USA Table Tennis

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Another good thing is more clubs that can produce players like Kanak Jha.

US in my opinion has no problem developing world juniors
there is plenty of full time clubs/centres, plenty of high level coaches/practice partners.
But will Kanak Jha commit to TT full time after university?

Where is Ariel today, where is Erica?
Is Timothy playing full time?
What will Lily do after school?
Where are the former Team USA players (who are still under 30 years old)

So I think that is the problem.
School > Table Tennis
Career > Table Tennis
Maybe in England, your high level players can make TT a career.
Maybe your top USA players can do that, but they can't be living in the USA then
 
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I use to think it would take some American advancing far in to the Olympics is what it would take. The key would be to just get it on TV more.

Because that's not very realistic at this point right now, I think the addition of more TT academies could only help. Get more kids playing.

There was top 8/QF US olympians...
But so what if someone wins a medal, would that automatically make a Career out of TT in USA?
Maybe for 1 player, but not for the other 10 mens, 10 womens, 10 junior boys/girls etc
Olympic may get the NOC to provide more funding, but Gov funding is not what makes sports a career.

Having it on TV more - why should they, there is not good viewship.

Top down approach won't work.
Start from the foundation stage. Build a school frame work, get the kids to start with TT (brainwash them from a young age that TT is the way to go)

Each US forum member here should help start TT at a school.
I help started TT in 5 schools in Cape Town, its not difficult
 
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England has a national league system in place and strong regional leagues. USA doesn't really have that. Also as mentioned above England is in Europe so once the players reach the top of the British League they can try and find clubs and work their way up through league systems in Germany, France, Portugal, Poland etc.

Remember Liam Pitchford was around 250-300 world ranking (similar to Kanak now) when he moved to Germany to begin playing in the league there and his game just went from strength to strength.

US players need constant exposure to high level play and high level matches and at the moment aside from semi-regular tournaments most players don't get that.
 
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Yes , the good thing is he moved as a Junior , I think Khoa Nguyen also did that in 90s but probably he was already a matured player by then ...
One good thing is that our best junior player and current US Champ, Kanak Jha, moved to Sweden and has trained and played there for quite a while now. A huge part of the problem the US has is producing the kind of competitive environment that builds the top players. England is next to those countries (Germany etc.)
 
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Yes , the good thing is he moved as a Junior , I think Khoa Nguyen also did that in 90s but probably he was already a matured player by then ...

There has been quite a few juniors from USA, both boys and girls playing in your "top destination" countries.
Happening today and the past decade.
Would Kanak choose TT full time or not....

I like to see someone a bit knowledgeable of TT in the USA to comment on this. Is it even close to viable for a player to play full time based in the USA.

Now I am talking about TT as an income for the rest of your life....
Maybe play Pro in Europe and retire in USA and start coaching?
 
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There has been quite a few juniors from USA, both boys and girls playing in your "top destination" countries.
Happening today and the past decade.
Would Kanak choose TT full time or not....

I like to see someone a bit knowledgeable of TT in the USA to comment on this. Is it even close to viable for a player to play full time based in the USA.

Now I am talking about TT as an income for the rest of your life....
Maybe play Pro in Europe and retire in USA and start coaching?

I am fairly knowledgeable as I am friends (in a few cases close friends) with a handful of the top US players over the last 20 years or so (the ones who live or lived in Houston). That list would include three former US champions, along with three other former USA national team members. I am also old enough to see how things have worked here for a long time.

The answer is TT is not very viable for American players. Among this group of six, only one of them currently makes his living primarily from table tennis (Timothy Wang). The others, who are a lot older, include Jim Butler, Eric Owens, Viktor Subonj, Darko Rap, and Niraj Oak. They mostly made their living in other ways, even at the prime of their careers in the US. Viktor teaches school, Eric, Darko and Jimmy are massage therapists, and Niraj is an engineer. Timothy is currently one of the principals in a new TT club here that is fantastic, and is already attracting swarms of children, which is nice to see. He makes some money playing, more coaching (I am one of his students). I hope it works out. Too soon to know for sure.

Actually, when Viktor first came to the US he made his living coaching -- barely!!!! His income was so tenuous he ended up getting a teaching certificate (he already had a BS from Romania) and then a MS degree and now he is a school principle. Same with Darko in terms of having to fairly quickly find a different way to make a living here. Niraj is a special case, he never made any money playing, but was also nowhere near the same level as those guys, and he has always considered himself to be a completely amateur player.

I don't honestly think you can make a living playing TT in the US unless you win almost every tournament you play. Problem with that strategy is that these days enough Chinese players come here that winning every tournament is not something you can count on. Historically (going back some 20-25 years or so), in the US some really good Chinese player would come and dominate for a few years. I am thinking of guys lik Cheng Yinghua, and after him Fan Yiyong. Those guys would win every tournament for awhile and could support themselves mostly by playing. But now there are enough young Chinese guys coming that no one of them can really dominate for long, especially since their playing level drops rapidly without the same level of training and practice partners they had in China (and if they have to coach also).

It is a pretty grim picture at the moment.

But most of these people coming to the US are also coaching kids. So like Tony says, with kids there may be some basis to grow the sport (especially if by some miracle it can be taught more in schools). As things stand now, any good young players produced here are going to have to leave the country to play professionally. Most won't. Most will go to the university and do something useful with their lives.

Now, some will go and play abroad. Jim Butler was actually doing that in Sweden in the 90s until injuries caught short his first career. He was also around 70 in the world at his best. Timothy played a couple of years in Netherlands (while living in Belgium). Eric trained a lot abroad (Sweden, Korea, China) but I don't think he ever competed professionally on club teams there. Niraj, Viktor, and Darko all played for junior national teams (in India and former Yugoslavia) before coming here. Actually I think Darko was on the Yugoslavian men's national team. Viktor and Darko escaped what was then a war zone to come here, but what they found when they got here was a real economic grind. Extending this to people who I don't actually know, Eric Boggan way back in the 80s played professionally abroad (but was also in the top 30 in the world). After awhile he didn't want to do that anymore.

The problem is that most of the male juniors we have produced here pretty much ever since Eric Boggan simply aren't good enough to make much of a living playing professionally in most of Europe or Asia. If they are paying you, you had better win. Kanac Jha may be different, we will see. The girls from here probably are good enough, but also seem to have other things they want to do.
 
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I think Baal pretty much just summed up USA and many other countries.
Best post of the year too!!

Why should we allow kids to risk they livelihood to play table tennis?
Olympic spirit is one thing, but everyone wants to marry and have kids (well so I think), everyone would need financial support or rather to provide financial support.

Baal, you mentioned Timothy.
So his table tennis earnings is pretty much coaching (just like all those other top players in the US who are coaching at the moment)
I know coaching could hurt playing. One would need to coach certain hours a day to really make some income.
Coaching is tiring and taking away your time and energy for training.

As someone who has finish school (Timothy) do you think it is viable for Timothy to become a full time player with part time coaching, or is he more a full time coach that trains now and then?

We need full time playing athletes for TT and after the end of career to continue as full time coaches.
This would be the only sustainable pathway for table tennis to succeed.
Otherwise, it will always be a secondary or third priority agenda in one's life

On another note (I always like to look at successful case studies), how is the English top players making a living off TT
I assume it would be club salary?
I doubt TT England is provide salaries?
English forum members?
 
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The problem is that most of the male juniors we have produced here pretty much ever since Eric Boggan simply aren't good enough to make much of a living playing professionally in most of Europe or Asia. If they are paying you, you had better win. Kanac Jha may be different, we will see. The girls from here probably are good enough, but also seem to have other things they want to do.

I agree with this. Player like Calderano is a promising junior and good enough to play and make a living abroad. If you're good, talented and dedicated enough, there's a way. They may need help financialy at the start like Mizutani but at the end of the day, it's the talent that counts.

Like all others said, USA doesn't seem to have a problem with producing world class junior players(sign of good player base and infrastructure), so what they really need is high performance system that allows junior players to develop further.
 
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Biggest challenge is the cost of living in US , which means

a. Very few parents can afford to send their kids to as much international quality training as is necessary to bring them to that level. What I have seen from close quarters is that the gap between 2400 and 2600 is as much about resources , as it is about talent . So you see if you look at the demographics you see a lot of players in the 2200 - 2400 range , who might have made it as 2600 + players had their parents started giving them more coaching earlier during their development , so they reach 2300 + ratings at an age where time has already run out on them. If you see the common thread between Kanak, Lilly and Ariel all their parents were able to take the leap of faith, its another story that in the case of Ariel they leaped back to make sure she graduates from Princeton but all of these kids had ample quality coaching ... in a country funding a coaching where the fees start at 70 dollars an hour for really good coaches is not easy

b. Unless you are in top 50 in the world you cannot make money just by playing at the international level. Hence, who will take the risk in a country with such high cost of living to ask their kids to only focus on table tennis unless they have the financial wherewithal to fund their entire life.

So yes, infrastructure is definitely missing in the US and that is what is contributing to this scarcity of top athelets and by infrastructure I mean highest quality of coaching at an affordable price , this will not change unless this becomes a university sport with a league that generates media revenue , only then you can get salaried coaches/system who will be investing in kids to reap the financial benefits ...

its all about money folks !
 
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I like to add, you don't need to be in the Top 50 in the world to make money.
Playing international (ITTF) doesn't make you money.
The prize money are bonus, but can't be a salary.

Playing in Clubs makes you money. And there is more than 50 players in the world that is making money via clubs.

I agree, it is all about money - in and out.
That is why I say, American need to turn TT to become Pro
It will need viewership to support that, not the current members x 2 or x5 or x 10, that would not be enough
 
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They certainly have talent here, the current level of the cadets is fairly strong and the junior girls have excelled in recent years (2 bronze medals last 2 years WJC teams)

A paid professional league in my mind is the only answer. Foreign countries limit the number of foreign players in each team, this would protect US players from the overwhelming number of Chinese players coming in to play here but also still expose them to that level of competition on a smaller scale.

Developing a league, giving it solid media coverage and then attracting sponsorship is the direction that we need to take. Every successful country has a strong league system, China, Germany, Japan, Russia, France and then we have the ECL which helps the level of competition in Europe.

Countries without strong league systems are African based countries, Oceania based countries and nations of North and South America. The strength of the professional league systems is a gamechanger and that's why Europe and Asia are excelling.

Also if they have strong national team programs then it aids them in sending potential professional players abroad to overseas leagues. If the right resources can be acquired then they can support the players who do choose to try and go professional.

At the end of the day USATT need to sit down with players who are seriously considering table tennis as a future and try and work with them to find sponsors and support in order to make that a reality, otherwise they are forced to give up their dream and the cycle continues. All it takes is for a handful of players to go pro and the ball starts rolling and people will be able to see that there is a path in place for the dreamers!
 
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Yes. Calderano is a case in point also, because Brazil actually has professional leagues, at least around Sao Paolo, and he could probably make a living and compete regularly without living in Europe (even though he does live and play in Europe).

The overwhelming challenge to starting a professional leauge in the US is geography. There are areas of some table tennis density around the country. West coast urban centers especially LA and Silicon Valley; New York/New Jersey; Washington DC/Philly; Houston/Dallas/Austin to name a few --- where good cadets and juniors are being produced. (These are always centered around very large cities with very large Asian immigrant populations). And each of those areas requires airplane travel to realistically go from one to another. It takes about 3.5 hours to fly from Houston to LA. So you could create a professional league within Southern California (for example) or within Texas (which has an area the same as France), but then it would never have national appeal or funding.

In European countries, fast train travel over shorter distances makes that problem much easier to solve.

Table tennis in the US is a huge chicken and egg problem. How to produce good players. And then how to keep good players so you can continue to produce them.
 
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There's no professional league in Japan; only a corporate league with 2 divs. Top players generally don't progress after they graduate uni which is why the national team started to send players to overseas league(eg. Kishikawa, Mizutani, Matsudaira).
Now that table tennis has gained public recognition thanks to Fukuhara, players have enough back up from their sponsors and teams to go to x numbers of pro tours per year. Funding wise, Tokyo olympic meant that there're now financial support from JOC but before that, Fukuhara really helped Japanese TT and junior development as more parents are training with their children from young age.
 
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There's no professional league in Japan; only a corporate league with 2 divs. Top players generally don't progress after they graduate uni which is why the national team started to send players to overseas league(eg. Kishikawa, Mizutani, Matsudaira).
Now that table tennis has gained public recognition thanks to Fukuhara, players have enough back up from their sponsors and teams to go to x numbers of pro tours per year. Funding wise, Tokyo olympic meant that there're now financial support from JOC but before that, Fukuhara really helped Japanese TT and junior development as more parents are training with their children from young age.

Are players paid to play in the corporate league in Japan?
 
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Are players paid to play in the corporate league in Japan?

Nope, most of them work in the morning and practice in the afternoon. They have a choice to keep working at their company when they retire. Some players(ie. Chinese players) are under contract but generally they are not full professionals.
 
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That's a shame, Japan used to have an incredibly lucrative and high level Super Circuit back in the day for many years which attracted players from all over the world, the likes of Primorac, Persson, Kim Taek Soo, Samsonov etc.

Ah, I remember that. That was such a good pro league with a dedicated cable channel. Unfortunately the main sponsor Kenshoen had run out of money and the leage ceased to exist on 2006. That was back in the day when Japan had one of the worst finish in World teams and men's national champion was beaten by Li Chunli.
 
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