Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

suds79 · Nov 20, 2017

Christian Adrian Aniceta said:
I know its a bad idea to suddenly move from a completely different set up.. but I hate the stiffness of my clipper and wish to play as a looper

100% my experience also. I loved my Clipper for SP play. But not so much inverted & looping. That and I think that blade is a pinch fast for me.

Christian Adrian Aniceta · Nov 20, 2017

suds79 said:
100% my experience also. I loved my Clipper for SP play. But not so much inverted & looping. That and I think that blade is a pinch fast for me.

yes.. I originally bought the clipper for flat hitting with Stiga royal and imitate a bit of Liu Guoliang's style...
as I played more.. I came to like top spin rally more.

James Livesey · Nov 20, 2017

As far as I know, hh2 should be similar if not faster than a clipper, but will have slightly better flex. I've recently moved from avalox bt550 (an all+, pure looping machine) to a cheap yinhe offensive 5 ply. What I've found is that apart from the speed increase, it's easier for me to perform bh (TPB and rpb) with the lower throw and stiffness, but it's harder for me to be consistent with the fh. I'm wondering if this has also been the case with XX. His bh seems way more confident now.

suds79 · Nov 21, 2017

Youtube video mirroring

So this is pretty cool. If you're like me and have players whose games you want to emulate, sometimes you like aspect of a player's game but they're left handed when you're right. Or for me, they're right handed but you're left.

That's where this handy tool comes in. http://amacfie.github.io/MirrorYouTubeVideos/

On the page it show's a "Mirror/unmirror" link. I use Chrome as my primary browser. Drag it to the boookmarks up at top and from then whenever watching a youtube video, you can just click that to flip the video and Voilà, it's mirrored.

I love Xue Fei's game so I wanted to get the point of view of what that would look like for me being left handed. Furthermore, all I have to do is look for matches of him vs left handed players since most of the time I play righties and it's the same setup. He deals with everything I do then.

Hope it's useful for some of you. ex: possibly Xu Xin for all the righties out there.

mky · Nov 21, 2017

This question has been on my mind for a while and since Xu Xin just won Swedish open so I thought it might be a good time to bring it up. Was Wang Hao ahead of his time in terms of adapting RPB? From what I can understand he didn’t learn or train TPB at all. He trained exclusively with RPB like a SH player but with a different grip, which is what China is doing now? Xu Xin played with TPB early in his career but since has changed to RPB to attack, TPB to lob and block, but his backhand is not as consistent. Also Wong Chun Ting didn’t learn TPB either (I could be wrong.) but there is a 7 year gap between WH and WCT and 6 between WH and XX.

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suds79 · Nov 21, 2017

mky said:
 This question has been on my mind for a while and since Xu Xin just won Swedish open so I thought it might be a good time to bring it up. Was Wang Hao ahead of his time in terms of adapting RPB? From what I can understand he didn’t learn or train TPB at all. He trained exclusively with RPB like a SH player but with a different grip, which is what China is doing now? Xu Xin played with TPB early in his career but since has changed to RPB to attack, TPB to lob and block, but his backhand is not as consistent. Also Wong Chun Ting didn’t learn TPB either (I could be wrong.) but there is a 7 year gap between WH and WCT and 6 between WH and XX.

WH would sometimes train with TPB. But yes rarely would pull it out.

I think TPB still has its moments. Say caught in a crossover between FH & BH. Easy to use TPB here. I also happen to think the side-swipe chop motion Ma lin use to do is easier with TPB vs RPB. But I've seen Xu Xin do it also with RPB.

But at the top level where it largely ends up in open play loop top loop, I'm sure the vast majority of penholders in China now are exclusively using the RPB and playing a more balanced/shakehand type of game. See Wang Hao. See Xue Fei, etc.

OldschoolPenholder · Nov 22, 2017

suds79 said:
Youtube video mirroring
...

http://amacfie.github.io/MirrorYouTubeVideos/

Whoa! Very cool, thank you suds!

SFF_lib · Nov 25, 2017

https://youtu.be/WGcR7du-79g

What a great match. Xue Fei's BH reflex is probably equal to if not better than the prime time Wang Hao. Very close to table. Very powerful stroke.

Yet I see his FH is not equally powerful during a rally. Is it a common problem for those with strong RPB?

Passionate about TT

suds79 · Nov 29, 2017

SFF_lib said:
https://youtu.be/WGcR7du-79g

What a great match. Xue Fei's BH reflex is probably equal to if not better than the prime time Wang Hao. Very close to table. Very powerful stroke.

Yet I see his FH is not equally powerful during a rally. Is it a common problem for those with strong RPB?

Passionate about TT

I don't think so. I mean Wang Hao, the gold standard of RPB, had a very good FH. Maybe it's just something with Xue Fei in that his FH is only as powerful as it'll be. Could just be a him thing. Kinda like how a weak BH is a Xu Xin thing.

But I agree with you. Xue Fei's BH I think is very close to Wang Haos if not just as good.

suds79 · Nov 29, 2017

So there are some good matches uploaded recently of Cazuo Matusmoto a Brazilian left Jpener who I like to watch considering I favor the TPB over the RPB.

Perhaps he has always done this but I noticed he has used a TPB flick a fair amount. This is some high level stuff. If anybody regularly uses this shot, please expand on this thought.

But it looks here he gets I'm guessing pure sidespin. The spin will be curving into his rubber (ie - biting harder) and with a flat face, he seemingly hits through it maybe coming slightly over the top on his follow through.

If you watch his matches, he uses this return a lot.

suds79 · Nov 29, 2017

And lastly here he is in the same match taking a similar receive but this time spinning the TPB the other direction.

Flicking & spinning the other way (with this spin this time) down the line. This motion is different and not as snappy or fast but it's a change up that keeps em guessing.

And lastly, here's another look at both types of this flick back to back

I made a post on my blog on this backhand technique after finding a video of him explaining it.

https://penholdpips.blogspot.com/

OldschoolPenholder · Nov 29, 2017

suds79 said:
So there are some good matches uploaded recently of Cazuo Matusmoto a Brazilian left Jpener who I like to watch considering I favor the TPB over the RPB.

Perhaps he has always done this but I noticed he has used a TPB flick a fair amount. This is some high level stuff. If anybody regularly uses this shot, please expand on this thought.

But it looks here he gets I'm guessing pure sidespin. The spin will be curving into his rubber (ie - biting harder) and with a flat face, he seemingly hits through it maybe coming slightly over the top on his follow through.

If you watch his matches, he uses this return a lot.

WOW! Sweet shot!!

Thank you for the share suds!

And no, i cannot do this on what is seemingly side-down.

SFF_lib · Nov 29, 2017

suds79 said:
I don't think so. I mean Wang Hao, the gold standard of RPB, had a very good FH. Maybe it's just something with Xue Fei in that his FH is only as powerful as it'll be. Could just be a him thing. Kinda like how a weak BH is a Xu Xin thing.

But I agree with you. Xue Fei's BH I think is very close to Wang Haos if not just as good.

https://youtu.be/Jz52lNVQ0tc

Xue Fei won the final match. I was wrong. Xue Fei launched more FH loop against his Japanese opponent. His FH seems very strong. But the body rotation is not as powerful as Xu Xin which explains less powerful loop.

It's so fun to watch Xue Fei's BH. Feels like Wang Hao again.

But I am so so glad to see two penholders who represent the Chinese junior team. Hopefully they will ruse to the top when they hit their mid 20s. Even better, we might see two penholders in the Olympic final one day!!!

Passionate about TT

ahmadrahimi2020 · Nov 30, 2017

Despite that there are disadvantages of being a Penhold, there are more positive points from it. And in playing table tennis, we all need to diversify.

Lermanator · Nov 30, 2017

I started out as a penholder but then my coach made me switch after the first lesson. I've always really enjoyed watching modern penholders cause of their long strokes, heavy spin and amazing footwork. It would suck if in 15 years there were no world-class penholders

confiscate · Nov 30, 2017

Lermanator said:
I started out as a penholder but then my coach made me switch after the first lesson.

Ya an old "coach" at my club said the same thing. "You HAVE to switch to shakehand. End of story".
I watched him play and he sucks ball. It's not just that he is old and can't move fast, it's his strokes, are completely wrong. Like his backhand shakehand serves, is not affected by age because it's just a serve, but his motion is different from any TT player--he draws a straight line, while everyone draws a big circle. It's like 100% different and obvious to anyone watching him serve, even to folks that don't play TT.

Still, because he has a lot of multiball equipment, a lot of newbies pay him $60/hr to "learn".

When I point out it would be great advertising for him to have a student do well with penhold and win at tournaments, he said "well requires the student have talent".
Right. So to summarize, if you take lessons from him, you HAVE to switch to shakehand, pay him $60/hr, and if you don't improve after paying him for lots of lessons that is because you lack talent. LOL sounds bullshit to me. All the burden and risk of switching is on you, the $ cost is on you, but if after switching things don't go well he has 0 accountability. "Your game got worse after you switch to shakehand? Good luck that's your problem. Maybe you don't have talent. I still keep the $ though. LOL"

Don't switch. If your coach is good, he/she will teach you based on your style. If you are long pips, short pips, chopper--a knowledgeable coach understands how they work, and you will see improvement. A crappy coach tells you to switch to shakehand inverted both sides, because if you don't, they don't have enough depth to be able to "teach" you anything--they will just end up standing there the whole hour not saying anything, and looking dumb.

SFF_lib · Nov 30, 2017

confiscate said:
Ya an old "coach" at my club said the same thing. "You HAVE to switch to shakehand. End of story".
I watched him play and he sucks ball. It's not just that he is old and can't move fast, it's his strokes, like his serves, are completely wrong.
Still, because he has a lot of multiball equipment, a lot of newbies pay him $60 to "learn".

Don't switch. If your coach is good, he/she will teach you based on your style. If you are long pips, short pips--a knowledgeable coach understands how they work. A crappy coach tells you to switch because if you don't, they don't have enough depth to be able to "teach" you anything.

Very well said

Passionate about TT

suds79 · Nov 30, 2017

confiscate said:
Right. So to summarize, if you take lessons from him, you HAVE to switch to shakehand, pay him $60/hr, and if you don't improve after paying him for lots of lessons that is because you lack talent. LOL sounds bullshit to me. All the burden and risk of switching is on you, the $ cost is on you, but if after switching things don't go well he has 0 accountability. "Your game got worse after you switch to shakehand? Good luck that's your problem. Maybe you don't have talent. I still keep the $ though. LOL"

Yeah it's sad there's a coach, and I'm sure there are many, who make people switch.

I think sometimes they forget it's a game and people should be able to do what they want to do.

Speaking of coaching, I don't think a coach who doesn't play penhold should be coaching someone to play penhold anyways. There's value in knowing the differences. Sure they could coach on fundamentals and such. But the fine details. How would they know?

How would a shakehand coach know about to execute a pendulum serve with penhold. A TPB. A RPB. The Xu Xin FH over the table wristy flip shot. The forehand fade (which is as far as I'm concerned next to impossible with penhold bending the wrist wise), etc.

That's the other challenge in all this. Not only do you have to find a coach, but you have to (or IMO should) find one who plays/played penhold.

suds79 · Nov 30, 2017

So on the topic of developing a more agressive TPB from my post above inspired by Cazuo's TPB.

I got on the robot last night and had pretty good success with it. Here's my thoughts.

It's more powerful, but not engrained in my muscle memory yet. So if someone blasts a shot at me and I just want to TPB block or punch? Sure that works. But if I have a little more time and the ball is sitting up or coming in at normal speed? This snappy TPB isn't a bad idea.

For me it was like I as almost snapping sideways. I found a couple of videos done by Tacshow (love this channel) where he's domstrating the exact same technique but how he's doing it is more pronounced & easier to see for you to try at home. Cazuo's is shorter & more subtle. Harder to see.

based on this and once you get use to this motion, I put some time on robot backspin short over the table and I found the transition to this shot pretty easy. This was exactly what I was working last night. Surprisingly, I found the upward motion or pull to be pretty easy. Just stick out that elbow and come up on the ball. The stroke here is related to the one above IMO.

Last but not least. Because this is done with the TPB and you're snapping the blade more violently, get ready for your index finger to get tired. There were times were I thought "I hope I don't fling my racket right out of my hand". But I didn't.

I have a suspicion that a jpen with that cork handle might come in handy with something to hold onto which leads me back to.....

hmm.... The sexest blade alive. Someday.

confiscate · Nov 30, 2017

suds79 said:
Not only do you have to find a coach, but you have to (or IMO should) find one who plays/played penhold.

There is a penhold player at my club (Swan TT in sunnyvale, CA), Tao Wenzhang, who also coaches. He's the real deal (2700), and regularly wins opens. There are 3 other shakehand 2700 coaches as well at the same club. I am sure none of them would tell you to switch from penhold to shakehand--that's just stupid.

Here is a video of Tao Wenzhang playing in the ITTF China Open against Zhang Jike when ZJK was still prime condition:

He didn't win ZJK but got 2 sets out of it for a 4-2 loss. For the "coach" that goes around telling folks to switch from penhold to shakehand, maybe ask/verify how good that "coach" is first?

Let's just say, real-deal coaches like Tao Wenzhang, or other 2500+ coaches, would never tell you to switch from penhold to shakehand. It's always the loser "coaches" that cannot play, going around preying on folks who sincerely want to improve TT, that tell you things like switching to make themselves sound superior, to sound like "they know best". The truth is, if they tell you with a straight face "you HAVE to switch to shakehand", like they are 100% sure, then they probably don't know anything. They are just making stuff up as they go, with a straight face. TT is a complex game, and nobody knows 100% on anything, not even China national team coaches.

If you watch video interviews of china national team coaches like LGL, they are always, constantly, talking about "innovation", they are desperate to try new things, explore new game-changing techniques (like RPB and backhand loop over table 5 years ago, before it became common). Especially when ITTF introduce rule changes, like the recently 40+ balls, you will see lots of CCTV interviews of coaches constantly talk about looking for new technique innovations. They want to find new ways to win, before other countries figure it out, so they can stay on #1 spot. None of them will tell you that they are 100% sure you should switch to anything, because who knows what each kind of playing style can lead to? No one knows 100% sure. No one.

Don't buy into the bullshit. A lot of old folks out there who hang out at clubs looking to prey on un-suspecting folks who sincerely want to improve.

Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

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