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  1. bobpuls is offline
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    #1

    Do the pro`s now the rules of table tennis ?

    I just see this video with Pat Gerell and i found 50 % of his serves are illegal according to this ittf rule:
    2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry.
    im speaking about starting his serve outside of side of the table ,which Pat is doing a lot ....
    Do i understand it wrong or the pros just do not care ?


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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    maybe this videos are right , but i just hate them ..... grrrrrrrrrr

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    #4
    The rule only specifies the back line, not the side line.

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Baal
    The rule only specifies the back line, not the side line.
    The ball has to be behind the back line, and above the playing surface.

    If you move it past the side lines, the ball is technically no longer behind the back line, although it's still over the playing surface. Behind meaning the area of space infinitely backwards, with the boundaries at where the table's width ends.

    This is how I've know it to be, at least.

    If it really is like this, the rules need a serious re-write. The ITTF handbook is crap, to put it plainly.

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    The ball has to be behind the back line, and above the playing surface.

    If you move it past the side lines, the ball is technically no longer behind the back line, although it's still over the playing surface. Behind meaning the area of space infinitely backwards, with the boundaries at where the table's width ends.

    This is how I've know it to be, at least.

    If it really is like this, the rules need a serious re-write. The ITTF handbook is crap, to put it plainly.
    I've always been told it was behind the end line, and you could stand off to the side as far as you want. So it basically meant, no serving over the table. As in you can't reach forward to do a dribble bounce that lands half an inch over the other side of the net.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LordPippington
    I've always been told it was behind the end line, and you could stand off to the side as far as you want. So it basically meant, no serving over the table. As in you can't reach forward to do a dribble bounce that lands half an inch over the other side of the net.
    That's clearly stated, yes.

    There's always the possibility that I've simply misunderstood the rules, because I can't find a source to back me up. I tried. I could have sworn that I've read an official document stating otherwise, but I can't find anything, so it might as well not exist.

    However the rules are still vague even on simple things like this. These things should clearly be defined so even idiots like me can understand it in clear English.


    If the rule doesn't regulate serving over the side lines, then my life just got a lot easier, actually.

  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    The ball has to be behind the back line, and above the playing surface.

    If you move it past the side lines, the ball is technically no longer behind the back line, although it's still over the playing surface. Behind meaning the area of space infinitely backwards, with the boundaries at where the table's width ends.

    This is how I've know it to be, at least.

    If it really is like this, the rules need a serious re-write. The ITTF handbook is crap, to put it plainly.
    Guys, I am pretty confident that Baal had this right.

    The ball needs to be further back than the end line. But it does not have to be within the side lines. Theoretically, the end line continues off into space infinitely. If you are outside of the side lines, you just still need to be further back than the end line.

    The reason for this is, if you go wider, the advantage is mitigated by the fact that you still have to be behind the end line. From closer, a wider angle gives you more of the table. If you are behind the end line but wider, it shows the receiver the range of angles you could serve to because you still need to bounce the ball on your side and the opponent's side. So the wider you serve from the clearer it is that you will serve to a decently wide angle. Therefore the receiver can move further over to cover the angle before the serve occurs.

    This is why it is quite common to see a server standing with his body next to the side of the table with his forearm on or just above the table holding the ball and the ball clearly behind the end line.

    As far as the phrase "over the the playing surface", I am going to assume you used the wrong word ("over") because you are not a native English speaker.

    In the context of that phrase, the meaning would be that the ball has to be over the table. Which also would mean it could not be behind the the end line.

    The actual meaning here is that the ball has to be above, or higher than the playing surface. So, you can't take the ball under the table and out of view before you toss it.

    That is another reason why the pros have the forearm over the table with the ball behind the table.





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    #9

    Do the pro`s now the rules of table tennis ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    That's clearly stated, yes.

    There's always the possibility that I've simply misunderstood the rules, because I can't find a source to back me up. I tried. I could have sworn that I've read an official document stating otherwise, but I can't find anything, so it might as well not exist.

    However the rules are still vague even on simple things like this. These things should clearly be defined so even idiots like me can understand it in clear English.


    If the rule doesn't regulate serving over the side lines, then my life just got a lot easier, actually.
    Yeah, it would be good if you didn't pretend you knew things you don't. There is no rule about serving that says anything about the sidelines. You CAN serve from wider than the side lines and you can serve so the ball goes off the side lines on the other side.

    Here, you can see that He Zhi Wen stands to the outside of the table even though his serves are mostly behind the table.






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    #10
    That does make sense, Carl. I had considered the whole advantage, or lack of, that you could get from serving wider. It kinda caps out around the sidelines anyway. So it'd make no sense to have as a strict rule. There is also no side line boundary stated anywhere.

    Good to know, it's one less serve-technique burden off my neck. Although serving way out from the side isn't always practical anyway.

    EDIT: Yeah, one thing I HAVE known is that the server can be as far as they like as long as the ball is in the proper area. It'd be madness if the server had to be inside the sidelines' boundary.

    Very early on when I was starting, I actually thought that, and something didn't add up.
    Last edited by Archosaurus; 10-09-2016 at 12:15 AM.

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    #11
    By the way, from the spot where He Zhi Wen is serving he gets maximum effect because, if Schlager moves towards his FH side for the wide angle, He Zhi Wen can go down the line since he is contacting the ball right behind the side line. If he stays home to cover down the line, He Zhi Wen gets crazy angles to the wide FH.


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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    By the way, from the spot where He Zhi Wen is serving he gets maximum effect because, if Schlager moves towards his FH side for the wide angle, He Zhi Wen can go down the line since he is contacting the ball right behind the side line. If he stays home to cover down the line, He Zhi Wen gets crazy angles to the wide FH.


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    I've been experimenting with this and I keep moving more and more to the left. It started when I saw Liu Guoliang serving very much so from outside the sidelines.

    Is there some downside to this, or a reason you would want to serve from more of the middle of the table?

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    I've been experimenting with this and I keep moving more and more to the left. It started when I saw Liu Guoliang serving very much so from outside the sidelines.

    Is there some downside to this, or a reason you would want to serve from more of the middle of the table?

    As long as you can still serve down the line, it should still be fine

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    As long as you can still serve down the line, it should still be fine
    So more or less from the sideline is a good position, because of the angles? Ideally directly down the line, and wide backhand coverage.


    What about serving more from the middle of the table to get wide forehand coverage?

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LordPippington
    I've always been told it was behind the end line, and you could stand off to the side as far as you want. So it basically meant, no serving over the table. As in you can't reach forward to do a dribble bounce that lands half an inch over the other side of the net.
    This is correct.

    You can learn this from the Laws of Table Tennis and the Handbook for Match Officials. They ONLY refer to the back line.

    One could argue for other reasons that PG's serves are on the verge of illegality (like many other pros) but not for the reason given by the OP -- because what he complained about is not even part of the serving rule!!

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    Last edited by Baal; 10-09-2016 at 01:30 AM.

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    So more or less from the sideline is a good position, because of the angles? Ideally directly down the line, and wide backhand coverage.


    What about serving more from the middle of the table to get wide forehand coverage?

    That's what moving your feet is for. You move after you serve to cover whatever angles are important. You don't have to stand where you served. That would be very inflexible.

    Always prepare for the cross court shot, since it is very likely. But don't ignore the other corner either.

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    Last edited by songdavid98; 10-09-2016 at 01:55 AM.
    Always go forward

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    #17
    Ok now i got it.
    Thanks and sorry pro`s .

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    That's what moving your feet is for. You move after you serve to cover whatever angles are important. You don't have to stand where you served. That would be very inflexible.

    Always prepare for the cross court shot, since it is very likely. But don't ignore the other corner either.
    With coverage, I meant at how high of an angle you can serve.

    So from all the way to one side, you could cover quite wide cross court, and directly down the line.

    From more towards the middle, the angles even up, but you get more down the line.

  19. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Archosaurus
    With coverage, I meant at how high of an angle you can serve.

    So from all the way to one side, you could cover quite wide cross court, and directly down the line.

    From more towards the middle, the angles even up, but you get more down the line.
    Archo, you can serve from anywhere you want. Watch pro matches and see how often they serve from the center of the table.

    Usually, if they are doing that, it is a serve like the tomahawk. But at mid level it is more likely to see a player serve from the FH side or the BH side rather than from the center of the table. Usually, a serve from the wide FH is a setup to control the table. Whereas, I am not sure what serving from the center would do aside from leaving your switching point, your wide BH and your wide FH open.

    Do you have a setup from the middle?




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    #20
    Also, it is interesting to me how, yet another thread gets turned into a conversation about Archo.


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