Match video: Thoughts please

strangeloop · Sep 26, 2016

Hi,

Played a practice match recently with my partner. I lost the match 2-1 (best of 3 games). I felt I played pretty well but then I saw this video and went :-o Let me know what I can improve on and what you think I am doing right (approx. nothing?)

I am the one in dark blue t-shirt btw.

TIA

Archosaurus · Sep 26, 2016

I can't give much advice, because you do play better than I do.

However I noticed a few things:

You start the rally mostly on your heels. You push off and it looks like you get to a better more forward weight distribution, but what are you going to do if a rocket serve comes your way? It's a bad habit anyway, and I can see it translating into you being very high during the rally. I think just going on your soles and staying there would benefit you a lot. I think all of us below the high 1000's and low 2000's are working on this somewhat, so no surprise.

Secondly, you seem to hit into the ball on your serve instead of brushing under it. Both of your serves look mostly like no-spin, based on the pushes you do on them. Is it just the video and my inexperience? I'm sorry if the serves are actually heavy!

Then, you push some serves that you really can probably attack at your level. 6:05 for example. If the serve is as light as I think it is, I'm amazed you didn't get looped. Actually most of the serves seem to be clearly long, but you push them pretty lightly. You can push long serves, but you really need to cut down into them, don't you?

suds79 · Sep 26, 2016

Your opponent seems to be forehand dominant who pushes almost every backhand on service receive and I don't think his service game is all that great.

4:42
Why push? Looked like a high bouncing no-spin serve. Attack that. Instead he took control.

However.
6:45
next 2 points. To me looks like pretty much the same setup but you attacked that relatively easy serves and got both points. I would approach his serve with more of that approach. If he serves up those soft balls (example again: 9:41 simply light top), make him pay.

Now video is sometimes hard to tell. Perhaps his motion is really subtle and he has a strong backspin serve in there that is just hard to tell from what we can see but I didn't see much of anything to worry about why you couldn't over the table loop most of those serves.

Lastly, he likes to step around his backhand (feel like even he doesn't have full confidence in his attack) a lot for the forehand. He also stands here it's hard to target the serve to his backhand. Do you have a He Zhi When like pendulum serve that can curve out wide to his backhand? It's really just a standard pendulum serve with either top or back with a lot of side. Can all but guarantee you he will backhand push almost every one. Give him the top versions and 3rd ball attack those. But you also have to have a fast down the line serve if he's cheating over too much. Maybe this is asking too much. As a lefty, this is one of my bread & butters and my righty partner seems to have trouble replicating the same setup. He says it's different. I don't see how so I don't know. Just a thought.

Feel like you're much more balanced overall compared to him. He just happen to get you this time.

suds79 · Sep 26, 2016

Archosaurus said:
Secondly, you seem to hit into the ball on your serve instead of brushing under it. Both of your serves look mostly like no-spin, based on the pushes you do on them. Is it just the video and my inexperience? I'm sorry if the serves are actually heavy!

+1

I didn't really see any serves that would make me afraid to over the table loop at all. Take the first attack on those easy ones.

P1ngP0ng3r · Sep 27, 2016

To me it looks like there is no plan after the service. You just bring the ball (with very little to none effect) in to the game. Try variations in effect, speed and placement with your serve. After a while you will notice that x out of 10 times, your opponents return is often the same on a certain service. By knowing this, you can anticipate on this with your next shot and set the rally directly to your hand.

When playing the BH topspin, you lean backwards. That way you do not have the right momentum to do an acutally fast and/or spinny topspin. Try to lean forward combined with quicker arm and wirst movement. You will have to used to it and in the beginning is will be hard , but in the end you will notice improvement.

Try to "read" the effect (or lack of) your opponent throw at you. Although your FH topspin is pretty decent, the way you playspin is nearly each time the same. That's the reason your topspin sometimes are way off the table or in the net. The way you play the FH topspin (more upwards, bat open or closed, etc) depends on the effect in the ball coming towards you.

Tip: to improve your game, always try to play against higher level players. Surely you will lose, but even after a couple of times you will notice major improvement in your game.

Just my 2 cents....

TT_Rogue · Sep 27, 2016

Your serves are nothing special. Without anything always half long.. With an more aggressive opponent you really would have much more trouble. You need to train more serve variations and improve your placement. Also on receive you are not aggressive enough. In your strokes your body is not enough involved. In general you're not explosive enough on your legs. It seems to me that you are giving away a lot of big chances where you could attack. A lot of times you are doing something like a half topspin when you play a soft ball, that's not good and offers big chances to your opponent.

strangeloop · Sep 27, 2016

Thanks guys. I agree with all your observations.

@Archosaurus, @Suds79, @P1ngP0ng3r and @TT_Rogue, you are correct about my serve. Not much in it. Just putting the ball in play and waiting to see how the point plays out. Not much of a plan. Also I return a lot of long serves with a weak push.

@TT_Rogue, I don't know why I play half topspin in a match situation. During practice, I hit like this.

As P1ngP0ng3r pointed out, my judgement is not good. I don't differentiate well between heavy and weak pushes. Perhaps because of this, my loop is always conservative.

All that said I attacked a few long serves and pushed many more. I think I should back myself to be more aggressive and see what happens. The serves look horribly high in video and my pushes are also half-strokes. Not a smooth under-the-ball motion. I do few things better in practice but seem to tighten up in matches. I will keep this in mind during this sunday's tournament and try to post actual match videos. That will be my actual level. I guess somewhere around 1600 (going by other videos on youtube and MyTT.net).

NextLevel · Sep 27, 2016

I like your game a lot. You did play pretty well - why did you feel differently? Good basic strokes both sides - there is room for technical improvement but that is true for everyone and there isn't anything really wrong with your technique. I am probably watching a different match from what everyone else is watching. You could sometimes play with more spin but that is really about your timing. You sometimes push serves or balls that you can loop but at our level who doesn't? I get the impression that your opponent is the better player but was not ready to battle you and you pushed him more than he wanted to be pushed. He just won with a few tricky serves and more experience since you made some bad shots at the wrong times.

The one thing that you clearly have to improve is your serve depth control. You did not use enough short serves at the right times (though you had a few) and maybe your heavy backspin technique needs work. You did serve some nice change up no spins but I don't get the feeling you did this often enough. Your opponent didn't flick a lot so I would have served a lot more deceptive no spin and pivoted almost immediately after serving. Also too few serves to the short forehand to test the serve return and the flick. Short forehand serve return is a gaping hole in the game of many players at our level so you need to be able to serve there short and consistently.

I am also not sure that your choice of serve is a good serve for your game as you do not pivot a lot. When you serve to the short forehand and he pushed, you often jammed yourself on the backhand side by being too close to the table to play a backhand and not being ready to pivot to play a forehand. Try to remember that if you are pushing too many backhands, you are probably standing too close to the table. You probably should serve backhand or reverse serve to the backhand side and recover to the middle of the table and be ready to play both backhand and forehand or serve backhand/reverse from the middle of the table into the short forehand and be ready to use the forehand for most of the table to your right and backhand for the smaller space to your left. Or you could learn to pivot and then use more forehand for everything without changing your serve.

You also likely need to learn to play down the line when pulled to your wide forehand. And you need a real backhand loop - your current stroke is a good drive, but it won't time the tricky balls well.

Archosaurus · Sep 27, 2016

I think it goes without mentioning, but good that you posted video.

Even if we say that you should do this or that, I think you know that only a few here can really perform "properly" all the time, and even they are improving their game all the time.

To tell you the truth, sometimes on bad days when I don't feel confident, I serve light spin too, or reverse topspin that I find easier. It lets me work on my attack under a disadvantage, too. Sometimes it's hard when you're not very skilled and well drilled to keep your best.

If you wanna get better, I don't think that's any good, though. And you're asking how to get better, right?

NextLevel said:
Also too few serves to the short forehand to test the serve return and the flick. Short forehand serve return is a gaping hole in the game of many players at our level so you need to be able to serve there short and consistently.

Everything you said sounds so familiar to me and I can see where you're coming from. Absolutely right. However this is one huge thing that I discovered from Larry Hodges' blog and tried it out. Serving short and heavy to the forehand.

It's damn awkward to receive serve there if it's heavy with some back/side that curves away towards your wide forehand. Serve really heavy backhand serves short there and see what you get!

strangeloop · Sep 27, 2016

NextLevel said:
I like your game a lot. You did play pretty well - why did you feel differently? Good basic strokes both sides - there is room for technical improvement but that is true for everyone and there isn't anything really wrong with your technique. I am probably watching a different match from what everyone else is watching. You could sometimes play with more spin but that is really about your timing. You sometimes push serves or balls that you can loop but at our level who doesn't? I get the impression that your opponent is the better player but was not ready to battle you and you pushed him more than he wanted to be pushed. He just won with a few tricky serves and more experience since you made some bad shots at the wrong times.

The one thing that you clearly have to improve is your serve depth control. You did not use enough short serves at the right times (though you had a few) and maybe your heavy backspin technique needs work. You did serve some nice change up no spins but I don't get the feeling you did this often enough. Your opponent didn't flick a lot so I would have served a lot more deceptive no spin and pivoted almost immediately after serving. Also too few serves to the short forehand to test the serve return and the flick. Short forehand serve return is a gaping hole in the game of many players at our level so you need to be able to serve there short and consistently.

I am also not sure that your choice of serve is a good serve for your game as you do not pivot a lot. When you serve to the short forehand and he pushed, you often jammed yourself on the backhand side by being too close to the table to play a backhand and not being ready to pivot to play a forehand. Try to remember that if you are pushing too many backhands, you are probably standing too close to the table. You probably should serve backhand or reverse serve to the backhand side and recover to the middle of the table and be ready to play both backhand and forehand or serve backhand/reverse from the middle of the table into the short forehand and be ready to use the forehand for most of the table to your right and backhand for the smaller space to your left. Or you could learn to pivot and then use more forehand for everything without changing your serve.

You also likely need to learn to play down the line when pulled to your wide forehand. And you need a real backhand loop - your current stroke is a good drive, but it won't time the tricky balls well.

Fine points. I admire your tactical thinking. I think I will be more stable if I use backhand serves. I receive with a push to FH at times to pull my opponent out of position and open up the table. But I need better quality pushes.

Reg serve and pivot, I will work on that. You have made me realize a few things.

I want to get to the next level maybe in 3-4 months. I will try to record and post more match videos.

NextLevel · Sep 27, 2016

strangeloop said:
Fine points. I admire your tactical thinking. I think I will be more stable if I use backhand serves. I receive with a push to FH at times to pull my opponent out of position and open up the table. But I need better quality pushes.

Reg serve and pivot, I will work on that. You have made me realize a few things.

I want to get to the next level maybe in 3-4 months. I will try to record and post more match videos.

Usually, you get better commentary if you talk about what you are trying to do. At our level, everyone's game has weaknesses. A lot of where you want to take your game depends on what you are trying to do. Me, I am always trying to get an advantage on serve and serve return and shorten the points with strong opening - I just don't read spin or move well enough to do so consistently. Then I block on both sides but I am trying to counter with more power.

For you it might be entirely different, but you just posted the match and people are giving you comments without knowing what you are trying to do so they are basing it on how they think you should play. You should say what you want to do so people can help you do it.

OldschoolPenholder · Sep 27, 2016

P1ngP0ng3r said:
Tip: to improve your game, always try to play against higher level players. Surely you will lose, but even after a couple of times you will notice major improvement in your game.

I agree but disagree somewhat with this tip. I feel it is only 1/3 of the Path to Self-perfection. To improve your game, play against ALL levels of players!

You play the higher-level players to find your Weaknesses. You play them to get a sense of how they go about setting up to play their Winning shots. You play them with your higher-percentage shots which generally should be returned by them, which forces you to up your Game/Skill from a one-shot to continue to be steady/rally.

You play lower-level players to work your Game, to work your higher-percentage shots be it serves or the Rambo FH loop, etc. You also play them to learn to probe/see Weaknesses in your partner's Game and learn to exploit them.

Last but not least, you play same-level-as-you players ... your peers/equals. This will provide feedback to see if your Game works. At times, as you play your equals, they may play like a higher-level player and at times they will play as lower-level players... this will give you feedback on what you are doing right or wrong and how to go about winning the point.

Play anyone regardless of level. But have a basic idea of their level and look to work different aspects of your Game accordingly.

HTH.

strangeloop · Sep 27, 2016

NextLevel said:
Usually, you get better commentary if you talk about what you are trying to do. At our level, everyone's game has weaknesses. A lot of where you want to take your game depends on what you are trying to do. Me, I am always trying to get an advantage on serve and serve return and shorten the points with strong opening - I just don't read spin or move well enough to do so consistently. Then I block on both sides but I am trying to counter with more power.

For you it might be entirely different, but you just posted the match and people are giving you comments without knowing what you are trying to do so they are basing it on how they think you should play. You should say what you want to do so people can help you do it.

The honest answer would be I want to reach a level where I don't react jerkily to incoming balls. in other words, better recovery. I should calmly play whatever strokes I have learned. I forgot this when I pushed back all those high serves. As you pointed out correctly, I made mistakes at crucial points and lost the match. I don't want to do that. Beyond that I want to develop smooth footwork. I have been watching this clip over and over from a post on MyTT

you can see how she meets the ball in front of her body on both flanks. She is getting good power without compromising her recovery or readiness for the next ball. This neatness is what I seek and wish for.

NextLevel · Sep 27, 2016

strangeloop said:
The honest answer would be I want to reach a level where I don't react jerkily to incoming balls. in other words, better recovery. I should calmly play whatever strokes I have learned. I forgot this when I pushed back all those high serves. As you pointed out correctly, I made mistakes at crucial points and lost the match. I don't want to do that. Beyond that I want to develop smooth footwork. I have been watching this clip over and over from a post on MyTT

you can see how she meets the ball in front of her body on both flanks. She is getting good power without compromising her recovery or readiness for the next ball. This neatness is what I seek and wish for.

Ah, how many hours do you train and play a week since you want that?

IF you notice she is rotating her body using her feet and core. The most important thing she does is that she rotates her shoulders and then when she hits her shots, she uses her body rotation and her feet to reset her ready stance for the next ball. It's a subtle use and sequencing that most people don't do properly. You only know if someone is even getting it right when they can do it in response to random balls.

It is very physically demanding and not something that one just desires.

strangeloop · Sep 27, 2016

NextLevel said:
Ah, how many hours do you train and play a week since you want that?

IF you notice she is rotating her body using her feet and core. The most important thing she does is that she rotates her shoulders and then when she hits her shots, she uses her body rotation and her feet to reset her ready stance for the next ball. It's a subtle use and sequencing that most people don't do properly. You only know if someone is even getting it right when they can do it in response to random balls.

It is very physically demanding and not something that one just desires.

Right now I play around 10 hours a week. I used to play 20 hours a week before I got injured over a year ago.

To be honest, I can't even imitate her footwork and body movement. But I am sure with some conscious effort one can get close to it. Health and fitness permitting, of course! That's the biggest obstacle for the majority of us. Even if I can do it in a controlled practice setting I would be thrilled. Slowly it will creep into muscle memory I hope.

Edit: As you and others have pointed out already, there is so much low-hanging fruit that I should target to improve in the near future. Like serve, receive, pushes, opening loops and tactical ability. I am not going to focus all my energy on perfect footwork.

OldschoolPenholder · Sep 27, 2016

The first thing I noticed of her was her footwork and how she is 'light'... she is always on the balls of her feet, adjusting moving, never flat-footed.

Props and Respect to her!

Takkyu_wa_inochi · Sep 28, 2016

Hi strangeloop

i saw your match video, and also your multi-ball drill video.
On the multiball you looked quite good, but on the match you don't look that good, i was a bit disappointed after seeing you drilling to be honest.

So here is my take:
- You have a lot of room to improve your serves. You're doing always the same serve. Its got very little spin, its too high and too long. First try to control the height, to do that you have to hit the ball quite lower than you do now. The lower you hit the ball the lower it will be. Then make it short, two bounces, or even three bounces on the table. Even if your serve has little spin, but its low and short, it will much more difficult for your opponent to attack. Then really work to put more spin on the serves. be more relaxed and think about brushing the ball, and practice practice. Start every drill with serve and return.

- as someone else said, you lack a plan after your serves, because they are weak serves mainly. It goes together

- i see you pushing with your BH too many balls that you should really attack. Sometimes you do, I think you have the technique to attack all those long balls (with either FH or BH), but somehow you don't have the right attitude. You should not push any of them, especially not during a practice match ! Furthermore, your pushing technique is quite poor with that BH, its too passive, the ball is high and easy for the opponent

- when you get the initiative, especially with your FH, most of the time you were winning the point. you can do several topspins in a row, or finish with a big drive. Thats good and what you should do all the time. Thats why you should STOP pushing !! VERBOTEN, 2 points for the opponent when practising !!

- in the second and third set, what changed is that your opponent was a bit more agressive on his return game, and also he played several times wide to your FH. You are stronger on BH to BH and when pivoting. but not when moving from BH to FH. Somehow you missed a lot of those wide balls and when you got them, he just blocked into the open space on the BH side. I've seen you in your drills you have the speed to move, but its a drill with little randomness and little variation. I think the solution when the other guy plays wide in your FH is to play the ball a bit later (! yes later !!) than you do, and do NOT try to play 100% or 90% power, but only 70% power those balls BUT with a lot of spin, adding spin makes it difficult for your opponent to block, and gives you more time to play the next ball. You've always tried to put 90%+ power and play cross and missed them, or sometimes you took the ball too early for a net miss. Another reason for those net misses is that you don't use the rotation of your hips enough. Anyway it would have been an easy block for your opponent. You should try also to play 50% of those balls down the line in his BH.

TLDR: put more spin, in serve or game. i think you have good speed, but not very good touch. maybe relax more. and practice touch. think also about sidespin. Play more down the line instead of cross. Put more variation (spin+speed+placement) in your game. Even if a player has an excellent topspin, very spinny and powerful, after a few balls, if he doesn't change the amount of speed and spin, it becomes very easy to adapt and make good blocks

strangeloop · Sep 29, 2016

Takkyu_wa_inochi said:
- i see you pushing with your BH too many balls that you should really attack. Sometimes you do, I think you have the technique to attack all those long balls (with either FH or BH), but somehow you don't have the right attitude. You should not push any of them, especially not during a practice match !

Hmm.. invaluable points esp. the attitude part. After the video only I realized that I landed many of the BH opening shots. Should persist with that instead of pushing and perhaps place it at different spots.

I like your advice reg reducing power when hitting from wide FH. That might buy a few milliseconds to cover lost ground as well. Thanks mate for your keen eye.

Archosaurus · Sep 29, 2016

strangeloop said:
Hmm.. invaluable points esp. the attitude part. After the video only I realized that I landed many of the BH opening shots. Should persist with that instead of pushing and perhaps place it at different spots.

I like your advice reg reducing power when hitting from wide FH. That might buy a few milliseconds to cover lost ground as well. Thanks mate for your keen eye.

Hitting a slower wide forehand gives you a LOT more time than a few milliseconds. Just make it spinny.

From what I understand, you want to make the ball arrive at the opponent's side slower than normal, but you want to have as much acceleration after, to give them pressure. They can't hit the ball until it's arrived on their side, after all.

strangeloop · Oct 6, 2016

Lost in first round itself this Sunday. Here's the video as promised:

Another good example of difference between practice and competition.

Match video: Thoughts please

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