Homemade table tennis blade

bobpuls · Oct 1, 2017

Hi Ninja... have a look onto this site... they just got beautiful Black limba in the shop
https://veneer-world.com/en/B2C/Veneers/BlackLimba
next mount i will get some of this veneers so keep something for me... ;-)
This will be jing jang blade as hell

GinjaNinja · Oct 1, 2017

bobpuls said:
Hi Ninja... have a look onto this site... they just got beautiful Black limba in the shop
https://veneer-world.com/en/B2C/Veneers/BlackLimba
next mount i will get some of this veneers so keep something for me... ;-)
This will be jing jang blade as hell

Thanks Bob - black limba is quite easy to get in the Uk, what is difficult is getting anything thicker than 0.6mm. Hence why I use limba substitutes such as fir or pine as I can get these in thicknesses of 0.8 or 0.9mm making it really good for medial ply. I can get spruce in 0.8mm but it's expensive.

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 1, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
You have to be very careful when varnishing the handle, it has to be very subtle....I suppose it ends up more of a sealant than a varnish.

Okay. I think I have felt a very light coat. It was only one coat though. I could live with that. But I still didn’t really liked that it masked the feel of the naked wood.

For me, the OSP handles feel better than any of the other handles I have tried.

In the end I am sure people get used to whatever handle their blade has. But I guess I would have to feel any of those handles and play with it for a while to see how I like it.

The blades and the handles do look beautiful though.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

GinjaNinja · Oct 1, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
Okay. I think I have felt a very light coat. It was only one coat though. I could live with that. But I still didn’t really liked that it masked the feel of the naked wood.

For me, the OSP handles feel better than any of the other handles I have tried.

In the end I am sure people get used to whatever handle their blade has. But I guess I would have to feel any of those handles and play with it for a while to see how I like it.

The blades and the handles do look beautiful though.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

I've had a few people request that I leave the handle completely natural with no varnish, which is fine with me, I am happy to give people what they want. When I saw them recently the handle had become a bit dirty and the lovely wood somewhat less beautiful as a result. They weren't bothered in the slightest but I couldn't help thinking about all my hard work designing and making it! Life would be so dull if we all liked the same thing and had the same priorities.

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 1, 2017

With good, natural wood, the age, wear, sweat and dirt can give character.

I think this handle looks better than it did when new:

No question that it has been in battle and has some dings. But because the wood is decent quality, the oil from the sweat just gently colored it.

And that looks much better than those mass produced handles that look shiny and colorful when new and then the color fades and they start looking grey.

I should say that is about 2.5 years of play and sweat. Because the wood in the handle is decent, it looks quite good despite being clearly warn.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

GinjaNinja · Oct 1, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
With good, natural wood, the age, wear, sweat and dirt can give character.

I think this handle looks better than it did when new:

No question that it has been in battle and has some dings. But because the wood is decent quality, the oil from the sweat just gently colored it.

And that looks much better than those mass produced handles that look shiny and colorful when new and then the color fades and they start looking grey.

I should say that is about 2.5 years of play and sweat. Because the wood in the handle is decent, it looks quite good despite being clearly warn.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

That's the beauty of really high quality wood. I am sure that's walnut which is a beautiful wood that ages really well. It does look great but there's a part of me thinking - a light sanding and a touch of white spirit and it will be like new! Sorry...........

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 1, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
That's the beauty of really high quality wood. I am sure that's walnut which is a beautiful wood that ages really well. It does look great but there's a part of me thinking - a light sanding and a touch of white spirit and it will be like new! Sorry...........

Hahaha.

You are not going to pretty up one of my favorite weapons. Just like I didn’t let the dentist put a cap on my chipped front tooth when I was 17. Proof I had been in a real battle....wasn’t it!

Hahaha.

Okay, you can do that to another OSP blade. But I am worried that cleaning it may make my blade not work as well for me. The special feeling and character seems to come from that and the dings along the edge. [emoji2]

And there is no way anyone will put sealant on my handle. [emoji2]

I use this one now.

But I have not had it for long enough for it to show the signs of battle. Hopefully it get some of those when I am done with work today.

I have to admit, even though this handle is that soft wood I was talking about, this handle feels very, very good.

But the one of the coolest things on the OSP handle is this:

I do really like that brass tag and how they burned as they added it. Not really sure how they do it. But it is a nice touch. I bet you guys (you, bob, MDP) would be able to make something like that if you wanted to though.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

GinjaNinja · Oct 1, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
Hahaha.

You are not going to pretty up one of my favorite weapons. Just like I didn’t let the dentist put a cap on my chipped front tooth when I was 17. Proof I had been in a real battle....wasn’t it!

Hahaha.

Okay, you can do that to another OSP blade. But I am worried that cleaning it may make my blade not work as well for me. The special feeling and character seems to come from that and the dings along the edge. [emoji2]

And there is no way anyone will put sealant on my handle. [emoji2]

I use this one now.

But I have not had it for long enough for it to show the signs of battle. Hopefully it get some of those when I am done with work today.

I have to admit, even though this handle is that soft wood I was talking about, this handle feels very, very good.

But the one of the coolest things on the OSP handle is this:

I do really like that brass tag and how they burned as they added it. Not really sure how they do it. But it is a nice touch. I bet you guys (you, bob, MDP) would be able to make something like that if you wanted to though.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Maybe you could go for the "Into the Badlands' approach and add a tally mark for every match or battle you've won. That way you could still have a perfect set of teeth and a pristine handle!

On a more serious note, I really like the design of Nexy blades. The Rubicon is a beautiful looking blade, understated but classy.

http://nexyttstore.com/blade/502-rubicon.html for anyone who hasn't seen it.

tropical · Oct 1, 2017

Hey Ninja .. I think you should seriously think about adding YOUR signature on the blade's handle. I like to have something as memory from original maker. It is a bit special that way even it doesn't make me play better

UpSideDownCarl · Oct 1, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
Thanks Bob - black limba is quite easy to get in the Uk, what is difficult is getting anything thicker than 0.6mm. Hence why I use limba substitutes such as fir or pine as I can get these in thicknesses of 0.8 or 0.9mm making it really good for medial ply. I can get spruce in 0.8mm but it's expensive.

By the way, what does it feel like with Limba top ply, Fir or Pine under it and a standard core like Ayous or Kiri?

What speed ranges would you be able to create with a 5 ply blade that was about 5.6mm thick and about 151x158mm head size?

Oh, and I like what tropical just said which was part of why I showed the brass Palatinus tag. Not bad to have a “personal signature” on the blades you make. Doesn’t really matter what. Something that lets people know who the artist is in your own unique way. [emoji2]

The TTDaily blade making crew does really make some beautiful art while making top quality blades.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

bobpuls · Oct 2, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
By the way, what does it feel like with Limba top ply, Fir or Pine under it and a standard core like Ayous or Kiri?

What speed ranges would you be able to create with a 5 ply blade that was about 5.6mm thick and about 151x158mm head size?

It would be from all to off
It all depends mostly on the core wood and connection to the second layer wood ... here is the rebound membrane defined, (thickness and density is the main factor) and which type of glue is used .

GinjaNinja · Oct 2, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
By the way, what does it feel like with Limba top ply, Fir or Pine under it and a standard core like Ayous or Kiri?

What speed ranges would you be able to create with a 5 ply blade that was about 5.6mm thick and about 151x158mm head size?

Oh, and I like what tropical just said which was part of why I showed the brass Palatinus tag. Not bad to have a “personal signature” on the blades you make. Doesn’t really matter what. Something that lets people know who the artist is in your own unique way. [emoji2]

The TTDaily blade making crew does really make some beautiful art while making top quality blades.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

You'd get something around all plus to off minus with 5 ply and 5.6mm. To reduce the speed you'd perhaps look at ayous as a medial or to increase a thicker sheet of spruce taking it up to 5.8 or 5.9mm. Alternatively you can play around with the core thickness. I tend to find that you need a thicker Kiri core than ayous. I frequently use a 4mm core for kiri but that would be perhaps a bit thick for ayous - it all depends what the player is looking for. Obviously the thicker the blade the stiffer it tends to be. Frequently I have used a thick piece kiri at 90 degrees to gain more flex - this has worked really well. I'm not aware of anyone doing this but I may be completely wrong.

As for the feel, it's probably easiest to take a quote from tropical on his ayous-fir-limba blade - 'Your blade feels much better than mass production blades'.

I also think this is a lot to do with the glue, perhaps even more so than the veneer.

As for 'personal signature', it's something that I've looked into but this is a hobby for me, albeit one I take seriously. So buying expensive machinery needs plenty of fore thought. As with using carbon it's on my list for the future.

Simas · Oct 2, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
As for 'personal signature', it's something that I've looked into but this is a hobby for me, albeit one I take seriously. So buying expensive machinery needs plenty of fore thought. As with using carbon it's on my list for the future.

I am pretty sure you can outsource engraving to some local specialized shop. For example it could be possible to do in some gift shops. Some time ago I did a custom engraving on the silver spoon for a very reasonable price.

Or you could order some custom badges and put it on the end part or at the bottom of the handle. It would look really high end

bobpuls · Oct 2, 2017

Simas said:
I am pretty sure you can outsource engraving to some local specialized shop. For example it could be possible to do in some gift shops. Some time ago I did a custom engraving on the silver spoon for a very reasonable price.

Or you could order some custom badges and put it on the end part or at the bottom of the handle. It would look really high end

Yes
I`m also outsourcing the engraving process to friend of mine ...
You can`t do all and own every type of machinery .

GinjaNinja · Oct 2, 2017

Simas said:
I am pretty sure you can outsource engraving to some local specialized shop. For example it could be possible to do in some gift shops. Some time ago I did a custom engraving on the silver spoon for a very reasonable price.

Or you could order some custom badges and put it on the end part or at the bottom of the handle. It would look really high end

Good point, definitely food for thought.

GinjaNinja · Nov 4, 2017

I thought it was worthwhile feeding back on the tests that have been done on the hide glue blades I've recently made.
Can I point out that this was not completed using any scientific based research methodology but during a few training sessions and practice matches so please consider this my subjective and personal findings! Similar rubbers where used on all the blades - Tibhar Genius mainly.

I've made five blades with hide glue:

Blade 1 - Kiri - Mahogany - Walnut - off

Blade 2 - Kiri - ash - ash - all/all+

Blade 3 - Kiri - ayous - mahogany - off

Blade 4 - ayous - fir - limba - all+/off-. This has an experimental anatomic handle, which turned out Ok.

Blade 5 - Ayous - spruce - walnut - picture to follow! off-

Here's what I found, first from a blade maker's perspective:
Good points
1) Great bond, probably better than any other glue I've used and this includes PVA, PU and Epoxy.
2) Reversible - I think we all know this one. However, very useful. I had a slight issue with a spot where I must have missed the glue, I took a hairdryer, heated it up and pushed the glue underneath in place and it worked perfectly.
3) Easier than most glue types to clean up
4) The glue is quite light in weight. As it's water based it evaporates leaving a really good bond but light. I would estimate around 2 or 3g lighter for a standard blade than most glue types. Similar to PVA in weight.

Bad points:
1) It needs plenty of effort to work with. You have to soak the pearls the night before, it needs to be heated slowly and kept at temperature. You also need to get the water to glue ratio spot on too.
2) You need the right equipment. I'm lucky as I managed to get an old double boiler glue pot and this helped tremendously.
3) Not all hide glues are the same - make sure you get high quality luthier's glue. Some require different water ratios too and they don't always come with that information.
4) You have to make a new batch every time. I kept one batch that I had left over and after 4/5 days mould spots appeared. Maybe storing in the fridge may help but it does have a slightly unpleasant odour so my wife wasn't too keen!

How do they play? Three other players were involved in the testing:
1) The feel appears to be the key selling point of hide glue blades and this came out with my blades too. It's certainly softer. There are some vibrations but they appear to be quite muted and certainly not unpleasant in any way. I have found feel to be very personal. One player absolutely loved the feel and another felt it was Ok, nothing special.
2) I would suggest it's slightly slower that the harder glues such as PU and Epoxy and this would tie in with the softer feel.
3) It's fantastic in the short game. Pushes and flicks are great and I (and others) felt they had complete control and accuracy here.
4) There is an extra gear to be found especially in the walnut outer blades. When trying to finish a point there is some extra speed to support
5) Great for looping. The glue is quite elastic and allows for better flex than many other glue types resulting in blades with great looping capabilities.

In summary, hide glue is time consuming to use but not unpleasant, I like the fact it's a natural product but in needs care and attention - i can see why hide glue blades are more expensive, the glue is cheap but the time needed is much greater.

For me, there are two types of player who will enjoy this type of blade:

1) Controlled loopers who attack but aren't trying to kill every ball. Here you need the offensive style blades - the walnut outers above.
2) Those who like to control the opponent through the short game - those who like to push a lot but like to attack when the ball 'pops up'. The example would be the ash or limba blades above.

If you're game is power-based and you rely on smashing, flat hitting etc then I personally wouldn't recommend a hide glue blade. Obviously this all depends on what rubbers you use.

I do plan to make a off+ hide glue blade using harder outers however I'm now working with a TTD member experimenting with carbon blades which is a different approach with different challenges.

bobpuls · Nov 4, 2017

This is gold ... Thanks

langel · Nov 4, 2017

GinjaNinja said:
I thought it was worthwhile feeding back on the tests that have been done on the hide glue blades I've recently made.
Can I point out that this was not completed using any scientific based research methodology but during a few training sessions and practice matches so please consider this my subjective and personal findings! Similar rubbers where used on all the blades - Tibhar Genius mainly.

I've made five blades with hide glue:

Blade 1 - Kiri - Mahogany - Walnut - off
View attachment 14594

Blade 2 - Kiri - ash - ash - all/all+

View attachment 14595

Blade 3 - Kiri - ayous - mahogany - off
View attachment 14596

Blade 4 - ayous - fir - limba - all+/off-. This has an experimental anatomic handle, which turned out Ok.

View attachment 14597

Blade 5 - Ayous - spruce - walnut - picture to follow! off-

Here's what I found, first from a blade maker's perspective:
Good points
1) Great bond, probably better than any other glue I've used and this includes PVA, PU and Epoxy.
2) Reversible - I think we all know this one. However, very useful. I had a slight issue with a spot where I must have missed the glue, I took a hairdryer, heated it up and pushed the glue underneath in place and it worked perfectly.
3) Easier than most glue types to clean up
4) The glue is quite light in weight. As it's water based it evaporates leaving a really good bond but light. I would estimate around 2 or 3g lighter for a standard blade than most glue types. Similar to PVA in weight.

Bad points:
1) It needs plenty of effort to work with. You have to soak the pearls the night before, it needs to be heated slowly and kept at temperature. You also need to get the water to glue ratio spot on too.
2) You need the right equipment. I'm lucky as I managed to get an old double boiler glue pot and this helped tremendously.
3) Not all hide glues are the same - make sure you get high quality luthier's glue. Some require different water ratios too and they don't always come with that information.
4) You have to make a new batch every time. I kept one batch that I had left over and after 4/5 days mould spots appeared. Maybe storing in the fridge may help but it does have a slightly unpleasant odour so my wife wasn't too keen!

How do they play? Three other players were involved in the testing:
1) The feel appears to be the key selling point of hide glue blades and this came out with my blades too. It's certainly softer. There are some vibrations but they appear to be quite muted and certainly not unpleasant in any way. I have found feel to be very personal. One player absolutely loved the feel and another felt it was Ok, nothing special.
2) I would suggest it's slightly slower that the harder glues such as PU and Epoxy and this would tie in with the softer feel.
3) It's fantastic in the short game. Pushes and flicks are great and I (and others) felt they had complete control and accuracy here.
4) There is an extra gear to be found especially in the walnut outer blades. When trying to finish a point there is some extra speed to support
5) Great for looping. The glue is quite elastic and allows for better flex than many other glue types resulting in blades with great looping capabilities.

In summary, hide glue is time consuming to use but not unpleasant, I like the fact it's a natural product but in needs care and attention - i can see why hide glue blades are more expensive, the glue is cheap but the time needed is much greater.

For me, there are two types of player who will enjoy this type of blade:

1) Controlled loopers who attack but aren't trying to kill every ball. Here you need the offensive style blades - the walnut outers above.
2) Those who like to control the opponent through the short game - those who like to push a lot but like to attack when the ball 'pops up'. The example would be the ash or limba blades above.

If you're game is power-based and you rely on smashing, flat hitting etc then I personally wouldn't recommend a hide glue blade. Obviously this all depends on what rubbers you use.

I do plan to make a off+ hide glue blade using harder outers however I'm now working with a TTD member experimenting with carbon blades which is a different approach with different challenges.

I'm glad that you've had a quest in natural glue and I'm happy that you feel good with this.
Some pages behind in this thread I've asked the question about using natural glue, I don't know have you mentioned it.
As for me I use a blade with a natural glue too, and I'm really happy with it, observing most of the conclusions you have made the same way.

shinshiro · Nov 4, 2017

Great post GinjaNinja, this is a really good information. And your handle making habilities know are better than ever!

GinjaNinja · Nov 4, 2017

langel said:
I'm glad that you've had a quest in natural glue and I'm happy that you feel good with this.
Some pages behind in this thread I've asked the question about using natural glue, I don't know have you mentioned it.
As for me I use a blade with a natural glue too, and I'm really happy with it, observing most of the conclusions you have made the same way.

I've tried looking for that post, I seem to remember it but can't find it. Did you compare different glues with suggestions for what works best. I'd be very interested in your thoughts. Sorry i can't find the post!

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