The All Time Greatest

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This is a thread that has probably come up a number of times, but is certainly worth revisiting every now and again as the pro scene is always evolving!

So my question is, who, in your opinion, is the greatest TT player to have graced the table?

Below is just my opinion, I would love to hear yours!

Ma Long has been dominant recently, but I think in terms of being the"all time great" (if it is even possible to choose just one person), Next years WTTC is going to be crucial. I think if ZJK can win a third individual WTTC, combined with his Olympic title and two World Cups, he will be one of, if not the greatest player.

Granted, ZJK hasn’t won as many pro tours as Ma Long; however I think that if he manages to come back next year and win the WTTC,this is a massive achievement in itself, let alone it being his third individual title. For him to reach the final of the Olympics this year was also a huge achievement as he was under a ton of pressure, and he played amazingly up until the second set of the final.

If Ma Long wins next year’s WTTC, it is very hard to deny that he can go down as the greatest. This is why I think next year’s event is so crucial and definitely one to watch!

Obviously you have the likes of Waldner who had fantastic achievements,and you could argue that his rise against the Chinese could put him at the top spot on the “all-time greatest list” however he just doesn’t quite hit the top of my list, probably because I wasn’t around to watch him at his peak and can only watch Youtube videos of him. Also you can also argue that for ZJK, Ma Long etc to reach the top of the Chinese ladder is an incredible achievement in itself, let alone to go on to win world events.

Ultimately, everyone will have a different opinion on this topic and will argue as to what makes a player “great”. For me, the ability to perform on the biggest of stages makes a player great which is why I have always sided with Zhang Jike. Lets see what happens next year!
 
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Maybe I'm biased due to my nationality. But I think it's hard to dethrone Waldner.
My view is that, to be great you need more than titles. Waldner was really good for so long. He was in the final in 1987. And in the Olympics 2000. With a semifinal apperence in 2004. To me, that is super impressive. He was able to compete with the chinese for so long across several "generations".

But that would be almost impossible in China, since the spots in their national team are som few with so many good players.
 
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I don't need any reason, you just have to watch him and that answers the question alone.

Hmmm not a very convincing answer, but okay, if that's your opinion then that's your opinion :)

I understand both of you. Having seen Waldner playing from an early age on i can understand your point, but to someone younger it's a total different story.
Waldner's game doesn't or rather didn't Look as spectacular and athletic as Xu Xin's game for instance.
And i believe he could be having quite a hard time with the modern game. I'm not saying he wouldn't be able to adapt, but it's actually impossible to compare, 'cause the game has changed so much...
I think it will be easier finding the best player of an era instead of finding an all time greatest. This will be nearly an impossible task IMHO. The game has just become too different.
 
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Maybe I'm biased due to my nationality. But I think it's hard to dethrone Waldner.
My view is that, to be great you need more than titles. Waldner was really good for so long. He was in the final in 1987. And in the Olympics 2000. With a semifinal apperence in 2004. To me, that is super impressive. He was able to compete with the chinese for so long across several "generations".

But that would be almost impossible in China, since the spots in their national team are som few with so many good players.

Your last point about the CNT is important, Waldner would have had very little to fight for nationally which meant he could focus more on international play. He never had a FZD at his heels trying to take his place, which eases the pressure a bit. But you make a good point that he was great for a long time, the same could be said about Vladdy! :)
 
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I understand both of you. Having seen Waldner playing from an early age on i can understand your point, but to someone younger it's a total different story.
Waldner's game doesn't or rather didn't Look as spectacular and athletic as Xu Xin's game for instance.
And i believe he could be having quite a hard time with the modern game. I'm not saying he wouldn't be able to adapt, but it's actually impossible to compare, 'cause the game has changed so much...
I think it will be easier finding the best player of an era instead of finding an all time greatest. This will be nearly an impossible task IMHO. The game has just become too different.

Agreed! Maybe we should focus on 2005 upwards haha :)

That's why my post was sort of more focused on titles taken rather than playstyles etc, makes it easier to compare because its more relative :)
 
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Agreed! Maybe we should focus on 2005 upwards haha :)

That's why my post was sort of more focused on titles taken rather than playstyles etc, makes it easier to compare because its more relative :)

Probably easier to split eras up into just decades -
90s = waldner
00s = WLQ (arguably Ma Lin also, but I'd probably say WLQ was the best player of the 00s)
2010s = ma long or zhang jike - the true dilemma! :)
 
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Agreed! Maybe we should focus on 2005 upwards haha :)

That's why my post was sort of more focused on titles taken rather than playstyles etc, makes it easier to compare because its more relative :)

Haha :)

I think Blueskies has a point though, but if we see it that way, then only one player comes to my mind who has been able to play on such a high level for such a long time. Samsonov.
And Vladi even reached olympics semifinal at such an age...

But maybe looking at decades indeed makes a little more sense here.
 
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Your last point about the CNT is important, Waldner would have had very little to fight for nationally which meant he could focus more on international play. He never had a FZD at his heels trying to take his place, which eases the pressure a bit.

Sorry mate, but I think this is not very accurate.

Waldner was rivaled by many on a National level.
Appelgren, Persson, Lindh, Peter Karlsson just to name a few.
Also we must not forget about the old masters like Bengtsson, Johannson, Tickan which gave him an excellent solid foundation....

In fact many people think exactly THIS is the reason why the swedish team got so good.
They constantly kept pushing and challenging each other.
 
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Sorry mate, but I think this is not very accurate.

Waldner was rivaled by many on a National level.
Appelgren, Persson, Lindh, Peter Karlsson just to name a few.
Also we must not forget about the old masters like Bengtsson, Johannson, Tickan which gave him an excellent solid foundation....

In fact many people think exactly THIS is the reason why the swedish team got so good.
They constantly kept pushing and challenging each other.

Ah, my apologies, I didn't realise the competition was so strong in Sweden! Its common only to hear of Waldner and Persson on a regular basis which is why I wrongly assumed the depth wasn't there.

My bad.

Could you still argue that the CNT of today has more depth than the Swedish team of that era? Or is that incorrect?
 
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Haha :)

I think Blueskies has a point though, but if we see it that way, then only one player comes to my mind who has been able to play on such a high level for such a long time. Samsonov.
And Vladi even reached olympics semifinal at such an age...

But maybe looking at decades indeed makes a little more sense here.

I think waldner was 38 when he reached the semi in '04 - only two years younger than vladi this year - and whilst vlad beat ovtcharov to get there waldner took out timo boll and Ma Lin in consecutive rounds and was put out by RSM in the form of his life - id argue his performance in 2004 was more impressive than vladi's this year.


Not to take away from Vladi as what he did was pretty damn impressive but I would argue that waldner maintained his incredibly high level of play for just as long, if not longer (let's also not forget that he played for many years in the bundesliga after retiring internationally and continue to put out some decent results!)
 
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Could you still argue that the CNT of today has more depth than the Swedish team of that era? Or is that incorrect?

No worries, it's all good, mate.

In terms of quantity i guess China is undisputably ahead. But Sweden also had quite a few players in the top ten.
So if one compares the percentage of high level players to the number of population, Sweden could actually even be ahead.
[Emoji2]
But the swedish scene to that time was different with a number of world class players and hence a big challenge for young players.

Someone please correct me, but I think Waldner was sixteen years old in the European Finals vs. Mikael Appelgren 1982, when i was 10 y.o.

[Edit: had to correct myself.
It's not 1985 but 1982]

Here's a Link to that famous match:

But there are people on this forum like Inkognito, Baal, Magic_M and a few more with a much deeper Insight on the swedish tabletennis scene. As i said, i was quite young...
 
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The difference between Waldner and Samsonov is, he won WTTC and Olympic singles and team finals.

The thing about wondering if Waldner would have played as long if he had the internal competition that CNT players have with the younger players coming up is that Waldner won against the top players from 4 generations of CNT players. Won. Not "came close."

It is also rumored that in 1991 Waldner threw the WTTC finals to his best friend and teammate, Jorgen Persson. Think about what that means if it is true for a moment.

However, I have to agree with Suga D!!!! You can't compare players from different eras.

Ma Long and ZJK could not even exist without the innovations Waldner adapted to the game in his career between 1983 and 2006. It was Waldner that caused China to send a player to SWEDEN (Kong Linghui) to learn the European style that they were losing to in the 1990s. China recognized the import of Waldner's tactics, style and dynamic play and they decided to learn from it.

Today's players have different training and skills than players in the 80s or 90s had.

A great player should be judged by his ability to stand above the rest of the players from his era. Waldner did that from 1989-1998 better than anyone else in that Era. You should not try to take that away from him. Nor should anyone try to take away from Wang Liqin the beautiful play or the level of dominance he exhibited at his height.

Or Ma Lin! It could be argued that he is the greatest player never to have won a WTTC title. Or Wang Hao, who has more Olympic silver medals than anyone in the singles event!! It is hard to get to the finals of the Olympics that many times. And look at how he innovated and showed that you can use the RPB to its full potential.

Or what about VICTOR BARNA. how long did he dominate table tennis for!!!!

Comparing Joe Lewis to Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson in boxing just doesn't work. They fought in different eras. Same with the top TT players of their era. They beat everyone in their era and won all the top titles. You can't ask them to go forward or back in history to fight against different eras.

But an interesting note: Waldner did play Ma Long in 2009 and in 2011. Fat, old, beer drinking, out of shape, Waldner with a bad back and clearly unable to move well, still gave Ma Long a run for his money both times. He couldn't move but his tactics gave Ma Long fits and he played Ma Long better than most active players of today outside of the top CNT players. It does say something.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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Thanks, Carl.

I guess the argument of who is the "greatest" can only be answered by era, you are right. This thread is just designed to gauge people's opinions and it seems, as I had guessed, Waldner is very popular (understandably). Play styles change from Era to Era, making side by side comparisons virtually impossible.

Thanks for your input Carl! Though I still stand by the fact that if ZJK wins the WTTC next year (unlikely but possible) he will be, for me, the greatest in terms of achievements :) Just my opinion!
 
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