Coaching adults vs coaching kids

says The sticky bit is stuck.
says The sticky bit is stuck.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2017
2,764
2,607
8,135
Read 8 reviews
Kids are still developing basic motor skills. At an early age, our neural system is more flexible, more agile, and neural pathways are formed more easily. When training the young, you make room for the quick development they offer.

Over 15-20 (it depends) that development slows. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks..."

I'm humbly training a few club members, some of them 70+ that have a life of table tennis behind them. Defenders, most of them. They are very reliable, move quite well, but none of them will ever get the hang of brush looping a long backspin ball. I can make them go through the moves -- have them loosely swinging their arms, bringing it up, using legs, waist and upper body movement. All that, they will do. Yet when behind a table and faced with a ball at the pace of the game, well... that's like watching "Star Trek: First Contact" without the "First Contact" part.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2016
107
89
335
Adults = brain full of data, very low brain elasticity/plasticity compared to kids => You have to psych them out, get into their brains through trial and error (if you have a better way please propose) evaluate their strengths weaknesses and learning abilities and eventually create an approach that you believe is the best.

Kids = zero data, super duper brain elasticity, the teacher is god because they are taught so .

Definitely, in most occasions, its easier to teach young kids the basics no doubt about that (but then again, a kid with no talent at all maybe harder to teach than a talented adult, rare occasion but it happens ).

When it comes to polishing the overall attributes of the player to reach a semipro or pro level then its definitely a matter of good communication in both occasions.

The hardest thing for me is to persuade a player about what is best for him/her, especially when he/she believes otherwise. Kids are easier and learn faster, their brains are blank.

An adult with a "bad" habbit needs to erase it and start from scratch , but first you need to convince him to erase it and you have to be sure (which means lots of time "Wasted" on trial and error tests) about what your training/communication approach will be for the player to evolve. I dont find it surprising that good coaches damaged adult players. When I returned to TT after 15 years break I got much worse through training because I was listening to every advice on technique and rubber from everyone, didnt have the necessary experience to filter which advise is good or not.

So a great factor is the player's self awareness on his playing strengths and weaknesses. A talented kid with super duper FH has almost 0 self awareness, most of them cant actually explain/grasp WHY their FH is so good. And you also have guys with crappy body mechanics that think copying ma long is easy and even more funny they actually convinced themselves to believe that they need this kind of FH, but the truth is they want that kind of FH because its flashy.

Coaching adults is way harder in my experience, but also way more rewarding in terms of self affirmation. I feel like I can control a giant puppet when things go as expected/planned but the dissappointment of a wrong approach/advice is also very frustrating because all the hard work has gone into the trash can and at least for me is very tiresome because you must always reassess and re evaluate your thought process to adapt to the player's needs
completely agree...currently a 10 year old is picking up a few things from me...and he learns so quickly probably because of his mind completely clean of any techniques/flawed strokes etc. In addition a few adults are also trying to learn a bit from me (although I am not their coach), and it is so much difficult to correct their minor/major flaws. Some of them are so adamant (intentionally?) that they only play a rally or two with recommended grip/stance/hitting position and then goes back to their earlier one. I found that to correct their errors I have to make stuffs up (other than TT), e.g. there is a PhD student who only hits any shot (topspin, counter, flat hits) by moving her arm by an inch or two. After numerous failed attempt to tell her the technique and mechanics behind it, I finally asked her how is your PhD going and if she is angry at her PhD supervisor. And bingo, her anger towards her supervisor made her swing her arm much more. To go even further I told her she would hit "him" harder if her swing is longer, starting from sides rather than in front of her body. We practiced 20 minutes of flat hitting and counters and it seems it was working. I only could think of it after reading this thread. So thanks a ton guys.

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
May 2015
3,238
3,924
27,424
Read 5 reviews
It's a good thing nobody ever tried to "fix" Eric Bogan!

Some coaches i know would say the same about Thomas Keinath. His technique sometimes doesn't look very schoolbook-like, 'cause he stands up straight very much. He has been working with the best coaches. The same that developed Players like Christian Dreher, Jörg Rosskopf, Timo Boll, Patrick Franziska and a few more, but neither Hampl nor anybody else ever fixed that issue. Maybe because of Thommy's shot quality or winning tactics.
Now when he coaches adult players at our club he also doesn't corrects the technique very much but rather helps on other things and the people seem to value that a lot and the MOST important point: they really got MUCH better....
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Feb 2012
2,010
1,441
4,714
Read 1 reviews
Some coaches i know would say the same about Thomas Keinath. His technique sometimes doesn't look very schoolbook-like, 'cause he stands up straight very much. He has been working with the best coaches. The same that developed Players like Christian Dreher, Jörg Rosskopf, Timo Boll, Patrick Franziska and a few more, but neither Hampl nor anybody else ever fixed that issue. Maybe because of Thommy's shot quality or winning tactics.
Now when he coaches adult players at our club he also doesn't corrects the technique very much but rather helps on other things and the people seem to value that a lot and the MOST important point: they really got MUCH better....

what other things im interested to know please write some examples? I used to believe keinath is a joke when I first saw him but after watching lots of his games I realized how good he was especially in the BH side
 
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
what other things im interested to know please write some examples? I used to believe keinath is a joke when I first saw him but after watching lots of his games I realized how good he was especially in the BH side

Keinath stands up straight but he is crazy quick. I met him in Houston and can see also why he would be a really good coach. Another guy with some quirks was Schlager. He always looked a bit stiff. But he won a world championship with it. Go back a little further in time, you saw some strange looking top players more often.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,647
18,239
45,706
Read 17 reviews
Keinath stands up straight but he is crazy quick. I met him in Houston and can see also why he would be a really good coach. Another guy with some quirks was Schlager. He always looked a bit stiff. But he won a world championship with it. Go back a little further in time, you saw some strange looking top players more often.


Too many CNT Euro clones as juniors but without the athleticism. The real issue right now is really that the best athletes go into more lucrative sports.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2016
1,883
1,584
3,808
Also, can trying to fix every possible flaw in stroke mechanics in an adult player be a really good used of time, or might it be better to focus on some other things?

This is very interesting! Should you correct the technique or make they play as good as they can with their current technique? personally i like to try to correct the technique, but what is correct and what is wrong?
No one plays the same. I asked a coach at the best High school for tabletennis and he thought it would be better to get them to play as they could with their current technique. Maybe the reasoning was that alot of players quit when they get older and he wanted them to become as good as possible in the closest future. I have also had the last Swedish national coach as a coach and he liked to correct technique. But he was also really interested in playing styles and thought that you did not need to be able to play all strokes perfect. More important to be good at some strokes and make a playing style from that.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,867
13,316
30,557
Read 27 reviews
Suga D said:
...and the MOST important point: they really got MUCH better....

Yup, that is one huge indicator of the effectiveness of a TT coach. One unfortunately needs a bullshyt filter, but that metric makes it a lot easier to evaluate coaches.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jun 2015
2,205
547
2,850
A few years ago, a 9 year old Chinese kid was being coached by a regional level coach for shakehand grip. His father was a penholder with a good BH. In between lessons he challenged my table. He could not keep the ball on the table yet. So rather than play him I decided to coach him. Within 15 minutes I had him keeping the ball on the table without any problems using topspin. His father was amazed. The kid was very smart and did exactly as I told him. After a little more work I had him hitting high balls for him. That amazed me.

Coaching adults, I first ask what sports did you play growing up and what was your skill level. Then what is their TT experience and what type of equipment have they used.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
This user has been banned.
Feb 2017
29
33
69
Some coaches i know would say the same about Thomas Keinath. His technique sometimes doesn't look very schoolbook-like, 'cause he stands up straight very much. He has been working with the best coaches. The same that developed Players like Christian Dreher, Jörg Rosskopf, Timo Boll, Patrick Franziska and a few more, but neither Hampl nor anybody else ever fixed that issue. Maybe because of Thommy's shot quality or winning tactics.
Now when he coaches adult players at our club he also doesn't corrects the technique very much but rather helps on other things and the people seem to value that a lot and the MOST important point: they really got MUCH better....

This Keinath guy makes for a great example to understand this topic. Watch this game here of him against a much more athletic player:
, and count the number of times Keinath was able to control shots to the corners vs his opponent. They aren't too different in level, but Keinath won by controlling position much better.

Is great technique essential to this control? No, but without some techniques for power he's limited to this kind of game, and not everyone can learn the touch and fine motor control either. Then imagine he had 20% more power at younger age, where he could have done.

The chinese coaches teach the way they do for a program designed to make the best players, and quickly. So it makes sense for people who can make that commitment. The physical technique they teach first is meant be a foundation, things that are hard to fix later which will limit you.

Because those things are hard to fix, many adults are limited where they are at, that's just reality. It doesn't make sense to start from the beginning, instead just do the best you can with the foundation they have. Same as employees who need to learn skills for practical work, the company isn't sending them back to academic classes. But no one can argue to dispense with school classes and train students same way in narrow applications as adults.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,647
18,239
45,706
Read 17 reviews
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,647
18,239
45,706
Read 17 reviews
What a strange argument from someone calling other people "semantics Nazi": https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...-Service-video&p=180001&viewfull=1#post180001

When two players have close sets, they "aren't too different in level".

I didn't originate the term "Semantics Nazi", AgentHex, and I was jesting when I made the statement. On the other hand, your definition of "aren't too different in level" would apply here, no? Or you were really jesting when you made your statement too?

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,647
18,239
45,706
Read 17 reviews
May be this will help in understanding what it means in pop culture

TTFrenzy actually used it in the post I was responding to. AgentHex is skilled at subtly changing the subject when he is wrong. My compatriot was doing much better than he deserved to for his level vs. Keinath, which makes sense given he was on home soil vs. Keinath. But even if not, he is not on Keinath's level.
 
Last edited:
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
Seinfeld.

(An American classic. If you are interested in American culture, there are a lot of episodes you need to watch).

The bald guy's character was named "George Costanza", one of the funniest losers in the history of American television. Famous for the line "it's not a lie if you believe it". One of the funniest episodes ever was when the male characters decided to have a contest to see who could go the longest without masturbating. George Costanza won.

Here is more: http://www.ranker.com/list/best-george-costanza-quotes/movie-and-tv-quotes
 
Last edited:
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,934
10,356
Read 8 reviews
I didn't originate the term "Semantics Nazi", AgentHex, and I was jesting when I made the statement. On the other hand, your definition of "aren't too different in level" would apply here, no? Or you were really jesting when you made your statement too?


I think we can safely say that the promising and stylish young guy who is currently the 8th best player in France is not at the same level as the guy who is overwhelmingly the best player in the world right now and arguably ever. I think we can consider whatever that argument was supposed to be about convincingly concluded by NL's posting of this video. Some people argue to sow discord and to derail threads, and not because they even believe their own arguments. And what that has to do with how one approaches coaching adults is a phvcking mystery -- which of course is intended by the person originally advancing them. Keinath was mentioned on this thread because a longtime member here with firsthand knowledge pointed out that he has had success coaching adults with a particular approach. (He was also for quite some time in the top 100 in the world, but that is kind of beside the point of this thread).
 
Last edited:
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,171
17,741
54,891
Read 11 reviews
What a strange argument from someone calling other people "semantics Nazi".

Explain this to me Tenergy05, did you actually read the exchange below:

....dont wanna be a semantics "nazi" but this serve....

You are a semantics Nazi.

hahahaha
ok!

Did you not get it? Because if you missed it, TTFrenzy got the joke. Wouldn't that tell you something?



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
Top