Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

decoy · Dec 16, 2017

ill be buying myself a nice 1080p 120fps camera soon tm.. so ill be taking videos of interesting players around me and so on.

also anyone able to get their hands on a dhs N301.? aparently one of our club members has a contact in china that has access. if anyone is interested you could pm me.. also TTD really needs a discord server

berndtjgmann · Dec 16, 2017

I was a member of the penhold rpb club from 2000 to 2005, when injuries to my right arm because of falls in the winter of 2005 and 2006, a ministroke and subsequent yearlong depressive period forced me to give up competitive table tennis.

I was something of a table tennis maverick, employing a reverse penhold backhand with a Wang Hao grip using a 6-ply SuperHock Cpen racket rated oh, about OFF+++ mainly in hardbat/hardbat events and a Nittaku CP-548 carbon Cpen with Donic Supersonic40 in sponge events.

Although not a big dude, I had strong wrists and fingers, so the rpb came fairly naturally to me. With inverted I found it, as some of you have probably also found, a very natural weapon for pulling my opponent to his extreme backhand side by employing lots of right sidespin plus topspin. Against the mortals I was playing this usually kept them from stepping around to loop forehands to my backhand side.

I don't know whether this has been mentioned or not, but one very useful tactic with either inverted sponge or a hardbat is after a backhand/backhand exchange to hit a hard flat backhand down the backhand line with little sidespin. Then move like hell to cover your forehand because if your opponent gets to it, he/she's probably gonna hook loop it back to your forehand side and if you're not ready for that it could be fatal.

Oh yeah, counterdriving: use your thumb and forefinger to open up the blade to say 30-35 degrees and stroke through the ball, hardbat or sponge, without much wrist. Further away from the table you can do a Wang Hao number if you feel comfortable with your rpb. With a hardbat, you're better off chopping. Yeah, hardbat to hardbat, it's possible

Wetwork_Orange · Dec 17, 2017

Played penhold for almost 15 years. Switched to Shakehand in the past year or so. Getting a bit old, footwork ain't as quick

suds79 · Dec 17, 2017

Wetwork_Orange said:
Played penhold for almost 15 years. Switched to Shakehand in the past year or so. Getting a bit old, footwork ain't as quick

I get it. And I suppose maybe that makes sense. But I think on this topic is an chance to mention a point Larry Hodges made in his book "Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers" that I liked.

I'm paraphrasing but he basically said if you don't use it, you lose it. So the point that he was making was that he felt it'd better to approach this issue with the mindset of "If I'm getting older, that just means I have to work even harder on my fitness & footwork." vs "Well I'm getting older so i'll look to play in the middle of the table more. More balanced game". That will only lead you towards less mobility which will hurt you even more.

Agree, disagree I understand and can see someone making a point in either case. But I think it's something interesting worth mentioning.

Wetwork_Orange · Dec 17, 2017

suds79 said:
I get it. And I suppose maybe that makes sense. But I think on this topic is an chance to mention a point Larry Hodges made in his book "Table Tennis Tactics for Thinkers" that I liked.

I'm paraphrasing but he basically said if you don't use it, you lose it. So the point that he was making was that he felt it'd better to approach this issue with the mindset of "If I'm getting older, that just means I have to work even harder on my fitness & footwork." vs "Well I'm getting older so i'll look to play in the middle of the table more. More balanced game". That will only lead you towards less mobility which will hurt you even more.

Agree, disagree I understand and can see someone making a point in either case. But I think it's something interesting worth mentioning.

That's interesting, i never really thought of it that way. I'll have to look this up.

On a slightly different note, there are exceptions to the rule and if anything, my injuries have lessened. About 10 years back i tore a knee ligament. Soccer, rugby and MMA finally took its toll. Took a long time to get back to a hundred percent. But after that, i became a bit more wary. Started getting back into TT again and decided i wasn't gonna risk another injury by running around for forehands as much as i used too. Still played penhold for a while. Decided to give SH a go one day and ive been there since. Backhands are something else now. I still pop back to PH every once in a while.

PierreAd · Dec 18, 2017

decoy said:
Prepare for some hot garbage

Really nice game, thanks for sharing. I like how you guys play a controlled game on the first shots. I'm sorry for not going back further in the topic, but how long have you been playing PH? Your FH seems great, no wonder your opponent keeps playing on your backhand side. I do hope you'll send more vides of yourself once you'll get your new camera ;-)

Are you around Dublin? Lived there 6 months myself, but I didn't play TT, I was injured at that time unfortunately.

decoy · Dec 19, 2017

yeah the club is in dublin near dundrum. ive been playing for about 8 years with PH. the guy i was playing with knows very well that im terrible at blocking deep shot to my bh

PierreAd said:
Are you around Dublin? Lived there 6 months myself, but I didn't play TT, I was injured at that time unfortunately.

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suds79 · Dec 22, 2017

I hit the other night vs a buddy rated a little higher than me. His off the table looping game is a lot like mine in that he has heavy, heavy hook on his FH. Although for his BH, he has hook there also. My RPB tends to be more straight with little to no hook and I'd say I have good power back there.

But in watching something he was doing, I got an idea and gave it a while of adding some hook to my RPB. I like having options in situations to either normal loop or take a little off the ball by coming around the side of it with hook. I do this on FH all the time. But never backhand.

The adjustment was pretty simple for me. Try this out RPB users and let me know if you have any success either.

So you're going to still do your normal RPB drive or loop motion & follow throw. This is assuming you hit the ball pretty much straight on your RPB like I do. However, your starting position is where it's different. Instead of the face of your blade resting where it normally does before you stroke it,

(guessing parallel to the ground or close to it)

the head of your blade is pointing straight down. Perpendicular to the ground. Completely vertical. From there hit your normal RPB on that incoming ball. Chances are by the time you contact the ball, you'll be hitting much more, or maybe even completely on the side of the ball. It will curve like crazy.

Just be careful to still get some topspin on that ball as it's easy to send long. You might dial down the arm motion just a pinch and go ever so slightly more wristy to feel it out.

I find this shot, much like my FH hook, is easier to execute when I let the ball drop low. Like below my waist level. I never hit hook shots on high balls. In my opinion, those are for driving.

What about you guys? Do any of you ever do this shot? If so, how do you execute it? Same manner? Different? thx.

OldschoolPenholder · Dec 22, 2017

suds79 said:

I think i understand what you are saying. I do something like this i believe but it's not totally perpendicular. My RPB stroke is I believe like a SH BH. One of the members in my club started taking lessons, started learning RPB after me, and her stroke is rounding. I started off rounding until it was pointed out to me. Then I started more of a straight stroke.

I don't have the head at 90, but maybe at 45?

Food for thought, thank you suds!

suds79 · Dec 22, 2017

OldschoolPenholder said:
I don't have the head at 90, but maybe at 45?

Right you've got it and get the concept. I suppose you have options then for what you're going for. 45 probably is a more natural feeling nice blend of side & top. Then for giggles yeah you can really try to go for that close to 90 for some extreme bend when you want it.

If you get a ton of hook on there, sometimes that can be a tough ball to track for some.

songdavid98 · Dec 22, 2017

hey, how do you guys feel about forehand flipping serves? Are you confident in it? Penholders supposedly have an advantage, but I'm not really feeling it. (maybe it's because I'm a lefty flipping righty serves?)

EDIT: I'm talking about short sidespin/ sidetopspin serves. How hard can you flip those confidently?

OldschoolPenholder · Dec 22, 2017

songdavid98 said:
hey, how do you guys feel about forehand flipping serves? Are you confident in it? Penholders supposedly have an advantage, but I'm not really feeling it. (maybe it's because I'm a lefty flipping righty serves?)

1 of my weaknesses because my footwork is slow.

If i get to the ball and it's nospin, I'm ok, but if i read is as heavy downspin, instead of me flipping the serve, i would angle push it to extreme FH.

songdavid98 · Dec 22, 2017

OldschoolPenholder said:
1 of my weaknesses because my footwork is slow.

If i get to the ball and it's nospin, I'm ok, but if i read is as heavy downspin, instead of me flipping the serve, i would angle push it to extreme FH.

I'm talking about short sidespin/ sidetopspin serves. How hard can you flip those confidently? If they're high, it's easy, but the low ones, I usually end up flipping them long. Maybe I'm lifting them unnecessarily, but I already feel that my shot is pretty low, so I don't think that's the case. I ruled out timing as the issue.

Do you guys go for mostly wrist (80-90%)? Do you think of them as a forehand drive? Do you droop your paddle down when you do it?

I've been practicing more of a wristy fast flip, but not that successful. Also, I'm too chicken to pull it out in game if the serve is low

OldschoolPenholder · Dec 22, 2017

songdavid98 said:
I'm talking about short sidespin/ sidetopspin serves. How hard can you flip those confidently? If they're high, it's easy, but the low ones, I usually end up flipping them long. Maybe I'm lifting them unnecessarily, but I already feel that my shot is pretty low, so I don't think that's the case. I ruled out timing as the issue.

Do you guys go for mostly wrist (80-90%)? Do you think of them as a forehand drive? Do you droop your paddle down when you do it?

I've been practicing more of a wristy fast flip, but not that successful. Also, I'm too chicken to pull it out in game if the serve is low

ah ok, yeah, i don't have enough confidence due to slow footwork ... haven't worked on flips all that much. still trying to get decent with the RPB.

suds79 · Dec 22, 2017

songdavid98 said:
hey, how do you guys feel about forehand flipping serves? Are you confident in it? Penholders supposedly have an advantage, but I'm not really feeling it. (maybe it's because I'm a lefty flipping righty serves?)

EDIT: I'm talking about short sidespin/ sidetopspin serves. How hard can you flip those confidently?

Personally I don't see it in a flip. On serves with the wrist freedom in the pendulum motion? Sure. But on the FH flip? I honestly find FH flipping a lot easier with shakehand.

That's because I can bend my wrist back more and almost windshield wiper like come over the ball motion. With penhold, I can't really do that. It's somewhat the same reason why I complain about the penhold FH fade being harder to do than what a shakehander goes through. They can simply bend their wrist back and fade it. I hope that all makes sense.

So my standard vs say anything top, dead, maybe pure backspin (just a lot of aggressive elbow action coming up to life that ball) I'll do what you might consider a normal FH flip. It's kinda like my normal FH drive just done over the table.

However, if I'm going against say a righty's side/back pendulum serve and it's short & wide to my FH, I usually don't try to flip these. But if I did, i might try that XU FH wristy flip. It's tricky looking and you can kinda flip under the ball (it returns side backspin to them usually loaded with spin) somewhat making it easier to do that vs any serve that has some sort of back on it. The side returned to them can really give people troubles. The problem what that stroke is when you get ready to so it and the serve actually has some top on it. I find doing that wristing looping motion and actually coming over the ball tricky sometimes. In those cases I usually just tell myself i should have done my normal flip.

All that being said, i notice a lot of lefty penholders who get short serves to the FH side will often simply drop a push short just over the net making the righty stretch to get that ball. From there you can get a 4th ball attack a decent number of times.

Just my 2 cents.... But yeah. Vs a side/back spin serve that's low & short? That Xu Xin wristy flip is pretty safe & easy. Just put your robot on side back and feed it to you and give it a whirl. I think you'll like it.

More edits: So there's a Wang Hao transcribed instructional video where he's talking about the over the table BH RPB loop. And he mentions that with his stroke, he can return topspin (as you might imagine) but also backspin sometimes with it. I can only assume he's doing the same thing as what I'm talking about. Just with his BH.

Flatstyk · Dec 22, 2017

I found the Zhuang Zedong instructional of interest and to me it appears he is showing a version of the checkmark/whip stroke that Brett Clarke suggests for most everything. About four minutes, showing both against backspin and not... Forehand flipping from about 18:34 to 22:20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjMWYUJSiXg&list=UUyxYiVS_WXnB5hwZWXYBPqA&index=5&feature=plcp

OldschoolPenholder · Dec 22, 2017

FWIW, I've tried the whip/checkmark motion for my SH BH loop as well as RPB loop ... it works and it's powerful!

Flatstyk · Dec 22, 2017

OSPH did you notice the quick "checkmark" set-up to the very effective reverse pendulum serve employed by Arinobu to win the final at US Open? I am going to be working on that one!

Andyzhao123 · Dec 23, 2017

I'm a c-pen beginner, learning both TPB and RPB. My grip is very similar to Ma Lin's, so can switch between the two.

songdavid98 · Dec 23, 2017

Flatstyk said:
I found the Zhuang Zedong instructional of interest and to me it appears he is showing a version of the checkmark/whip stroke that Brett Clarke suggests for most everything. About four minutes, showing both against backspin and not... Forehand flipping from about 18:34 to 22:20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjMWYUJSiXg&list=UUyxYiVS_WXnB5hwZWXYBPqA&index=5&feature=plcp

what is the checkmark thing that you guys are talking about

EDIT: nvm, i think i know what you guys are talking about

EDIT 2: holy shit, I'm gonna try this out later

Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

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