Jab/Shovel Service video

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My training video was not a success. The answer was top spin disguised as back spin. It is the first serve described in the video, the serve you are talking about. I do not manage to execute top spin every time, so it is frequently side spin.
I wanted to know whether it could have tricked you into a back spin serve. I have not tried it with a real opponent yet.

It is the serve motion I use most of the time, so I could see what you were doing. But you are well on your way! Once you start messing with this serve, you eventually find what gets opponents to guess wrong. It won't take you long and it won't make your wrists sore like reverse pendulum. TTEdge has a good video on some other tricks to make it sneakier.
 
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In my experience, the way this kind of serve is deceptive because 1. your arm comes more from behind the body so receiver can't see it until later and less of it, this little bit is important to how they prepare if you can serve to different locations 2. the spin deception is not back vs side or top, but back vs on-axis. Real side is easier to see because how you must angle the racket different to contact the side, but back and axis are similar racket angle from receiver perspective.

the deception im talking about is sidetop vs sideunder because the pendulum or reverse pendulum motion are quite similar even on pure sidespin. Top & under deception is extremely difficult to disguise that was my comparison. What do you mean by "on" axis? You seem not to understand what I was explaining, Sidetop sideunder and pure side can all be created with the same motion before and after contact. It is also a matter of timing, contacting the ball at different phases of its descendance,maintaining the same "shoveling" action (from side, then down, then up after contact has been made)

The whole point of deception is to create a fast motion where before and after contact the motion is the same. This "Shovel" technique is great because the nature of the motion creates the deception making a sidetop serve look like sideunder because the hand seems to "shove" under the ball and then going upwards after contact, giving the impression that the ball has underspin

On a re gular pendulum serve , at least in my eyes, is much harder to hide the spin because the receiver has better vision of the contact point without the playing hand getting in the way . In the shovel service, if you manage to do it fast like this guy does the follow through somehow "confuses" the receiver more compared to a pendulum serve where the playing hand can follow through without obstructing vision of the contact point.

Miu hirano is a great example of this service
 
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It is the serve motion I use most of the time, so I could see what you were doing. But you are well on your way! Once you start messing with this serve, you eventually find what gets opponents to guess wrong. It won't take you long and it won't make your wrists sore like reverse pendulum. TTEdge has a good video on some other tricks to make it sneakier.


Would like to echo Baal's sentiments. I was the student in the TTEdge videos and I did a lot of things to work on that serve and it got better with months of practice and seeing what worked in matches. My major point scorer is still backspin sold as topspin/sidespin. It's a fascinating serve and it gets better when you have an idea what to do. My original whip motions were too large and yours can be smaller and sharper.
 
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My training video was not a success. The answer was top spin disguised as back spin. It is the first serve described in the video, the serve you are talking about. I do not manage to execute top spin every time, so it is frequently side spin.
I wanted to know whether it could have tricked you into a back spin serve. I have not tried it with a real opponent yet.


Donot, bother practicing with pure topspin vs pure underspin deception . Sidetop looking as sideunder and viceversa is just fine (besides the whole point of deception is for the ball to popup,or go straight to the net, not trying to copy ma lin). I am really jealous of your fluent motion so you are on your way once you manage to make your serves low.
 
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Donot, bother practicing with pure topspin vs pure underspin deception . Sidetop looking as sideunder and viceversa is just fine (besides the whole point of deception is for the ball to popup,or go straight to the net, not trying to copy ma lin). I am really jealous of your fluent motion so you are on your way once you manage to make your serves low.

Totally agree on this.
Not too long ago we were training with Tanja Krämer [formerly Tanja Hain-Hoffmann], and she told us that it's not so much the amount of spin but rather the deceiption itself giving her easy popups. She said even in the Tischtennis Damen-Bundesliga some girls are struggling with her serves.
BTW:
In a couple of hours she and her team will be playing...
[Emoji6]
 
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the deception im talking about is sidetop vs sideunder because the pendulum or reverse pendulum motion are quite similar even on pure sidespin. Top & under deception is extremely difficult to disguise that was my comparison. What do you mean by "on" axis? You seem not to understand what I was explaining, Sidetop sideunder and pure side can all be created with the same motion before and after contact. It is also a matter of timing, contacting the ball at different phases of its descendance,maintaining the same "shoveling" action (from side, then down, then up after contact has been made)

I see what you're saying, and I was saying the same thing for pendulum underspin serve, with the same type of deception except rotated 90 degree.

What on-axis means: the ball can rotate in 3 axis. top/under is one, left/right side is another, on-axis is the third with axis towards the receiver.

In your example, the variation on the sidespin is moving the racket up bit more or down bit, but in the same plane as for sidespin so it's harder for receiver to judge. In my example, the variation on the underspin is moving the racket to one side bit more, but also in the same plane so similar hard to judge. The result if they push is pop-up in the direction of the axis spin you apply, because there's less under than they expect and axis causes some side-like reaction for pushes.


The whole point of deception is to create a fast motion where before and after contact the motion is the same. This "Shovel" technique is great because the nature of the motion creates the deception making a sidetop serve look like sideunder because the hand seems to "shove" under the ball and then going upwards after contact, giving the impression that the ball has underspin

This is another type of deception where the contact point isn't where it's pretend to be. In the video it's earlier but server keeps swinging to sell the backspin. I do the same idea but much simpler in a regular underspin serve, but the ball is toss slight more back and contact before normal point, so same motion but much less spin than normal. When you try to do complicated stuff like in the video, unless it's perfect smart opponent will know something is up.


On a re gular pendulum serve , at least in my eyes, is much harder to hide the spin because the receiver has better vision of the contact point without the playing hand getting in the way . In the shovel service, if you manage to do it fast like this guy does the follow through somehow "confuses" the receiver more compared to a pendulum serve where the playing hand can follow through without obstructing vision of the contact point.

Miu hirano is a great example of this service

I think the shovel for this is only more effective because few people serve that way, so most aren't use to figuring out what's wrong if it's not spin they expect. Some portion of penholders do shovel because it's more natural motion for them, just like their push shot.

There was some serve advice Werner Schlager gave about his serve where the racket come from below the ball, and mixes in both what you're talking about above with sidetop/sideunder and quick change in racket direction like you say about this shovel serve, to get top or under. It's something unique he did and I would use sometimes, but people I practice with who've seen it a bunch stop being deceived because I never had the motivation to perfect the motion. But they still fall for the simple "dumb" things like more/less spin or even surprise long underspin after couple normal ones. The point being unless you want to put countless hours like a pro, people who get fooled will get wise to it and it stops work much quicker than it takes you to master.
 
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I can also see some people who serve good normally do not receive and play rally well (I am one of them). The guy who uses this serve to beat me can easily beat all <2000 players in my club. He can have a good match with a 2300 player in the beginning but then the next time playing he lost miserably. Relying too much on the ball to pop up or go straight to the net may take a toll on your total playing.
 
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I can also see some people who serve good normally do not receive and play rally well (I am one of them). The guy who uses this serve to beat me can easily beat all <2000 players in my club. He can have a good match with a 2300 player in the beginning but then the next time playing he lost miserably. Relying too much on the ball to pop up or go straight to the net may take a toll on your total playing.

Very true, but that can be fixed. People round out their games in different ways, time and ability permitting.
 
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I can also see some people who serve good normally do not receive and play rally well (I am one of them). The guy who uses this serve to beat me can easily beat all <2000 players in my club. He can have a good match with a 2300 player in the beginning but then the next time playing he lost miserably. Relying too much on the ball to pop up or go straight to the net may take a toll on your total playing.

I guess that's true in some way, Waldner was pretty bad at recieving(fantastic in rally though).
I think you get found out more by not having competant serves against higher level opponents. In fact, service is one of the primary factor for upsets. It's because better opponents have better shots hence have more chance of winnning the points in longer rallys.
 
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I guess that's true in some way, Waldner was pretty bad at recieving(fantastic in rally though).
I think you get found out more by not having competant serves against higher level opponents. In fact, service is one of the primary factor for upsets. It's because better opponents have better shots hence have more chance of winnning the points in longer rallys.

This is generally true but some better opponents are better because of serves. As someone who transformed from a rally player to a serve and attack player, I think that better serves made my level far more stable. I used to have lots of weird losses but after I got better serves, I stopped losing to players who were not clearly playing at my level.
 
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It is a very deceptive serve especially when it is fast like the Japanese player. Can you show in slow motion the racket position, location where the ball touches in top and under spins? I suspect the ball touches the racket in different places besides the ball contact points.
 
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