Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

James Livesey · Feb 3, 2018

songdavid98 said:
The camera angles aren't very good, so it's hard to judge. I'd recommend a front view that's not too high

Your RPB looks like a Wong Chun Ting style RPB, which I use to do (I'm currently trying to raise my elbow as an experiment). I can't really see what your are doing though, but I can see that you can hit the ball with some force, so that's great.

As for your forehand, it seems that your body (especially your head) goes from left to right a lot (a little too much).

Also, it seems like you don't get to use your forearm very much. NextLevel has a good few words about forearm snap, which you probably should look for. It's pretty necessary for putting more spin on the ball.

If you are just starting out, not bad. If you've been playing like this for a while, I think you should stop locking your elbow in place. Restricting your elbow is good for learning, since it stops some bad technique from happening, but in the long run, once you kind of know what you are doing, restricting your own movement isn't too great.

I'd say the most important thing I can say is start lower and on FH keep the elbow low. All of your strokes are more drive than topspin. Driving is important, but topspin will give you more consistency and confidence. If you watch Ma Lin and Xu Xin, they start their fh behind their thigh, and with a rigid arm swing up with the shoulder and round, particularly with the legs. I don't think that as a PH'er the forearm snap is necessary, but it certainly is easier to learn and will give good results: this subject has become known as the Euro vs Chinese FH technique debate as I understand it, and as a PH'er I think the chinese style is far far more effective and the best weapon a PH'er can have. On rpb, it's easy to track the ball with the playing hand and drive through the ball but to get good topspin stick the elbow out in front and start the stroke with your playing hand nearer the waist. Wang Hao is by far the best for studying.

songdavid98 · Feb 10, 2018

Can any of you guys help me find a video of Xu Xin and Wang Hao practicing. I remember that in the video, they did backhand to backhand. It also had Ma Long on another table doing forehands (and he did a dramatic motion when he missed one)

hillwalker · Mar 23, 2018

Hi all, Another left-handed penholder here. I'm a new player, I have been playing seriously for a bit over a year.

I tried both grips, and found that playing shakehand I was often stiff and gripping tightly and clubbing the ball, but the penhold grip rewarded a relaxed body and soft touch, and I really liked that feeling. Fortunately the RBP is very natural for me as well, I've played it from the start, and I've been complemented on my backhand by good players at my new club. Unfortunately my forehand is bit of a mess, and I need a lot of work to loop consistently.

I have a good pendulum serve that I can vary side-top and side-bottom spin, and have a lot of fun trying to control my opponents with it. I experimented with a reverse penhold forehand serve recently (you go to do a normal serve, and then twist your wrist up, and flick the ball in the opposite direction with the underside of the bat) and it actually worked pretty well. I'm going to try to develop it as a fast serve variation.

SFF_lib · Mar 23, 2018

hillwalker said:
Hi all, Another left-handed penholder here. I'm a new player, I have been playing seriously for a bit over a year.

I tried both grips, and found that playing shakehand I was often stiff and gripping tightly and clubbing the ball, but the penhold grip rewarded a relaxed body and soft touch, and I really liked that feeling. Fortunately the RBP is very natural for me as well, I've played it from the start, and I've been complemented on my backhand by good players at my new club. Unfortunately my forehand is bit of a mess, and I need a lot of work to loop consistently.

I have a good pendulum serve that I can vary side-top and side-bottom spin, and have a lot of fun trying to control my opponents with it. I experimented with a reverse penhold forehand serve recently (you go to do a normal serve, and then twist your wrist up, and flick the ball in the opposite direction with the underside of the bat) and it actually worked pretty well. I'm going to try to develop it as a fast serve variation.

RPB FH serve. Liu Guoliang used that. I have tried practices it but i am getting no where. Would be nice to see a video recording of yours.

Passionate about TT

violoniste18 · Mar 23, 2018

I mean it's great to play penhold grip as a left-handed player because you can better hide movements of services.

Unfortunately, I'm right-handed player ... ( penhold 1 side with short pips )

hillwalker · Mar 23, 2018

SFF_lib said:
RPB FH serve. Liu Guoliang used that. I have tried practices it but i am getting no where. Would be nice to see a video recording of yours.

Passionate about TT

I tried to record some. Still working on it. I'm finding if I try to flick or brush hard, there's no control at all, and the serve is wild. However, there's so much tension in your wrist, if you just hold your arm and wrist steady and just use your body rotation, it's still fast.

https://youtu.be/QLnrqYu_bpQ

violoniste18 · Mar 23, 2018

I just saw Suds79 you play with Long pips ? by switching or playing it on RPB ?

a question too, I play 1 side short pips for a short time but I really like it, far more than backside.

I'am playing with the famous 802-40 Friendship, it's nice but I wonder about booster on it to accelerate my forefand.

Have you ever tried it ?

suds79 · Mar 23, 2018

violoniste18 said:
I just saw Suds79 you play with Long pips ? by switching or playing it on RPB ?

a question too, I play 1 side short pips for a short time but I really like it, far more than backside.

I'am playing with the famous 802-40 Friendship, it's nice but I wonder about booster on it to accelerate my forefand.

Have you ever tried it ?

Hi violoniste,

I currently play inverted FH, LPs on the RPB side. Use to twiddle a lot between them but now twiddling less & less. More on that in another post.

So yeah I played years of short pips, mainly 802-40 on that stock 35 deg sponge, for years on my Stiga clipper.

802-40 is my favorite topsheet I've tried and overall is my favorite SP. But yeah that sponge is just okay for me. I've tried 802-40 on some custom sponges with varying results. Anyways, if you're looking for more speed, you certainly could trying boosting it. if you have some boost laying around, slap it on and see what you think. If not, I have a solution for you.

So I once tried TSP Spectol RED. Not the old classic Spectol. They have a somewhat (maybe a year or 2?) old version called Red. And there's a Blue that's apparently a pinch harder (ie - faster).

Holy smokes that was one crazy speed deamon. It comes pre-tuned FYI. But I couldn't control it. Just way too fast. Turns out, I loved the sponge & speed. It was amazing. What I didn't like was that topsheet of Spectol. That is as a classic/non-grippy, SP as I have ever seen. Even compared to regular 802. The pips are pretty small. Shoot ttnpp.com, where I buy this stuff even has Spectol classified as a medium pips... So why am I talking about this?

I never tried it (and I play inverted now) but I'm convinced that TSP Spinpips RED (or blue if that suits your fancy. But i'd go Red) is exactly what your'e looking for. Just look at any images of spinpips topsheet. They're conical, fat, textured, just like 802-40. Just on one blazing fast tuned sponge.

Ultimately I didn't like the lack of spin spectol gave me to hit hard where as I think the 802-40 topsheet or Spinpips topsheet would.

I suggest you try that and report back what you think. Here's the link. I'd go 2.0-2.1 thickness.

http://ttnpp.com/store/rubber/888-tsp-spinpips-red-94.html

Side note: So are you a short pips, one rubber side only guy? Nothing on the back? I kinda have this opinion that if you play with CPen and are a one side hitter, that's fine. But at least throw something on the other side for an added weapon for the rare, rare, confusing hit. A LP. An anti, or inverted if you have a nice RPB. Just my 2 cents.

violoniste18 · Mar 23, 2018

great answer ! thanks ...

I started penhold 3-4 years ago and tried a lot of combinations : 2 sides backside, rpb anti, rpb LP, twiddling, etc ...

But my favourite style is 1 side. Perhaps because my hand prefer a light bat, according tio the fact that a violin bow is very light

So I played 1 side with backside for a few month, but i were not really happy about.

And 1 week ago, I tried short pips. Right away i loved it, for all my strokes : better services, Traditional backhand and forehand too.

In french on say "c'est le jour et la nuit" to says it is far better

perhaps "difference is like night and day" ?

I am going to first apply booster and then if ok for me buy TSP red !

OldschoolPenholder · Mar 23, 2018

Welcome to TTD and to this thread hillwalker!!

hillwalker said:
Hi all, Another left-handed penholder here. I'm a new player, I have been playing seriously for a bit over a year.

I tried both grips, and found that playing shakehand I was often stiff and gripping tightly and clubbing the ball, but the penhold grip rewarded a relaxed body and soft touch, and I really liked that feeling. Fortunately the RBP is very natural for me as well, I've played it from the start, and I've been complemented on my backhand by good players at my new club. Unfortunately my forehand is bit of a mess, and I need a lot of work to loop consistently.

I have a good pendulum serve that I can vary side-top and side-bottom spin, and have a lot of fun trying to control my opponents with it. I experimented with a reverse penhold forehand serve recently (you go to do a normal serve, and then twist your wrist up, and flick the ball in the opposite direction with the underside of the bat) and it actually worked pretty well. I'm going to try to develop it as a fast serve variation.

I have watched your video and never thought of that serve! I will have to try it out. I have not practiced too much the rocket serve off of the RPB ... but can do it ok from my BH side. Thank you for the idea!

hillwalker said:
I tried to record some. Still working on it. I'm finding if I try to flick or brush hard, there's no control at all, and the serve is wild. However, there's so much tension in your wrist, if you just hold your arm and wrist steady and just use your body rotation, it's still fast.

https://youtu.be/QLnrqYu_bpQ

~osph

suds79 · Mar 23, 2018

hillwalker said:
I have a good pendulum serve that I can vary side-top and side-bottom spin, and have a lot of fun trying to control my opponents with it. I experimented with a reverse penhold forehand serve recently (you go to do a normal serve, and then twist your wrist up, and flick the ball in the opposite direction with the underside of the bat) and it actually worked pretty well. I'm going to try to develop it as a fast serve variation.

Penholder and fellow lefty? Welcome my Xu Xin little brother.

Yeah the reverse penhold FH serve is tricky for me. I alternate between that and trying a standard reverse pendulum serve but I think among penholders, the reverse penhold FH serve is more common. Maybe because you can hide most of the paddle behind your back. Not sure.

Watch some video of penholders

Wang Zeng Yi (popular SP FH / Inverted RPB) who uses this serve a lot.

And Tao Wenzhang. The best penholder in the USA and probably top 5 overall in the US? Maybe higher? Point is, he's good. He also uses that serve a fair amount.

Welcome.

OldschoolPenholder · Mar 23, 2018

following suds mention of him:

following suds mention of him:
Following suds' mentions, here are some clips:

2 Wang Zeng Yi clips

Here's one of Tao Wenzhang

suds79 · Mar 23, 2018

Last Sunday I found myself frustrated in a match I was playing where I had a number of balls hit to my BH and I instinctively hit them with TPB instead of RPB. I was playing duel inverted at the time.

It seems as much as I try, I cannot un-program the natural TPB position when a ball is quickly hit to my BH side. No matter how hard I try, just can't do it. This indecision or "dang it" moments hurts me and my game. While I can hit a powerful RPB with inverted, with my style and where I play in singles (in my far back corner) and being left handed, it just rarely happens.

So I decided to just accept my style for what it is and quit trying to force myself to be Wang Hao when I'm just not. Sunday night pulled the inverted off the BH and put on an OX sheet of LPs on there with the plan of "No twiddling". I want to keep my aggressive nature of largely anything hit to my FH side, I have inverted on there locked & loaded and I loop which feels good. I've found when you twiddle and say give them backspin. It's just too tempting to take the easy shot and twiddle and LP bump it. Which is a nice shot but nowhere near the scary or point winner as a powerful FH loop with inverted is.

So far have hit twice against quality players and I must say, I do like how easy this style makes the game. Previously I hated this setup as a lefty. Picture righty serving form their backhand corner (which is normal). I, as a lefty, am standing down the line. Well what if they Hezhiwen me and serve pendulum wide to my FH curving away from me? I'm a good two steps away from being in position. And when you reach? You miss. So natural solution is to play slightly more middle of the table prior to the serve in case they try that. Problem is that opens up the down the line serve right? Well for me, I just didn't feel comfortable RPB attacking or blocking or playing whatever shot with inverted vs that serve. It's just not in my game.

But now! Now with Inverted on my FH and LPs on my RPB side, I have options. I even have the freedom to stand completely in the middle of the table. No problem. I'm ready for any serve. Anything off the table to my left? FH loop. Down the middle? step around. FH Loop. Down the light to my right? LP chop block or chop if it's off the table. or LP bump attack if it's backspin. Shoot I even caught my opponent trying to serve short down the line on me. I read it was little to no spin. No problem. reached over with the TPB inverted, which feels natural for me, and angle block really wide to his FH a winner. Not as fast as a ripped RPB but plenty fast enough to get the job done. In short, vs those down the line serves to my BH I can now either play TPB inverted shot. or RPB LP shot. Each of which will give the opponent a lot to think about or expect in return.

All in all I'm digging it I'm happy to report. I could play a whole match with one side, like those oldschool single-wing penholders if i wanted to. Or I can even adapt on some points to play a more modern defender, off the table and RPB chop and FH loop style.

OldschoolPenholder · Mar 23, 2018

Brother,

Just when I am embracing the RPB, you go back to TPB on me, albeit with LP OX LOLOL

Congratulations on finding 'yourself'!!!

suds79 said:
Last Sunday I found myself frustrated in a match I was playing where I had a number of balls hit to my BH and I instinctively hit them with TPB instead of RPB. I was playing duel inverted at the time.

It seems as much as I try, I cannot un-program the natural TPB position when a ball is quickly hit to my BH side. No matter how hard I try, just can't do it. This indecision or "dang it" moments hurts me and my game. While I can hit a powerful RPB with inverted, with my style and where I play in singles (in my far back corner) and being left handed, it just rarely happens.

So I decided to just accept my style for what it is and quit trying to force myself to be Wang Hao when I'm just not. Sunday night pulled the inverted off the BH and put on an OX sheet of LPs on there with the plan of "No twiddling". I want to keep my aggressive nature of largely anything hit to my FH side, I have inverted on there locked & loaded and I loop which feels good. I've found when you twiddle and say give them backspin. It's just too tempting to take the easy shot and twiddle and LP bump it. Which is a nice shot but nowhere near the scary or point winner as a powerful FH loop with inverted is.

So far have hit twice against quality players and I must say, I do like how easy this style makes the game. Previously I hated this setup as a lefty. Picture righty serving form their backhand corner (which is normal). I, as a lefty, am standing down the line. Well what if they Hezhiwen me and serve pendulum wide to my FH curving away from me? I'm a good two steps away from being in position. And when you reach? You miss. So natural solution is to play slightly more middle of the table prior to the serve in case they try that. Problem is that opens up the down the line serve right? Well for me, I just didn't feel comfortable RPB attacking or blocking or playing whatever shot with inverted vs that serve. It's just not in my game.

But now! Now with Inverted on my FH and LPs on my RPB side, I have options. I even have the freedom to stand completely in the middle of the table. No problem. I'm ready for any serve. Anything off the table to my left? FH loop. Down the middle? step around. FH Loop. Down the light to my right? LP chop block or chop if it's off the table. or LP bump attack if it's backspin. Shoot I even caught my opponent trying to serve short down the line on me. I read it was little to no spin. No problem. reached over with the TPB inverted, which feels natural for me, and angle block really wide to his FH a winner. Not as fast as a ripped RPB but plenty fast enough to get the job done. In short, vs those down the line serves to my BH I can now either play TPB inverted shot. or RPB LP shot. Each of which will give the opponent a lot to think about or expect in return.

All in all I'm digging it I'm happy to report. I could play a whole match with one side, like those oldschool single-wing penholders if i wanted to. Or I can even adapt on some points to play a more modern defender, off the table and RPB chop and FH loop style.

OldschoolPenholder · Apr 3, 2018

A few weeks ago, i was just messing around in a semi-serious practice as it was getting late with a friend who (whom?) is also learning RPB. Although the balls were slightly high and no spin, with my TPB grip, I was able to RPB smash/flat hit with 50% to 100% power/speed. My flat hits were similar to SH BH flat hits.

Last week, a friend who is a coach, hit with me for 30 mins. We actively worked on my RPB about 2 buckets of multiballs. I may have to seriously give up my TPB curled grip and use Wang Hao's extended grip to have a decent RPB. I have not been consistent with my RPB with my TPB grip, but with the Wang Hao grip i was way more consistent. He was serving light downspin to me.

Last week I played 4x instead of my normal 3x. About 3 wks ago, i changed from the light American Hinoki WRC-9mm blade to a Butterfly Taksim carbon blade. I am kind of used to the weight. 2 yrs ago I tried to use 2 inverted on a wood blade and found it too heavy and had wrist pain.

However, past 2 days i've noticed some discomfort/mild pain in my fingers. I don't think i grip too hard with the extended fingers grip, so i'm thinking the weight is affecting my fingers somehow instead of my wrist?

------------------

Watching/rewatching Wang Hao's instructionals - is it me or does he change his extended fingers grip to the curled fingers grip when he shows the RPB and the FH? I'm not used to the extended grip on serves and FH flat hit/loops. In time I may get used to extended grip on FH but just curious if fellow PH brothers change grips or stick to one grip?

~osph

suds79 · Apr 3, 2018

OldschoolPenholder said:
I may have to seriously give up my TPB curled grip and use Wang Hao's extended grip to have a decent RPB. I have not been consistent with my RPB with my TPB grip, but with the Wang Hao grip i was way more consistent. He was serving light downspin to me.

~osph

That's really interesting.

I have a youtube video on the penhold grip where I advocate at the time for a curled fingers approach and the TPB. I wish I could go back and edit videos because for some time now, years actually, I've since back to the normal traditional fingers almost extended on the back of the paddle I briefly mention in the video. I now only like the curled fingers approach if you twiddle. If you don't, so many reasons I think for the more traditional grip.

- More power on the FH
- For me at least better ability to rip through the ball with my fingers on the backside on pendulum service compared to curled.
- IMO better feel. Instead of your knuckles touching the blade, Your finger tips are and I think the feeling is much greater there.

I don't notice much of a difference on the RPB side... Other than the ball is more likely to hit my finger.

Oh well. just have to keep working with it.

As far as his video, I don't know if he's curling his fingers fully. They might be a little more curled that what I do but I have noticed in the past how much more of the RPB face of his he has to hit with with. I'd say 10% surface area than I do.... I just assumed he had small hands or short fingers.

In fact, I'll stand by that. Check your first video 2:52. That's somewhat straight. He fingers simply don't reach that far into the face of the rubber which might be a blessing in his case.

OldschoolPenholder · Apr 3, 2018

suds79 said:
That's really interesting.

I have a youtube video on the penhold grip where I advocate at the time for a curled fingers approach and the TPB. I wish I could go back and edit videos because for some time now, years actually, I've since back to the normal traditional fingers almost extended on the back of the paddle I briefly mention in the video. I now only like the curled fingers approach if you twiddle. If you don't, so many reasons I think for the more traditional grip.

- More power on the FH
- For me at least better ability to rip through the ball with my fingers on the backside on pendulum service compared to curled.
- IMO better feel. Instead of your knuckles touching the blade, Your finger tips are and I think the feeling is much greater there.

I don't notice much of a difference on the RPB side... Other than the ball is more likely to hit my finger. Oh well. just have to keep working with it.

As far as his video, I don't know if he's curling his fingers fully. They might be a little more curled that what I do but I have noticed in the past how much more of the RPB face of his he has to hit with with. I'd say 10% surface area than I do.... I just assumed he had small hands or short fingers.

As I'm still learning the RPB i still misjudge the ball at times and no matter which grip i have, it hits my fingers LOL

Agree WH's fingers are not curled fully but then again it's not extended like he has on his RPB.

Interesting point you have on the extended grip and pendulum serves... i cannot serve well (yet) with extended fingers on pendulum... although i think i see WH serving the punch serve more (i think it's called a punch serve) than the pendulum.

suds79 · Apr 3, 2018

Want to see how you guys deal with BH fishing and/or chopping.

Note video: Yes I know this is shakehand but I'm talking about these type of shots as point of reference for anybody wondering. I'm talking about playing these type of shots with penhold.

So the other night at club, my goodness did I play like dog sh!#. I mean anybody could have beat me that night and pretty much did.

So at the end of the night in my YOLO moment, I was hitting with a buddy and hitting shakehand for old times sake. Why not. Nothing else was working. This thread isn't about me thinking of going back. No way there. But man is BH fishing and/or BH chopping or soft playing a ball when it's maybe low % to full on BH loop super easy with shakehand. I mean really easy.

While I love penhold and that's why I'll always play it, I can't help but feel my feeling is better with shakehand sometimes because of all the feeling receptors in your hand.

Anyways, my question. How do you guys, or do you practice feeling on your BH. If you're off the table, would you fish with TPB? Would you fish with RPB? If you fish or chop or swipe off the table with TPB, are you able to just turn it on your brain to know if you're going to attack a ball you RPB loop that? So you do both? Seems as though that's how Xu Xin plays it. But could be because relative to pros, he has a weak BH. IDK. Maybe Xue Fei would do it different? I've never really seen him fish on the BH though. He just monster RPB loops everything so good.

Truly amazing RPB.

I need to develop better feel in my RPB game. Probably will start with some simple bouncing the ball a million times on my RPB like kids do when first learning the game and/or might try some off the table lobbing with it every now & then to try to develop that feel.

I don't want to, nor think I can, be the type to always loop or RPB any ball that's off the table to my BH. Not good enough for that.

suds79 · Apr 3, 2018

OldschoolPenholder said:
Interesting point you have on the extended grip and pendulum serves... i cannot serve well (yet) with extended fingers on pendulum... although i think i see WH serving the punch serve more (i think it's called a punch serve) than the pendulum.

Yeah I don't know. It's like somehow with the fingers extended on that back rubber, I feel like i have greater grip. So I can more agressively rip through the ball on say an underspin serve. IDK.

I've given up won Wang Hao's serve somewhat. You're right it is the punch serve. I know he gets his spin from the waist and the turn. And I do like the concept of keeping the paddle, shoot even the majority of the paddle, behind your body during contact. They just have to see the contact. They don't have to see the rest of the paddle.

So on Wang Hao's punch serve: My 2 cents.
On a blade face perpendicular to the floor punch motion, you get get a lot of side/top going to them. When I angle the paddle 45 degrees, honestly it's kinda dead to me. You don't get that crazy top and nor crazy backspin because it's 45 degrees and the motion for me is turning like Wang Hao. Not slicing under the ball. I'd have to flatter out my paddle a lot more for that. However, the 45 degree thing for me is good sometimes because if after you contact the ball you flatten out your paddle to be parallel to the floor in a fake after motion, you can often get people to push that ball which is a mistake. But I can never get the ton of backspin on Wang Hao's serve. Instead. I have to do his starting position and during my rotation to contact the ball, I angle my paddle to come side/under it like a normal pendulum serve. Shoot you can even go pendulum side/top the other way if you like. But as far as his punch serve with reverse pendulum backspin? Nah I don't have that serve in my bag. Think i'd need to contact the ball on the reverse side of the rubber (we discussed this earlier in posts above with videos) to get my angle right to really pull that serve off.

OldschoolPenholder · Apr 3, 2018

suds79 said:
Want to see how you guys deal with BH fishing and/or chopping.

...

Anyways, my question. How do you guys, or do you practice feeling on your BH. If you're off the table, would you fish with TPB? Would you fish with RPB? If you fish or chop or swipe off the table with TPB, are you able to just turn it on your brain to know if you're going to attack a ball you RPB loop that? So you do both? Seems as though that's how Xu Xin plays it. But could be because relative to pros, he has a weak BH. IDK. Maybe Xue Fei would do it different? I've never really seen him fish on the BH though. He just monster RPB loops everything so good. Truly amazing RPB.

I need to develop better feel in my RPB game. Probably will start with some simple bouncing the ball a million times on my RPB like kids do when first learning the game and/or might try some off the table lobbing with it every now & then to try to develop that feel.

I don't want to, nor think I can, be the type to always loop or RPB any ball that's off the table to my BH. Not good enough for that.

Good question suds!

I generally don't lob/fish - i am mostly a half step to a step and a half off the table. I have practiced FH fishing from time to time, only with partners that i want to help their flat hit/smash. I am somewhat comfortable with FH fishing but am not good at it.

I have not tried TPB fishing much. If i am out of position I may end up chopping as it affords me a little extra reach than TPB.

As for RPB feel, i have a double whammy working against me... getting used to tensor rubbers as well as getting used to RPB. For now, I try to actively use RPB for 'feel'. I will try your bouncing a ball tip tonight. Thank you!

I know i will not be able to always loop and/or smash, but i will still keep playing close-to-the-table and not actively try RPB chopping or fishing ... although a friend plays actively to chop and fish as a PH, he has a better/steadier FH loop than me, he is slowly working his RPB loop, but feels he is not getting it. He prefers to fish/chop as a PH for whatever reason LOL

Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

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