says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
It looks like someone has the EJ virus big time. Run. Run away. Otherwise the goon squad will catch you. And then there will be no cure for the EJ virus anymore.
Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Hahaha. It's a long story. I guess it has been a while since Der_Echte, NextLevel, a few other guys, and I baited and captured the goon squad with things like pro versions of a Butterfly Viscaria or National versions of H3 Blue Sponge, W997 blade or even those National issue socks and underwear.
I can't remember how it all started. But maybe Der_Echte can shed some light. [emoji2]
Or any of the other guys who remember the different ways in which we trapped and captured the goon squad in the sceptic tank of the Secret Hideout with the London sewer rats we got from Dan the man Ives.
Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Goon Squad is a fictitious (or real) enforcement arm of big tt companies, so Carl and Co leveraged both technology and old school smarts to entrap them into the shyt house.
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
says
ok, I will go back and make sure you have access.
Be...
Well-Known Member
but if the outerply thickness doesn't affect performance, then it shouldn't matter how deep carbon is, in the case of innerforce, or is it these blades are an exception?
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
says
2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
A classic TTD insider thing among members.
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
The difference of 0.1-0.3mm in the same single ply is different than the adding 1-1.5mm and a second ply with the grain aligned at a 90-degree angle to the first ply.
And I believe you have sort of taken what Baal said and misinterpreted it in a way that had nothing to do with what Baal said.
Despite the fact that, in designing the True Carbon blade, Donic made the blade with different thicknesses of the plies, the Donic True Carbon NEVERTHELESS, plays VERY similarly to the Butterfly ZJK ALC blade.
The two different companies are different companies. The way the blades have been made are not the same. But they feel remarkably similar.
Baal, is that basically what you were saying?
As far as I could read, there was no reason whatsoever to infer from Baal's statement that the Innerforce Series blades are a scam.
And that is where the goon squad made there appearance on the scene.
Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
says
ok, I will go back and make sure you have access.
Be...
Well-Known Member
As Carl said, I don't know for sure, but my guess is that if the carbon is quite far on the inside, like in an Innerforce, it matters quite a bit. I've never played with an Innerforce but pretty much everyone who has played with both blades says it is quite different from more typical Btfly ALC blade and has a much more wood-like feel. It seems like the difference in the outer ply thickness between the OTC and the ZJK-ALC is not enough to matter. In both cases, the composite layer is quite close to the surface, even if not exactly equally close. Both blades have classic Bttfly ALC feel, and like I said, I have one of each right now with fairly new sheets of MX-P on them and I really can't tell any difference to play with them. Outer ply obviously matters also if you change the type of wood.
Last edited:
says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Actually Arylate is a kind of Aramid. But when these TT companies call one blade Arylate Carbon and another Aramid Carbon, they are not actually talking about different substances. Regardless of the color of the dye used for the Aramid material, the actual compound used is the same regardless of which name they use. However, the Aramid that Xiom uses, despite being the same chemical compound as the one Butterfly uses, there are still differences in playing characteristics and how they feel because different companies weave and treat the compound slightly differently.
You could compare this to the fact that a Primorac Off-, a Tibhar Stratus Power Wood and an OSP Virtuoso have the same exact wood ply construction (Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba) and they all feel quite different because the three companies treat the wood differently, use different gluing processes and different thicknesses of each ply.
But from a technical standpoint the chemical compound referred to with the name "Aramid Carbon" and the name "Arylate Carbon", are not actually different substances. They are the same substance which is just being given a different name. Zephalium and Zylon: Same thing. I had a guy who is part of blade design from one of the TT companies give me that information.
says
ok, I will go back and make sure you have access.
Be...
Well-Known Member
Yes, I suspect the way each ply is glued makes a difference. But then there is weight, the way the handle is shaped, the way the wings are shaped, many things like that. Also, do they do something to the outer ply, like UV light, to change its hardness? At the end of the day, the only way to know for sure if you will like a blade is to play with it.
With that said, people can take it from me, if they like Butterfly ALC blades, there is a very strong likelihood that they will like the Donic True Carbon. That likelihood is lower for things like Baum Espirit or Xiom Stradivarius (based on my personal experience hitting with those blades0. You might like them but they are not quite as close. I suspect but don't have direct first hand experience that the Tibhar Drinkhall blade is pretty much a Viscaria clone also.
With that said, people can take it from me, if they like Butterfly ALC blades, there is a very strong likelihood that they will like the Donic True Carbon. That likelihood is lower for things like Baum Espirit or Xiom Stradivarius (based on my personal experience hitting with those blades0. You might like them but they are not quite as close. I suspect but don't have direct first hand experience that the Tibhar Drinkhall blade is pretty much a Viscaria clone also.
says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
From the standpoint of what the OP was asking at the start of this thread, this is really the most relevant post.
Wow. This is actually quite interesting. I was under the impression that Aramid is SIMILAR but not the SAME as Arylate, from
http://stervinou.net/ttbdb/lexik.php
which seems to indicate a distinguishable difference between the two. PRobably the difference would be unnoticable for a mere mortal like me...?
says
ok, I will go back and make sure you have access.
Be...
Well-Known Member
Actually, I think k they are not the same but share many properties. Arylate is the name Btfly uses for Vectran fiber. It is similar but not identical to aramid fibers like Kevlar. Found this decription of different fibers on a site for sailmakers. Very useful site with links to manufacturers. Also mentions Zylon
http://www.doylesails.com/design/fiber.html
Also, I just learned that the companies that make the fibers don't make the weaves (for example, the arylate-carbon weave). The weaving technology is different and requires specialized machines. Other companies like this one do that:
http://netcomposites.com/guide-tools/guide/reinforcements/woven-fabrics/
And this one.
http://www.gueth-wolf.de/sub/gb/pro...843438&name=Hybrid-fabric-carbon---Vectran%AE
Not only that, but the weaves come in all sorts of variations (like plain, twill etc. etc.) with different weave densities, fiber ratios and orientations etc. etc. I had no idea it was this complicated, but not surprised when I think about it for a second.
http://www.doylesails.com/design/fiber.html
Also, I just learned that the companies that make the fibers don't make the weaves (for example, the arylate-carbon weave). The weaving technology is different and requires specialized machines. Other companies like this one do that:
http://netcomposites.com/guide-tools/guide/reinforcements/woven-fabrics/
And this one.
http://www.gueth-wolf.de/sub/gb/pro...843438&name=Hybrid-fabric-carbon---Vectran%AE
Not only that, but the weaves come in all sorts of variations (like plain, twill etc. etc.) with different weave densities, fiber ratios and orientations etc. etc. I had no idea it was this complicated, but not surprised when I think about it for a second.
Last edited:
says
ok, I will go back and make sure you have access.
Be...
Well-Known Member
One last thing I should mention. Vectran manufacturer frequently mentions its vibration absorbing property on their web pages.
This user has no status.
If you guys talk about the used fibres there is one thing that is most of the time forgotten. The fibres are used in table tennis as fibre reinforced plastic which means they are used in a epoxy matrix. This epoxy matrix adds very much to the destrinct playing characteristics.
Furthermore most of the times you read about the characteristics of the fibres, they are describing the characteristics of the fibres in the direction of the fibre. But in table tennis blades the force is directed perpendicular to the fibres.
Furthermore most of the times you read about the characteristics of the fibres, they are describing the characteristics of the fibres in the direction of the fibre. But in table tennis blades the force is directed perpendicular to the fibres.
Similar threads
