Viscaria VERSUS Butterfly Innerforce ALC

Sakumi · Sep 1, 2016

Viscaria VERSUS Butterfly Innerforce Layer ALC

I came here to find out what the advantages and disadvantages were of the Innerforce blade because I could not find any good reviews. How does it compare to the viscaria in these aspects: power, dwell time, control and how they play close and mid range from the table?

Thanks

laistrogian · Sep 1, 2016

Innerforce blades generally will have more vibration, has lots of dwell time, not that fast on passive strokes but the speed jumps on active strokes.

I like innerforce series more than normal carbon blade. The carbon only engages when you start putting power and even then the blade feels pretty woody

SilentRain · Sep 1, 2016

In general, viscaria has more speed, spin and power but the IF has more dwell, feel and control. Furthermore the IF uses Limba outerwood which is flexible and great for looping while Vis uses Koto which allows for more crips, consistent and direct shoots. Overall both are great blades and you should choose the one base on what you need. I already can generate great power and speed from my arm and use of rubbers so Ill always op for feeling and control first over anything else. This is especially true if Im using ALC blades which have a very numb and dead feel. My TB ALC plays like a brick eventhou I win alot of points with it hence my transition away from it as it wasnt fun. I personally recommend getting the IF especially if this is your first carbon blade but the Vis is also a great choice (my second pick for ALC really)

MDP · Sep 1, 2016

SilentRain said:
In general, viscaria has more speed, spin and power but the IF has more dwell, feel and control. Furthermore the IF uses Limba outerwood which is flexible and great for looping while Vis uses Koto which allows for more crips, consistent and direct shoots. Overall both are great blades and you should choose the one base on what you need. I already can generate great power and speed from my arm and use of rubbers so Ill always op for feeling and control first over anything else. This is especially true if Im using ALC blades which have a very numb and dead feel. My TB ALC plays like a brick eventhou I win alot of points with it hence my transition away from it as it wasnt fun. I personally recommend getting the IF especially if this is your first carbon blade but the Vis is also a great choice (my second pick for ALC really)

How is it that Viscaria 'has' more spin but IF has more dwell time and limba?

Isaac Lee · Sep 1, 2016

It is really depending on preferences of the player.
There are a lot of people saying this is better and better, but everyone has different opinion.

The biggest difference of these two blades, is placement of Aramid-Carbon.
Viscaria is placed on right after surface wood while, ALC is placed between 2nd & center wood.

As a developer or tester of blades, these two aspects are quite important.
Current trend is however having AC (Aramid-Carbon) after surface layer of wood.

Just want to let you know.

Sakumi · Sep 1, 2016

Isaac Lee said:
It is really depending on preferences of the player.
There are a lot of people saying this is better and better, but everyone has different opinion.

The biggest difference of these two blades, is placement of Aramid-Carbon.
Viscaria is placed on right after surface wood while, ALC is placed between 2nd & center wood.

As a developer or tester of blades, these two aspects are quite important.
Current trend is however having AC (Aramid-Carbon) after surface layer of wood.

Just want to let you know.

Does the Aramid-Carbon after the layer of wood result in the more power and a more direct shot?

Is the Viscaria more similar to the Zhang Jike blades (ZLC and ALC) in the wood and carbon layering?

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 1, 2016

Isaac Lee said:
The biggest difference of these two blades, is placement of Aramid-Carbon.

Just for the record, especially since someone else just thought the material you mentioned was correct....

Sakumi said:
Does the Aramid-Carbon....

Butterfly DOES NOT use Aramid. They use ARYLATE. These are similar but not the same.

Any AL or ALC blade from Butterfly is using Arylate.

Companies like Xiom use Aramid.

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UpSideDownCarl · Sep 1, 2016

Isaac Lee said:
The biggest difference of these two blades, is placement of Aramid-Carbon.
Viscaria is placed on right after surface wood while, ALC is placed between 2nd & center wood.

As a developer or tester of blades, these two aspects are quite important.
Current trend is however having AC (Aramid-Carbon) after surface layer of wood.

While it is true that where the carbon is in the ply construction is one of the big differences, the top ply wood is just as important. The top ply of a Viscaria is Koto which is on the hard side and it has already been said that this gives a crisp and more direct feel. While the top ply of the Innerforce is Limba which is much softer gives more dwell time spin and control but is not as fast.

Another thing that is misleading in the above statement is the simple note that "the current trend" is to have the carbon under the top ply.

This is not simply "the current trend." Probably the word you were looking for is TRADITIONAL. Directly below the top ply is the traditional placement for the composite ply.

Most composite blades since they started making blades with composite materials, had the composite ply just below the top ply. So it has nothing to do with some current trend.

In fact, Butterfly was trying to be innovative by making the composite ply deeper in the blade. Hence the name Innerforce. So, putting the composite ply deeper could actually be called a "current trend" but it still would not help us understand the benefits of each placement of the composite ply.

When the composite ply is closer to the surface, the composite ply affects touch, feel, impact and shot quality on hard and soft contact. This is better for big shots and makes the touch of short game harder which simply means the player has to have better touch and feel to use a TRADITIONAL composite blade and maintain control in the short game. The composite material closer to the surface also makes it harder to feel the ball as it cuts down vibration more.

When the composite material is deeper, the composite material does not come into play and help the player on lighter touch shots. So the blade plays more like an all wood blade closer to the table and in fact feels more like an all wood blade. There is much more feeling. But the tradeoff is that there is much less pace and power on closer to the table play. But, once you have dropped back to mid-distance and are taking bigger swings with more impact, the composite ply kicks in and the blade plays faster, than close to the table. Not as fast as a traditional composite blade. But faster than it played closer to the table.

So a traditional composite blade is for someone who wants the extra power of the composite and is okay sacrificing the feel, touch and control of an all wood blade for that extra power. And a blade like the Innerforce with the composite ply deeper is for a player who wants a blade that feels and performs like an Off- all wood blade close to the table but has some of the extra kick and juice of a composite blade on the bigger shots, bigger impacts and from further back.

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UpSideDownCarl · Sep 1, 2016

Sakumi said:
Is the Viscaria more similar to the Zhang Jike blades (ZLC and ALC) in the wood and carbon layering?

There is no difference in construction between the Viscaria and the ZJK ALC. They are the exact same plies and thickness with a different handle.

The only difference between the ZJK ALC and the ZJK ZLC is that ALC = Arylate Carbon weave and ZLC = Zylon Carbon weave. All the other plies are the same. This difference is the same from Viscaria to ZJK ZLC except you also add that the handle is different.

In fact these blades are pretty much identical except for the handle:

TB Spirit, TB ALC, Viscaria and ZJK ALC. Butterfly has a few more blades that are the same with a different handle and a different pros name. That is how they market and sell. So I think the Kenta Matsudaira may be one of those newer blades that is a rebranding of the Viscaria/TB Spirit, etc.

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UpSideDownCarl · Sep 1, 2016

laistrogian said:
Innerforce blades generally will have more vibration, has lots of dwell time, not that fast on passive strokes but the speed jumps on active strokes.

I like innerforce series more than normal carbon blade. The carbon only engages when you start putting power and even then the blade feels pretty woody

But this post was all that was needed for the original post. This gives all the necessary and important information in a simple straightforward way that is easy to understand.

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MDP · Sep 1, 2016

Isaac Lee said:
As a developer or tester of blades, these two aspects are quite important.

Are you a developer on professional basis? If so, for what company?
I'm interested in knowing.

SilentRain · Sep 1, 2016

MDP said:
How is it that Viscaria 'has' more spin but IF has more dwell time and limba?

This was my personal finding after testing the two but my opinion could be skewered and hence wrong. My best guess for this outcome would be that the ALC layer in the Vis is closer to the outer plies which means it engages more. As others have stated, the IF plays closer to an all wood close to the table but the Vis is very consistent irregardless of the distance. Therefore the old saying of "more dwell= more spin" cannot be taken without a grain of salt. Furthermore dwell time for me means "easier to generate spin", it does not necessarily automatically translate to more spin. If you ask me to generate spin between a TB ALC and a Stiga Allround Classic, the TB will always out spin the Allround eventhou it has more dwell and control because the dwell on the TB is long enough for me to impart maximum spin with my stroke. The Allround's longer dwell thus does not help me much and thus other factors such as the ALC layer will play a bigger role in imparting spin.

SilentRain · Sep 1, 2016

To reinforce to Carl's comment, the latest trend in terms of composite blade designs is to put the carbon layer closer to the core . Just look at some of the latest carbon blades. Hurricane long 5, Tiago Apolonia ZLC, Garaydia series. Not to mention that there are a fair amount of pro players who use composite blades and are transitioning to using blades of similar design. Ma long now uses Hl5 instead of TB ALC, Jun Mizutani is now using the standard JM ZLC and not the SZLC version, Kasumi opt for the innferforce layer ALC instead of traditional composite blade and the IF ZLC seems to be a favourite among the pro womens player.

MaLongSenpai · Sep 1, 2016

Hey if you are considering a blade such as the Innerforce compared to the Viscaria (I won't go into the technical aspects as that has been done already) however, Butterfly recently "re-released" the Innerforce in a way and at the same time released the "Tiago Apolonia ZLC".
If price is not a problem, as I know thew new IF is slight cheaper than the TA then I would suggest looking at the TA ZLC. I personally don't own one but from what I am able to see it's an incredibly popular blade already and in terms of performance and craftsmanship it's apparently top of the tree.

Sakumi · Sep 1, 2016

MaLongSenpai said:
Hey if you are considering a blade such as the Innerforce compared to the Viscaria (I won't go into the technical aspects as that has been done already) however, Butterfly recently "re-released" the Innerforce in a way and at the same time released the "Tiago Apolonia ZLC".
If price is not a problem, as I know thew new IF is slight cheaper than the TA then I would suggest looking at the TA ZLC. I personally don't own one but from what I am able to see it's an incredibly popular blade already and in terms of performance and craftsmanship it's apparently top of the tree.

Yeh, I heard about this blade. It looks really good and I would probably buy it if money wasn't a problem.

Sakumi · Sep 1, 2016

Also, how do the sweet spots compare between the IF ALC and Viscaria?

MaLongSenpai · Sep 1, 2016

Currently the Innerforce is selling for £119.99 on Teessport and the Tiago Apolonia is retailing for £169.99. In terms of the sweet spots on the blade, as far as I am aware the Innerforce should have a slightly larger sweetspot than the Viscaria due to the design of the blade itself. Another thing to note which for whatever reason seems to go totally under the radar, the Viscaria has been around for a VERY long time with no significant changes to the actual design of the blade, meaning that it is somewhat of an "Old School" blade, especially as it was introduced long before the plastic ball came into play.

Food for thought...

Sakumi · Sep 1, 2016

MaLongSenpai said:
Currently the Innerforce is selling for £119.99 on Teessport and the Tiago Apolonia is retailing for £169.99. In terms of the sweet spots on the blade, as far as I am aware the Innerforce should have a slightly larger sweetspot than the Viscaria due to the design of the blade itself. Another thing to note which for whatever reason seems to go totally under the radar, the Viscaria has been around for a VERY long time with no significant changes to the actual design of the blade, meaning that it is somewhat of an "Old School" blade, especially as it was introduced long before the plastic ball came into play.

Food for thought...

Some blades are extremely expensive like the Tiago Apolonia and JM ZLC. Tbh I don't know why they are that expensive.

Sakumi · Sep 1, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
While it is true that where the carbon is in the ply construction is one of the big differences, the top ply wood is just as important. The top ply of a Viscaria is Koto which is on the hard side and it has already been said that this gives a crisp and more direct feel. While the top ply of the Innerforce is Limba which is much softer gives more dwell time spin and control but is not as fast.

Another thing that is misleading in the above statement is the simple note that "the current trend" is to have the carbon under the top ply.

This is not simply "the current trend." Probably the word you were looking for is TRADITIONAL. Directly below the top ply is the traditional placement for the composite ply.

Most composite blades since they started making blades with composite materials, had the composite ply just below the top ply. So it has nothing to do with some current trend.

In fact, Butterfly was trying to be innovative by making the composite ply deeper in the blade. Hence the name Innerforce. So, putting the composite ply deeper could actually be called a "current trend" but it still would not help us understand the benefits of each placement of the composite ply.

When the composite ply is closer to the surface, the composite ply affects touch, feel, impact and shot quality on hard and soft contact. This is better for big shots and makes the touch of short game harder which simply means the player has to have better touch and feel to use a TRADITIONAL composite blade and maintain control in the short game. The composite material closer to the surface also makes it harder to feel the ball as it cuts down vibration more.

When the composite material is deeper, the composite material does not come into play and help the player on lighter touch shots. So the blade plays more like an all wood blade closer to the table and in fact feels more like an all wood blade. There is much more feeling. But the tradeoff is that there is much less pace and power on closer to the table play. But, once you have dropped back to mid-distance and are taking bigger swings with more impact, the composite ply kicks in and the blade plays faster, than close to the table. Not as fast as a traditional composite blade. But faster than it played closer to the table.

So a traditional composite blade is for someone who wants the extra power of the composite and is okay sacrificing the feel, touch and control of an all wood blade for that extra power. And a blade like the Innerforce with the composite ply deeper is for a player who wants a blade that feels and performs like an Off- all wood blade close to the table but has some of the extra kick and juice of a composite blade on the bigger shots, bigger impacts and from further back.

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So, when the carbon layer is further out slightly less effort is required to create power and vica versa when the carbon is further in?

Is the power that the viscaria can create a lot more noticeable than the IF or just a bit?

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 1, 2016

Sakumi said:
So, when the carbon layer is further out slightly less effort is required to create power and vica versa when the carbon is further in?

Is the power that the viscaria can create a lot more noticeable than the IF or just a bit?

In short game, a lot. Much more power on half strokes like a flip.

On full strokes only a little. Like from mid-distance the power differential is much closer, practically the same.

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Viscaria VERSUS Butterfly Innerforce ALC

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