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  1. pingpongpaddy is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I haven't posted on this thread so I will now.
    I have a definition of sorts.
    A looped ball will dive due to the Magnus effect.
    Since all balls with top spin will dive a little bit, it is necessary to qualify my statement
    The Magnus effect, this is the force that makes the ball dive or arc, is proportional to the spin times the speed or v*ω
    where:
    v is the velocity of the ball
    ω is the spin in radians per second.
    So spin and speed are required.
    However, good loops are low over the net and
    ω*r > v r is the radius of the ball.
    This means the bottom surface speed of the ball is moving faster backwards than the ball is moving forwards. On contact the ball will push off the table resulting in more speed but losing some spin. The ball will jump out low at the opponent.

    Too many people call anything with top spin a loop.
    I recently posted a link to a Timo Boll video showing how he loops balls by waiting for them to drop between net and table height. He must hit the ball up a bit to get it over the net but that is good because the highest point in the trajectory should be at the net. Boll relies on the top spin to make the ball drop once the ball goes over the net. Yes, it takes some paddle speed and good timing to manage this.

    Since the Magnus effect is proportional to v*ω it is easy to see that hitting through the ball will result in no spin and thinly brushing the ball will result in no or low speed. The ball should be hit in such a way to maximize v*ω. This can be calculated and optimized. That is what hard headed old fuddy-duddy engineers do. I forgot a few other adjectives.

    Think Goldilocks, not to hard, not too soft, not to thin, not to thick, just right works best.

    I just want to point out that while some low loops can be effective as explained by Timo Boll in a recent video, many that are low are weak and vulnerable to being punished for bad length. The basic good topspin lands deep near the end line which means a higher arc over the net . The depth of the shot is key in pushing the opponent back from a controlling position close to the table. I am sure that there are many occcasions when Boll is driving a ball that is not dropping, as it does not make sense to give his opponent time. However his excellent and unusual facility with spin allows him to play an effective shot, even when hindered by a dropping ball

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    Last edited by pingpongpaddy; 10-13-2021 at 11:39 AM.
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  2. pingpongpaddy is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Funk Fu Master
    This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..
    • With a drive, the focus is more on speed, rather than spin. The Opposite holds true, for Loop.
    • A drive is played with a quicker timing, and more compact stroke, and faster hand-speed. With a Loop, the timing could be a bit later, but the stroke is comparatively larger.
    • With a Loop, your racquet has to drop lower, compared to a drive ..
    • Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.
    • Loops typically create more of an arc, compared to drives..
    • When playing close to the table, I typically (and very rarely) use the (counter) drive, against loops.
    • On the rare occasion that I loop, and IF my loop is blocked, the next shot I will play (or at least try to) is a drive ..

    FFM
    I like yr use of the term. but really you shouldnt worry about it as there are so many people using the terms loop and drive interchangeably. I can remember seeing the original loopers play, and they all saw the loop as a relativel high arcing shot and the drive as a more powerful stroke.
    These days the original version of the shot would be blocked and counter driven with ease, and the new version needs to be and is fairly described. as a loop drive

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  3. antonymous is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Funk Fu Master
    This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..
    • Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.
    That is correct in general, but I don't think that's an accurate description. You can hit the ball at the center and still perform both a loop (if we don't restrict the term to coparatively slow and high-arc shot) and a drive. So for me the difference is not the contanct point per se, but rather the force vector. As loop has to send the ball along the arc, force vector has to be more upward comparing to a drive. The choice of contact point depends on the desired direction of force vector with respect to brushing effect. And the brushing effect is the consequence of applying the force in particular direction and at particular contact point. (Hope that makes sense, as I'm not a native English speaker.)

    In recent tutorial video series on backhand Lee Sang-su mentions that Korean terms differ from those of, as he called them, "ITTF". Koreans use the term "drive" instead of "loop". And if one watches "Ma Long's Instructional" video on YouTube, one can see him performing both forehand and backhand drive shot from different distances from the table (also in slow motion!).

    I'm not sure I have enough experience, but I haven't yet heard the term "loop" here in Russia. As far as I know we just call the shot "topspin", without differentiatng the distance from the table (contrary to Korean terms, where "drive" is a shot away from the table, while "topspin" is in essence the same shot, but at the table) or the quality of the shot (slow high-arc vs. fast low-arc).

    Last edited by antonymous; 10-13-2021 at 02:38 PM.

  4. Gozo is offline
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    #24
    This is from a perspective of an amateur receiver ( pro-players does not apply ):

    Drive / Duraibo: SH!T ! What happened? I could not see the ball coming. It is so fast.

    Loop / Loopo: I saw the ball coming, I am in ready position ( In-Pai ) when I hit the ball but I still f3ckk1ng miss it. The ball just bounce in a funny way away from my swinging arm. I blame the table, it is not flat enough.

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  5. Hasna Haura Hayfa is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Funk Fu Master
    This is my understanding, and please do correct me, cause I'm not sure if I'm right ..
    • With a drive, the focus is more on speed, rather than spin. The Opposite holds true, for Loop.
    • A drive is played with a quicker timing, and more compact stroke, and faster hand-speed. With a Loop, the timing could be a bit later, but the stroke is comparatively larger.
    • With a Loop, your racquet has to drop lower, compared to a drive ..
    • Importantly - The brushing contact point, starts from the lower part of ball, with a loop, and with a drive, the contact point is on the center or top of the ball.
    • Loops typically create more of an arc, compared to drives..
    • When playing close to the table, I typically (and very rarely) use the (counter) drive, against loops.
    • On the rare occasion that I loop, and IF my loop is blocked, the next shot I will play (or at least try to) is a drive ..
    Â

    the question is, if we receive a solid underspin ball (From chopper), can we do a strong top spin, or should we loop


  6. Funk Fu Master is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasna Haura Hayfa
    Â

    the question is, if we receive a solid underspin ball (From chopper), can we do a strong top spin, or should we loop

    I've always considered a loops to be a sub-set of top-spins .. Loops have a higher-arc .. Quite often, loop & top-spin are used interchangeably ..


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