he will adjust to it much faster than if the switch is done in the middle of training.

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UpSideDownCarl · Aug 30, 2016

One thing I do think though: for a kid who has recently turned 11, I think, perhaps the focus may be a bit off somewhere.

You might consult with his coach on what would be the best equipment for his development, get exactly what would be best for him, and stick with that for a few years. Is Dan one of his coaches?

There is something I have noticed with Chinese young prodigies and Japanese young prodigies that I feel is interesting.

Often there are these Japanese young players who pop out early as someone who is going to storm the world tour and prospects look like they will be able to challenge the CNT when they develop. But they are put on the world circuit too early and before their skills are fully developed, they are focused on success and winning. And then at around 18-20 they plateau and their level flatlines and, who knows, perhaps they get player burnout from the fact that they are competing in this way for years already by the time they are 18.

Right now I am thinking of Koki Niwa and how promising he looked at a very young age. I, unfortunately, have a feeling something similar will happen to Harimoto. There are others I can think of too.

Anyway, in China, a lot of the time, you don't really hear much about he young prospects, and, in that age between 10-15, rather than putting the kids through the stress of competitions, those kids are continuing their training, developing their technique, developing more spin, more of their own power. And then when they pop onto the international scene it is sort of like they came out of nowhere and are fully formed as a dominant force. And guys like Ma Long and Fan Zhendong, who get pulled into the adult division at 16 are really rare. But when they were pulled up, their technique and level of spin was phenomenal.

Anyway, I, personally, would give him a slower racket that made him have to work a little harder, that helped him spin the ball better, because that will help him develop the underlying power that he will need while developing more precise technique in order to get the pace he needs from a slower blade.

Whereas, the faster blade, which will give you better results NOW, will also allow him to get away with not using quite as much power from his hips, etc.

So, although the faster racket with the harder surface will give him more pace on his ball now and may end up giving him a few extra wins at this age, playing with something more like the Infinity now, may cause him to develop more strength, better timing and technique, so that 3 years down the road, when he steps up to a blade like a Carbonato, he has the technique, the spin and the power behind his shots and can put the ball past anyone when he Ts off.

And I seem to remember there was a similar conversation a while ago when you were looking to have him step up to a faster blade because you saw that other kids his age were using things like the Viscaria and the TB Spirit or ALC.

In the end, it sounds like your son is pretty talented and you guys are doing something right. So this is really just food for thought. Especially if he now has Stiga sponsorship and you could have him try a bunch of setups to see what really clicks for him.

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Cornel · Aug 31, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
One thing I do think though: for a kid who has recently turned 11, I think, perhaps the focus may be a bit off somewhere.

You might consult with his coach on what would be the best equipment for his development, get exactly what would be best for him, and stick with that for a few years. Is Dan one of his coaches?

There is something I have noticed with Chinese young prodigies and Japanese young prodigies that I feel is interesting.

Often there are these Japanese young players who pop out early as someone who is going to storm the world tour and prospects look like they will be able to challenge the CNT when they develop. But they are put on the world circuit too early and before their skills are fully developed, they are focused on success and winning. And then at around 18-20 they plateau and their level flatlines and, who knows, perhaps they get player burnout from the fact that they are competing in this way for years already by the time they are 18.

Right now I am thinking of Koki Niwa and how promising he looked at a very young age. I, unfortunately, have a feeling something similar will happen to Harimoto. There are others I can think of too.

Anyway, in China, a lot of the time, you don't really hear much about he young prospects, and, in that age between 10-15, rather than putting the kids through the stress of competitions, those kids are continuing their training, developing their technique, developing more spin, more of their own power. And then when they pop onto the international scene it is sort of like they came out of nowhere and are fully formed as a dominant force. And guys like Ma Long and Fan Zhendong, who get pulled into the adult division at 16 are really rare. But when they were pulled up, their technique and level of spin was phenomenal.

Anyway, I, personally, would give him a slower racket that made him have to work a little harder, that helped him spin the ball better, because that will help him develop the underlying power that he will need while developing more precise technique in order to get the pace he needs from a slower blade.

Whereas, the faster blade, which will give you better results NOW, will also allow him to get away with not using quite as much power from his hips, etc.

So, although the faster racket with the harder surface will give him more pace on his ball now and may end up giving him a few extra wins at this age, playing with something more like the Infinity now, may cause him to develop more strength, better timing and technique, so that 3 years down the road, when he steps up to a blade like a Carbonato, he has the technique, the spin and the power behind his shots and can put the ball past anyone when he Ts off.

And I seem to remember there was a similar conversation a while ago when you were looking to have him step up to a faster blade because you saw that other kids his age were using things like the Viscaria and the TB Spirit or ALC.

In the end, it sounds like your son is pretty talented and you guys are doing something right. So this is really just food for thought. Especially if he now has Stiga sponsorship and you could have him try a bunch of setups to see what really clicks for him.

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joskelly · Aug 31, 2016

It's because I made a hash of it last time that I'm being a lot more cautious this time. Last time I listened to your advice but I always seem to learn better the hard way!

TBH we knew all along the 145 wasn't the perfect blade but it was better for him than the Infinity. When the Eternity reviews started coming out it sounded like this was what we'd been waiting for - a fast Infinity - and it coincided with Stiga upping his sponsorship that meant he was required to switch to Stiga rubbers anyway. Learning from my previous mistakes we kept him using the 145/Evolution set up until he returned from the European championships but with tournaments coming up on most weekends for a while there isn't a clear window where he can just train with the new setup at leisure until fully familiar with it. Bertie is fortunate to have supercoach Dan as one of his trainers and attends Dan's advanced junior sessions on Saturdays and has seen his game improve no end as a result. I did discuss my quandary with Dan and he suggested it would also be a wise idea to seek the advice of the forum. I told Dan I was a bit worried USDCarl would take me to task for not heeding him last time but I'm glad you're being magnanimous Carl!

I do like your advice this time though. He's training every day with the Eternity now and seems to be adapting to it very well. In fact he absolutely loves it. He feels he's still got a way to go, especially with the short game and service but he's very happy with his progress. Rather fortunately there are two tournaments this weekend. Saturday is a team tournament and Sunday an individual. Adapting your advice Carl I think we'll get him to play with the Eternity on Saturday but if he struggles get him to practice afterward with the 145 and use that on the Sunday.

BTW, I don't disagree with your comments regarding the Chinese approach. We're not however thinking that far ahead. He's a kid who loves TT at the moment and is doing OK but he loves other sports too, especially cricket and there's no guarantee he won't switch his focus at some point. What I want to do is help him get as much as he can out of it now and have a lot of fun too.

UpSideDownCarl said:
One thing I do think though: for a kid who has recently turned 11, I think, perhaps the focus may be a bit off somewhere.

You might consult with his coach on what would be the best equipment for his development, get exactly what would be best for him, and stick with that for a few years. Is Dan one of his coaches?

There is something I have noticed with Chinese young prodigies and Japanese young prodigies that I feel is interesting.

Often there are these Japanese young players who pop out early as someone who is going to storm the world tour and prospects look like they will be able to challenge the CNT when they develop. But they are put on the world circuit too early and before their skills are fully developed, they are focused on success and winning. And then at around 18-20 they plateau and their level flatlines and, who knows, perhaps they get player burnout from the fact that they are competing in this way for years already by the time they are 18.

Right now I am thinking of Koki Niwa and how promising he looked at a very young age. I, unfortunately, have a feeling something similar will happen to Harimoto. There are others I can think of too.

Anyway, in China, a lot of the time, you don't really hear much about he young prospects, and, in that age between 10-15, rather than putting the kids through the stress of competitions, those kids are continuing their training, developing their technique, developing more spin, more of their own power. And then when they pop onto the international scene it is sort of like they came out of nowhere and are fully formed as a dominant force. And guys like Ma Long and Fan Zhendong, who get pulled into the adult division at 16 are really rare. But when they were pulled up, their technique and level of spin was phenomenal.

Anyway, I, personally, would give him a slower racket that made him have to work a little harder, that helped him spin the ball better, because that will help him develop the underlying power that he will need while developing more precise technique in order to get the pace he needs from a slower blade.

Whereas, the faster blade, which will give you better results NOW, will also allow him to get away with not using quite as much power from his hips, etc.

So, although the faster racket with the harder surface will give him more pace on his ball now and may end up giving him a few extra wins at this age, playing with something more like the Infinity now, may cause him to develop more strength, better timing and technique, so that 3 years down the road, when he steps up to a blade like a Carbonato, he has the technique, the spin and the power behind his shots and can put the ball past anyone when he Ts off.

And I seem to remember there was a similar conversation a while ago when you were looking to have him step up to a faster blade because you saw that other kids his age were using things like the Viscaria and the TB Spirit or ALC.

In the end, it sounds like your son is pretty talented and you guys are doing something right. So this is really just food for thought. Especially if he now has Stiga sponsorship and you could have him try a bunch of setups to see what really clicks for him.

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Giangt · Aug 31, 2016

Hi there.
I do like Carls comment about picking a blade that is slower than the 145 for your son.
As I see it there a lot of factors going into this puzzle. First he change the blade from Infinity to Carbonado 145 and again he change the rubbers.
Then you realize that his setup might be wrong because he loses some games.
It takes approximately 6 months to fully adapt to new equipment depending on the frequency of training your son has. I do not believe that switching setup back and forth will benefit him to adapt to his setup with 145 and Genissis rubbers. Usually it would be easier to adapt if he change either the rubbers or the blade, but changing the whole setup with take more time to adapt to.
Especially in match situations you son needs to be confident with his equipment before his level of tension can be in an area where he can control his gameplay.
I think in this situation the keyword is patience and let him adapt to his new setup accepting that he might lose some matches that he should have won. Instead the development should be visible in stability in training exercises shown by the percentage of errors should be lower. When that transitions happens you son would be more confident in real match situation.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

Giangt said:
.....As I see it there a lot of factors going into this puzzle.....

great comment through and through.

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UpSideDownCarl · Aug 31, 2016

joskelly said:
I told Dan I was a bit worried USDCarl would take me to task for not heeding him last time but I'm glad you're being magnanimous Carl!

Hahahahaha. This made me laugh. It sounds like you are juggling priorities well.

I am not so attached to the information I throw out into virtual reality.

I am glad not to teach table tennis. That will never be my MO. But I do teach something. And I teach adults. So, I understand that it is good to present information so people can make better informed choices. But I don't make the choices for people. And I am not attached to my information.

It sounds to me like you may have found a decent balance.

Of course, I am disappointed that you and Dan are not going to be forcing Bertie to be chained to the idea of being the next Olympic TT Gold Medalist from UK.

There is this thing in Harry Potter called an Unbreakable Vow. I think a good plan would be to get Bertie to make one of those wedding him to the sport.

Okay, sometimes people miss my jokes. So, sorry if anyone missed that I'm goofing around.

And I do think you are doing a good job of trying to weigh all your options.

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TurboZ · Sep 1, 2016

Basically to smooth transition to something new, either blade or rubber but not both at once is the way to go. Giangt had nailed it.

Was about to ask how your kid feels about the new Eternity and glad to hear he loves it. I think it is overweight combined with Genesis for a 11 yo kid unless you have found a light one. Is it Genesis both sides? How much does it weight?

Anyway I wish what happened to me is an isolated incident as told by Stiga and won't happen to you or anyone else.

joskelly · Sep 1, 2016

His only complaint so far was he thought it felt a bit too light at the start. The 145/Evo set up is 195g whereas the Eternity/Genesis combo is 185g. It could partly be because we were asked to try 2.0mm rubbers first whereas the Evolution rubbers are max. He's always had a preference for weightier set ups so noticed the difference immediately.

That's a nasty bulge you've got there. Did you boost?

TurboZ said:
Basically to smooth transition to something new, either blade or rubber but not both at once is the way to go. Giangt had nailed it.

Was about to ask how your kid feels about the new Eternity and glad to hear he loves it. I think it is overweight combined with Genesis for a 11 yo kid unless you have found a light one. Is it Genesis both sides? How much does it weight?

Anyway I wish what happened to me is an isolated incident as told by Stiga and won't happen to you or anyone else.
View attachment 10769

laistrogian · Sep 1, 2016

joskelly said:
His only complaint so far was he thought it felt a bit too light at the start. The 145/Evo set up is 195g whereas the Eternity/Genesis combo is 185g. It could partly be because we were asked to try 2.0mm rubbers first whereas the Evolution rubbers are max. He's always had a preference for weightier set ups so noticed the difference immediately.

That's a nasty bulge you've got there. Did you boost?

I dont know how it works with stiga, but you might be able to ask heavy blade or the heavy batches of the genesis

TurboZ · Sep 1, 2016

joskelly said:
His only complaint so far was he thought it felt a bit too light at the start. The 145/Evo set up is 195g whereas the Eternity/Genesis combo is 185g. It could partly be because we were asked to try 2.0mm rubbers first whereas the Evolution rubbers are max. He's always had a preference for weightier set ups so noticed the difference immediately.

That's a nasty bulge you've got there. Did you boost?

I am kind of surprised to learn a 11 yo prefer heavy blade and considered a 185g setup light, but I have not met any 11 yo who play TT seriously so what do I know? Anyway mine with max is 192g which is pretty hefty for an all wood Cpen with RPB.

I have it glued by seller and never touch it with booster or anything. I only play with it two times and 2 hours max. The performance is disappointing but that could be due to the rubber is already bad since day one so my impression does not count.

The bulge was not as bad as photo shown when it was still glued on blade. I can see and feel something was wrong there but only think of it as a bad glue job. I believe it got worst and separated more when I pull it off the blade.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 1, 2016

That bubble looks like the pips of the topsheet separating from the sponge. Bad glue job by Stiga putting sponge and rubber together.

The kid has good taste if he likes the extra weight. More inertia behind the ball and blades with a little extra weight generally have better feeling.

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TurboZ · Sep 1, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
That bubble looks like the pips of the topsheet separating from the sponge. Bad glue job by Stiga putting sponge and rubber together.

The kid has good taste if he likes the extra weight. More inertia behind the ball and blades with a little extra weight generally have better feeling.

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Yes Carl top sheet and sponge is separated there. Only thought/wish it was a bad glue job when still glued on blade. After removed it is clear the rubber is tossed. The photo was taken after rubber was removed but placed it back for the shot.

It is common to hear adult complain about their blades are too heavy. I must have underestimated how much a 11 yo can do these days.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 2, 2016

TurboZ said:
Yes Carl top sheet and sponge is separated there. Only thought/wish it was a bad glue job when still glued on blade. After removed it is clear the rubber is tossed. The photo was taken after rubber was removed but placed it back for the shot.

It is common to hear adult complain about their blades are too heavy. I must have underestimated how much a 11 yo can do these days.

That is worth sending to a photo to Stiga and explaining it as a manufacturer's defect that the topsheet and sponge separated. Hopefully you kept the rubber in case they want to examine it. They should give you a new one. That is not from anything you did.

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TurboZ · Sep 2, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
That is worth sending to a photo to Stiga and explaining it as a manufacturer's defect that the topsheet and sponge separated. Hopefully you kept the rubber in case they want to examine it. They should give you a new one. That is not from anything you did.

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I contact seller with photos at once and Stiga told them they have not experience anything like this before and promised to send me a replacement with no cost or questions asked. Good job for customer services of both seller and Stiga. Hope this is not a wide spread problem because it is made in China.

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