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  1. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    Sep 2013
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    #21
    Some facts/history

    Chinese coach goes to Belgium (at first treated as a traitor) - result - World Champion over China
    Sweden's Greats - dominated China
    Austrian surprise - world champion over China
    German super start - world cup winner over China
    Korean footwork stars - 1998, 2004 Olympic champion over China

    Over the pass 20 years, we have seen quite a lot of facts and to me, that could only be a start.

    The rule changes, equipment changes etc has made it more challenging for all players.
    I think if each of the top 10 countries can have "More" top players, then the result could be really different.
    Its doable for sure

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TTHopeful
    Impossible, period
    Yeah, right..... let's just give up from beginning and play darts. I'm sure that's the right mindset....Not!

    Sorry mate, but from someone carrying the name TT-Hopeful i've expected something else... Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't sound hopeful at all!
    Where's the hope, mate?
    I think Eli's on the right path. He at least tries, instead of giving up from the start.

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    Last edited by Suga D; 11-19-2016 at 10:39 AM.

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    #23
    However, I think table tennis is at a point where it needs to start innovating again. Different grips, different strategies, different blade designs all need to be fully explored. I've read that some clubs are teaching kids V-grip in China, and found a website of a man who is designing a blade that can quickly and easily (with some training of course) change between SH and PH...also in China. Both of these may be fruitless, but who knows? Everyone needs to innovate, try and fail. For example, in very recent years we have seen enormous success at the highest level in a very small number of players playing the modern defensive and rpb ph style. both have undergone significant innovation, but are we promoting it in our clubs? not really. Have either of these styles been optimised by equipment, technique and strategy like say, offensive minded SH play? probably not at all. This is the greatest tragedy to me in TT. there are so many different and beautiful ways of playing the game, but we just teach and promote what we know or argue is most optimal.

    Also, if i was good enough, I'd come and work for you instantly Eli. but not a chance.

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    #24
    Why would you say that TT needs "hardware innovations" ? I mean, just watch table tennis in 80's, in 90's, in 2000's......the game is evolving A LOT, far more than most of other sports.

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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Yecats Encerwal
    Those who say they can't and those who say they can are both often right.
    No disrespect but I think I read a fortune cookie that said this.
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    No disrespect but I think I read a fortune cookie that said this.
    His point is a good one - probably just not stated in a tone that fit the mode of the discussion.

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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by James Livesey
    However, I think table tennis is at a point where it needs to start innovating again. Different grips, different strategies, different blade designs all need to be fully explored. I've read that some clubs are teaching kids V-grip in China, and found a website of a man who is designing a blade that can quickly and easily (with some training of course) change between SH and PH...also in China. Both of these may be fruitless, but who knows? Everyone needs to innovate, try and fail. For example, in very recent years we have seen enormous success at the highest level in a very small number of players playing the modern defensive and rpb ph style. both have undergone significant innovation, but are we promoting it in our clubs? not really. Have either of these styles been optimised by equipment, technique and strategy like say, offensive minded SH play? probably not at all. This is the greatest tragedy to me in TT. there are so many different and beautiful ways of playing the game, but we just teach and promote what we know or argue is most optimal.

    Also, if i was good enough, I'd come and work for you instantly Eli. but not a chance.
    IMO, this is a great post, probably because the same thing has been on my mind. I find it very hard to believe that the benefit of the shakehand's racket and grip is anything more than that it is what the experts know how to use and teach. There should be grips and designs that take advantage of aspects of the human physiology better. The problem though is that TT has too little money flowing in it for anyone to make the serious investment other than China or Japan who invest seemingly unreasonable amounts of money into the sport.

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  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    His point is a good one - probably just not stated in a tone that fit the mode of the discussion.
    I was just trying to be funny and be a clown.

    It is true that other countries or the rest of the TT world in general may or may not catch up to China. It is worth finding a way to get that to happen. But it is true that China is the only country that puts resources into training potential talent from an early age and subsidizes training through those years where children in other countries would have to make a decision: financial security and education or Table Tennis. This is a big factor.

    Part of what we would need to see to determine the next 10 years of table tennis is: are there other young and rising TT stars in China after ML and FZD have started to fade?

    By the way, I have never see a fortune cookie that said that. But it really does sound like something from a fortune cookie.



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  9. Yecats Encerwal is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    His point is a good one - probably just not stated in a tone that fit the mode of the discussion.
    I didn't realise there was a "tone" to fit to haha

    I was simply stating a fact, it was more of a reply to people who are saying it is "impossible".

    Granted, it is probably something that could be found in a fortune cookie!!

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    #30
    I think it's worth pointing out that non of the Chinese players made it to the semis in the Swedish Open, granted, they are the B-Team, but the gap between the top Europeans and the top Chinese (outside the big 4) seems to be getting smaller. Of course, there are other factors, such as inexperience against European opposition, but the signs are looking up.

    Didn't Weikert mention a sort of "integrated camp" where the top European talents train and live with the CNT? I think, for now, the best thing the top non-Chinese players should adopt the "If you can't beat em, join em." Mindset (for development) until a proper system I developed.

    Also, why don't we send coaches over to China to study the Chinese coaching techniques?

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPaco
    I think it's worth pointing out that non of the Chinese players made it to the semis in the Swedish Open, granted, they are the B-Team, but the gap between the top Europeans and the top Chinese (outside the big 4) seems to be getting smaller. Of course, there are other factors, such as inexperience against European opposition, but the signs are looking up.

    Didn't Weikert mention a sort of "integrated camp" where the top European talents train and live with the CNT? I think, for now, the best thing the top non-Chinese players should adopt the "If you can't beat em, join em." Mindset (for development) until a proper system I developed.

    Also, why don't we send coaches over to China to study the Chinese coaching techniques?

    Sent from my MyPhoneMY27 using Tapatalk
    That's already happening.
    According to the website Mytischtennis.de the TTBL club TTF Ochsenhausen [the club Liam Pitchford has been playing for until this season] with their Liebherr's Master College and the CTTSL club Shandong Luneng have decided to cooperate in the near future, by exchanging knowledge, players and coaches.
    Here's a Link to the article.

    http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/b...ranchenfuehrer

    It's in german though, if requested i can try to translate later on.

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    Last edited by Suga D; 11-25-2016 at 05:23 PM.

  12. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Suga D
    That's already happening.
    According to the website Mytischtennis.de the TTBL club TTF Ochsenhausen and the CTTSL club Shandong Luneng have decided to cooperate in the near future, by exchanging knowledge, players and coaches.
    Here's a Link to the article.

    http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/b...ranchenfuehrer

    It's in german though, if requested i can try to translate later on.
    I shared this "goal" many years back.
    As we can see, there is already a few chinese table tennis college in the world
    There is pro team and pro team, province & province, city and city.

    China is the ultimate"enemy" to beat, but then this enemy is helping you to become stronger

    I wonder if today Japan is the king, or Korea, or Germany, or Sweden (sweden was the king before), if these countries will do as much as what China is "contributing for free"

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  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #33

    Can China's table tennis team be beaten?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    I shared this "goal" many years back.
    As we can see, there is already a few chinese table tennis college in the world
    There is pro team and pro team, province & province, city and city.

    China is the ultimate"enemy" to beat, but then this enemy is helping you to become stronger

    I wonder if today Japan is the king, or Korea, or Germany, or Sweden (sweden was the king before), if these countries will do as much as what China is "contributing for free"
    Yes. China is truly table tennis ambassadors to the world. And they have developed the sport so far beyond anyone else that they can teach the rest of the world and still be ahead.


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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-24-2016 at 07:41 PM.
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Yes. China is truly table tennis ambassadors to the world. And they have developed the sport so far beyond anyone else that they can teach the rest of the world and still be ahead.
    Agreed. It seems, and this is just an observation, that the top players in China can make a lot of money and achieve a high status as a sports star.
    These are decent motivators for people past 18 along with the love for the game. Can the same be said for other countries? If it takes full time commitment to be a top player and it doesn't pay, why wouldn't you abandon it for a better career? On the business side, the
    sports money needs to come from big events, media, spectators etc before the sports star can become a brand.

    I wonder how much the top Chinese make money-wise in comparison to top Europeans?

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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    I shared this "goal" many years back.
    As we can see, there is already a few chinese table tennis college in the world
    There is pro team and pro team, province & province, city and city.

    China is the ultimate"enemy" to beat, but then this enemy is helping you to become stronger

    I wonder if today Japan is the king, or Korea, or Germany, or Sweden (sweden was the king before), if these countries will do as much as what China is "contributing for free"
    I see your point to a degree, but I think China [the Tabletennis Association] has realized that helping others will also help themselves too, because the lack of competition leads to stagnation, my dear friend.

    Also the exchange isn't just for tabletennis. The famous german football (soccer) coach Felix Magath is now coach for Shandong Luneng's Football Team.

    The whole article is quite an interesting read.
    I haven't made a translation of the whole interview though, since it wasn't requested.
    But here are some excerpts that might be interesting:

    Mytischtennis.de: China profits from German Football Know-how and Germany profits from China's tabletennis knowledge. Whose idea was this cooperation between the Liebherr Masters College and the CTTSL club Shandong Luneng:

    Ochsenhausen's Manager Kristijan Pejinovic: it was our idea after long debates that seeking for help from the leaders in the sports can only be helpful and since one of our coaches Fu Yong who is originally from Jinan which is one of Shandong Luneng's bases and still has good contacts to them and since not many get the chance to look behind the scenery of a chinese club we want to take advantage of this.

    Mytischtennis.de: the reasons for the Liebherr's Masters College are quite obvious, but China could do well without you, so what do they hope to benefit from?

    Pejinovic: well they're mainly interested at cultural exchange. But we can also be helpful in other areas. See the two top chinese leagues mainly have players from asia and to avoid monotony for the audience they seek for more contacts to european players, because this monotony is becoming problematic more and more and if players like Boll and Ovtcharov are playing in the CTTSL this helps prevent this.
    So Shandong Luneng has asked us to send 2 or 3 players to them and they will send 2 or 3 players over here, because they develop so many talented players and there are just a few clubs, it is quite difficult to give more than just a few players regular competitive play. But that's exactly the problem. The chinese season is pretty short so most of them can only practice and lack competitive playing experience. To help these players to progress they need more competitive play. Hence Shandong will send talented players over here, and we'll try to organise that they can sign up with european top clubs. At the moment they feel a bit limited by their Tabletennis Association and we want to help break barriers.

    Mytischtennis.de: so what will be your plans?

    Pejinovic: we've already sent 3 of our students to China. It was interesting for our players to see how they practice over there and in february we're expecting a larger group from China who will stay 3 to 4 weeks to see how we're working over here and also might even talk about plans for the next season.

    Mytischtennis.de: how will Ochsenhausen benefit from this?

    Pejinovic: well not in terms of playing for our TTBL Team. At the moment this just doesn't fit our strategy. We're trying to develop the youth and are so far quite satisfied. But you should never say never.

    Mytischtennis.de: where is China ahead?

    Pejinovic: there are many points. What shall i start with? Europeans have made the same mistakes. No matter if Germany, Sweden or Hungary. After having a 'golden' Generation everyone of them forgot to build up the following generation and lead them to a that level. So the problem is selfmade. At the moment it's hard for coaches to find good jobs. But less good coaches will lead to less good players which will then lead to less media interest. And this might cause sponsors to not extend their sponsorship.
    In europe there are so many 'under-construction' zones, and there is plenty to do - which is actually good, but these construction zones need to be spotted to be able to work them out. Do the children over here learn to play tabletennis at school?

    Mytischtennis.de: well, i haven't...

    Pejinovic: and that is exactly the problem. How shall the kids learn to play if they don't accidentally bump into a club? That's exactly the difference to countries like China. They get in touch with tabletennis from an early age on.
    But i'm not expecting to change our society, but i can do what I'm capable of in my area.

    (Source: mytischtennis.de )

    The last sentence sounds a bit like that car sticker: Think global - act local.

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    #36
    We will never know because they have been dominating it for quite some time.

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    #37
    When Zhang Jike represents Qatar at 2020 Tokyo Olympics

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    #38
    Suga D

    It is a 2 way trade for sure, but in many cases the trade is more favour to non Chinese country.
    China has been spending a lot of money on other sports for sure.

    I disagree with you in a sense that CTTA is doing all this to help themselves, but rather it is more for the objective of showing the world, who is BIG Brother.

    You can't explain a trade when the ambassador of China offers the TT association a free coach for the next 3 years, or offer them a scholarship to bring juniors to China for 2 years and asking nothing for return.

    In SA, Shan Dong and Western Cape also had a trade of 8 or 9 sporting codes. From what I see, its a fair trade for South AFrican, unfair for the Chinese

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    #39
    Suga D

    I just finish reading again, and thank you for the translation.

    My news I got many years back is indeed materializing everywhere. Each body is asked to open up to foreigners.

    I think the crucial part as mentioned as the coaches and careers.
    In many parts of your "champion division" and 1st division WTTTC level teams, as a player the career perspective is really low.
    So as I said before - which sane parents will allow the kid to play TT full time until 30 or 35 years old?
    And is there money to coach from 35 to retirement?

    In China the national level is really well structures and it will look after the assets
    In other parts of the world - you are on your own after you retire as a player

    now let me lower the gears a bit, if one has just gotten to National Team (even B team), then one become a head coach in China or abroad.
    Or can become a expat and become a merc and travel the world (see how many is in Europe and USA).

    Granted, the previous decade of China, many people are poor and sports is the most likely hood to get out of poverty and many parents sacrifice the "only" kid.
    Nowadays when people are getting wealthier and your bigger cities like Shanghai, we have seen less kids taken up in sports as a whole (yes, a big number of kids goes to other sports nowadays other than TT, but the overall number is lesser). So again this to me is a sign where parents wants they kids to go the educational route and get a non sports career compared to the previous decades. This is the same as the West isn't it?

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    #40
    I think in near future they can be beatable.after ma long,zhang jike and xuxin retire.Oly Fzd is much better but others are beatable.do you see others?

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