How to play against flat hitters.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 7, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Hah, Carl. I discovered the shot months ago on my backhand side when I was screwing around, but wasn't too sure if it was an actual thing because the quality was relatively low. Then maybe due to a cognitive bias, I started hearing of "backspin flicks". Now I saw it again and was just curious how it's "supposed to be performed".

I was talking about grabbing it before coming up, with the curving to right from hitter sidespin. What the HELL does the opposite sidespin from the backhand look like? Must have been one hell of a surprise to have to return that.

This makes me laugh. You still have not changed. And I am still waiting for video footage of your FH while playing against a real human being.

And if this is the case, when Samumi was talking about BH flicks, which was obvious if you read, and I was talking to HIM, why did you think I was talking about an FH flip???????

Okay. Please don't answer. I don't want to hear the bizarre rationalizations. Hahaha. Okay, I changed my mind. I won't mind hearing them. I've got my popcorn ready. [emoji2]

But I want to see video footage of your FH loop and your BH backspin flip now. Better watch out. NextLevel may just jump onto this thread and raise a ruckus!!!

Hahahahaha.

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UpSideDownCarl · Sep 7, 2016

Sakumi said:
I don't flick on my FH because I cannot do it. I always push.

I knew that which is why that drill I described is so valuable. When you know the ball is coming back after the BH flip, you will develop the footwork to get ready for the 4th ball after your flip.

But a drill for working on the FH flip is very similar:

1) training partner serves short anywhere from middle to deep FH
2) you attempt to FH flip cross court
3) training partner attacks your flip
4) open play

That will help you develop the FH flip.

As with all drills, performing both sides of the drill helps your skills improve.

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Archosaurus · Sep 7, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
This makes me laugh. You still have not changed. And I am still waiting for video footage of your FH while playing against a real human being.

And if this is the case, when Samumi was talking about BH flicks, which was obvious if you read, and I was talking to HIM, why did you think I was talking about an FH flip???????

Okay. Please don't answer. I don't want to hear the bizarre rationalizations. Hahaha. Okay, I changed my mind. I won't mind hearing them. I've got my popcorn ready. [emoji2]

But I want to see video footage of your FH loop and your BH backspin flip now. Better watch out. NextLevel may just jump onto this thread and raise a ruckus!!!

Hahahahaha.

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Carl, ttmonster brought up FH flicks. I can't really FH flick, and even my BH flick is pretty weak. But I've been talking about the BH originally. When I replied to ttmonster, I noticed he was talking about the backspin FH flick, and although I don't really understand how exactly you'd do it from the forehand, I kept going. There, I was not talking about the backhand. I went back to the backhand when you replied and explained it.

Say whatever you want, but this is how it is. I don't understand where the miscommunication is. Maybe it's my bad.

I'd really love to post some footage. I think you would see a change, especially in my stance. I even have a (fairly weak) loop on my backhand, now!

Originally, I was only going to record video of me playing my usual partner, but he has not played once during this or the previous month. Some people have surpassed him since, and one of them has a real mean block and good consistency. I think it'd make good footage. Although no one is comfortable being filmed for whatever reason, and honestly, it's a bit embarrassing to ask someone to hold my phone and film just me.

I'm progressing pretty well by myself, and I have half an idea of what I need to do to improve. Namely I've stopped all the jugaadu theory bullshit and listened to NL and just focused on the basic aspects that increase game quality. You'd be wrong in saying I haven't changed.

ttmonster · Sep 7, 2016

Its my bad on this one Carl, I saw Archo's post and presumed he is talking about FH flicking vs underspin, the thing spun out of control from there ... I did not think that he would get into such advanced stuff like underspin flick off Backhand banana ...

Archosaurus said:
Carl, ttmonster brought up FH flicks. I can't really FH flick, and even my BH flick is pretty weak. But I've been talking about the BH originally. When I replied to ttmonster, I noticed he was talking about the backspin FH flick, and although I don't really understand how exactly you'd do it from the forehand, I kept going. There, I was not talking about the backhand. I went back to the backhand when you replied and explained it.

Say whatever you want, but this is how it is. I don't understand where the miscommunication is. Maybe it's my bad.

I'd really love to post some footage. I think you would see a change, especially in my stance. I even have a (fairly weak) loop on my backhand, now!

Originally, I was only going to record video of me playing my usual partner, but he has not played once during this or the previous month. Some people have surpassed him since, and one of them has a real mean block and good consistency. I think it'd make good footage. Although no one is comfortable being filmed for whatever reason, and honestly, it's a bit embarrassing to ask someone to hold my phone and film just me.

I'm progressing pretty well by myself, and I have half an idea of what I need to do to improve. Namely I've stopped all the jugaadu theory bullshit and listened to NL and just focused on the basic aspects that increase game quality. You'd be wrong in saying I haven't changed.

Archosaurus · Sep 7, 2016

ttmonster said:
Its my bad on this one Carl, I saw Archo's post and presumed he is talking about FH flicking vs underspin, the thing spun out of control from there ... I did not think that he would get into such advanced stuff like underspin flick off Backhand banana ...

Hah, so you weren't talking about flicking backspin from the forehand, but you were talking about flicking vs backspin, from the forehand. No wonder it wasn't making too much sense. I presumed it was just way beyond my head.

It's advanced indeed, I dare not even try it in games. But it's fun to screw around and attempt it during more lax sessions.

Jabugo · Sep 7, 2016

Sakumi said:
What I mean is that they flat hit close to the table and loop further away. What I need is variation to be not predictable.

If your opponent flat hits when close to the table, they will not be able to flat hit a loop. In that position, their only option is to block.
If they can flat hit your shot, then you're not really looping but driving. In competitive play, the loop has largely replaced the drive shot because
it is difficult to be aggressive against it when close to the table. Any shot other than a block will mostly go long against a good loop.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 7, 2016

Sorry guys. I am an ballbuster sometimes.

Here:

Archosaurus said:
Somewhat offtopic, but how exactly does one perform a quality backspin flick? Can it be done from the forehand side?

I can see it being done by either brushing down before the whip, or more likely brushing down after the whip, with the hand moving down at the end. Although I'm probably missing the best method.

What's the right way, and exactly how much spin are we looking at here?

This was in response to text quoted FROM ME. The quoted excerpt was my statement that flips could be top, side, dead, or under!!!!!

I see nowhere an indication that Archie was referring to TheMonster. And if he was, why did he quote ME and ask how you would do a backspin flip and if it was some bizarre....I don't even know what he is talking about when he says: "I can see it being done by either brushing down before the whip, or more likely brushing down after the whip, with the hand moving down at the end."

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I have no idea how you can make an FH backspin flip. But I have done it by accident with my crappy FH flip. Hahahaha.

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Archosaurus · Sep 7, 2016

Ach, the evidence is there. I did indeed mention the forehand originally, my bad. I had entirely forgot.

ttmonster probably talked about forehand flicks vs backspin because apparently, a backspin forehand flick isn't really possible, and he didn't know why the hell I'd be asking such a thing.

Yes, my bad. Although I was mainly referring to the backhand, the forehand was an afterthought.

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 7, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Ach, the evidence is there. I did indeed mention the forehand originally, my bad. I had entirely forgot.

ttmonster probably talked about forehand flicks vs backspin because apparently, a backspin forehand flick isn't really possible, and he didn't know why the hell I'd be asking such a thing.

Yes, my bad. Although I was mainly referring to the backhand, the forehand was an afterthought.

Okay. I will let you off the hook since you made me laugh.

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Shuki · Sep 7, 2016

I thought when he asked if it could be done from the forehand side he was talking about flicking with the backhand from the fh side of the table. I think only carl understood what arch was saying at the time.

ttmonster · Sep 7, 2016

Soon Arch will look like the fish from Old man and the Sea ...

UpSideDownCarl said:
Okay. I will let you off the hook since you made me laugh.

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Archosaurus · Sep 7, 2016

ttmonster said:
Soon Arch will look like the fish from Old man and the Sea ...

When he said off the hook, he wasn't talking about harpoons...

ttmonster · Sep 7, 2016

"You did not kill the fish only to keep alive and to sell for food, he thought. You killed him for pride and because you are a fisherman. You loved him when he was alive and you loved him after. If you love him, it is not a sin to kill him. Or is it more?"

Archosaurus said:
When he said off the hook, he wasn't talking about harpoons...

UpSideDownCarl · Sep 7, 2016

Shuki said:
I thought when he asked if it could be done from the forehand side he was talking about flicking with the backhand from the fh side of the table. I think only carl understood what arch was saying at the time.

Lol, all I knew was that I didn't think Archie even knew what he was talking about.

It made about as much sense to me as when I speed read Heidegger or Habermas. Hahaha.

But I want to know if you can FH flip from the BH side and make it backspin without touching the back, the side, the top or the bottom of the ball and yet still go right through it, on the vertical axis of the horizontal plain, but not on the horizontal plane. And in effect go around the inside of the circumference of the middle. And if you did that, would you wind up in Oz?

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Archosaurus · Sep 7, 2016

UpSideDownCarl said:
Lol, all I knew was that I didn't think Archie even knew what he was talking about.

It made about as much sense to me as when I speed read Heidegger or Habermas. Hahaha.

But I want to know if you can FH flip from the BH side and make it backspin without touching the back, the side, the top or the bottom of the ball and yet still go right through it, on the vertical axis of the horizontal plain, but not on the horizontal plane. And in effect go around the inside of the circumference of the middle. And if you did that, would you wind up in Oz?

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I'm just waiting for NL to get in here and preach about racket head speed. If you hit fast enough, anything's possible.

ttmonster · Sep 7, 2016

Then you can dance like Trump at his sermon ...

Archosaurus said:
I'm just waiting for NL to get in here and preach about racket head speed. If you hit fast enough, anything's possible.

Shuki · Sep 8, 2016

Well I'm pretty confident these last few posts have surely answered sakumi's question on how to deal with flat hitters.

Good work team ^_^

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UpSideDownCarl · Sep 8, 2016

Yep. The hijacking is in effect.

But it seems to me that Sakumi's questions were already answered as well as they can be without video footage to see what we are really talking about.

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Archosaurus · Sep 8, 2016

I've never seen a TTD thread on a somewhat complex subject that hasn't got derailed in any way. It's the only forum I know where people understand that you don't need to open a new thread for every silly thing and can instead just discuss whatever interesting/moronic comes to mind.

Besides, if the thread gets derailed, either OP didn't do a good job in taking care of the idiots and the thread immediately got derailed into a "Should I boost my shoe soles for more grip?" tier discussion, or the question was answered and it simply died out.

Pricey 11 · Sep 8, 2016

Try heavy backspin short serves so they can't attack and keep them in a pushing rally as I presume you are better in the short game then your opponent.

You could always do a long low backspin ball which they might try to hit so you might get a few cheap points

Myself usually playing against these players I have a strong serve and third ball attack so I try to end the point before they have a chance of attacking and then when receiving serve keeping the ball short until they make an error or include some no spin pushes so they pop they ball up which I can then end the point

Hope this helps [emoji2][emoji1303]

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How to play against flat hitters.

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