Coaching adults vs coaching kids

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This is very interesting! Should you correct the technique or make they play as good as they can with their current technique? personally i like to try to correct the technique, but what is correct and what is wrong?
No one plays the same. I asked a coach at the best High school for tabletennis and he thought it would be better to get them to play as they could with their current technique. Maybe the reasoning was that alot of players quit when they get older and he wanted them to become as good as possible in the closest future. I have also had the last Swedish national coach as a coach and he liked to correct technique. But he was also really interested in playing styles and thought that you did not need to be able to play all strokes perfect. More important to be good at some strokes and make a playing style from that.
Also, one has to keep in mind that there has been innovation in table tennis over the years, people finding "new" strokes and ways to play. Something that is thought to be the "proper" way to do something doesn't have to be the best way to do it, even if it might be the best known way.

Not correcting things that are seen as technical flaws might become the new proper way to do it in the future. An example of this is the Swedish ski jumper Jan Boklöv. His technique was seen as improper and he used to be gutted by the judges. Today almost all ski jumpers use his technique.
 
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I think semantics nazi applies here pretty well.

How would you say NextLevel's argument concerns anything in my post other than "argue to sow discord and to derail threads, and not because they even believe their own arguments." To help remind you, my post was about Keinath as a control & placement player and how that affects coaching.

I would also call attention to my earlier post: "But when they are criticized play the victim for more pages, then attack their new target." https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/...gle-of-rubbers&p=180166&viewfull=1#post180166


I think that "not that far apart in level" was a mis-characterization of the match - a player who has been in the top 100 and is still in the top 200 is not the same as a player ranked in the top 500 - Makanjuola is already 30. You write pretty cryptically, no offense, and it's nice to see your main point clarified. It makes sense to characterize Keinath at 39/40 as a control player. Maybe you could have stressed that you felt that his tactics were just better rather than alluding to their not being that far apart? I think Keinath was more than enough of a favorite to have multiple ways of winning and he likely picked the one he felt most comfortable executing at the precise time.

You have been banned from two other websites for being repeatedly rude and insulting moderators and members for "playing the victim" in the face of your comments. I guess to you, it comes as across as a reason to be "compliant" but some of us just see it as being good fellow citizens.
 
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Also, one has to keep in mind that there has been innovation in table tennis over the years, people finding "new" strokes and ways to play. Something that is thought to be the "proper" way to do something doesn't have to be the best way to do it, even if it might be the best known way.

Not correcting things that are seen as technical flaws might become the new proper way to do it in the future. An example of this is the Swedish ski jumper Jan Boklöv. His technique was seen as improper and he used to be gutted by the judges. Today almost all ski jumpers use his technique.

Yes. It's fun to see some of the old timers play (people trained in 60s and 70s) and see how effective their outdated technique can be against current players even with the age disparity.
 
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I think that "not that far apart in level" was a mis-characterization of the match - a player who has been in the top 100 and is still in the top 200 is not the same as a player ranked in the top 500 - Makanjuola is already 30. You write pretty cryptically, no offense, and it's nice to see your main point clarified. It makes sense to characterize Keinath at 39/40 as a control player. Maybe you could have stressed that you felt that his tactics were just better rather than alluding to their not being that far apart? I think Keinath was more than enough of a favorite to have multiple ways of winning and he likely picked the one he felt most comfortable executing at the precise time.

You have been banned from two other websites for being repeatedly rude and insulting moderators and members for "playing the victim" in the face of your comments. I guess to you, it comes as across as a reason to be "compliant" but some of us just see it as being good fellow citizens.

The ITTF rankings past 200 are not as accurate, and my post clearly wasn't about comparing levels of two players. But these facts are not so important when all the ridiculous person remarks and attacks here look to be from other people, against me. That much is clear above.
 
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The ITTF rankings past 200 are not as accurate, and my post clearly wasn't about comparing levels of two players. But these facts are not so important when all the ridiculous person remarks and attacks here look to be from other people, against me. That much is clear above.

The ITTF rankings past 200 may not be as accurate when ranking the relative order of players but they are pretty accurate for showing the overall level of a player. It is too rare to have genuine top 200 level players remain outside the top 200 for their entire careers as international players tend to be national team players and get the opportunities to play at a level commensurate to their capabilities (Makanjuola has never been on the first Nigerian national team). Regardless of how you slice it, there is a significant difference in the level of both players, whether you decide to acknowledge it or not and I gave you an example that showed that your basis for considering them on the same level was flawed. Is it too hard to just say that your example was wrong or inappropriate, even if besides your point?

So you meant you weren't attacking me in prior posts, and were just innocently commenting on my play and my health condition? Well, if people know who you are, then some of your posts attacking me on other threads become less mysterious, don't they? Why didn't you just identify yourself as AgentHex? Why pretend to be someone else without an agenda? You mean my issues are news to you who I am despite our history on prior forums? You mean you want to pretend that you are making comments about me without having any animosity towards me? I am surprised you didn't register as AgentHex. In any case, welcome to TTD. Hopefully, when we stop the pretense, we can move on to substantive conversations.

It's pretty weird to see you posting in response to Baal as if you have never debated with him either. Is this an attempt to start a new, nicer internet persona?
 
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explain this to me tenergy05, did you actually read the exchange below:







Did you not get it? Because if you missed it, ttfrenzy got the joke. Wouldn't that tell you something?



Sent from the subterranean workshop by telepathy

no soup for you ! Come next year!
 
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I currently coach three adults. One of them used to play as a junior in Russia though not to a high level. He worked with the other coaches in the club and settled on the club's former Asian pro. When the former pro travelled home on vacation, he worked with me in the interim. For some reason (that is me being modest), he preferred my approach and stuck with me after the coach returned. He is usually either extremely aggressive or extremely passive. The main thing I fixed for him was his block and it made him feel more comfortable in passive play. Now I am trying to get him to open and still hold out for the return. He usually goes all out on the opener but not with balls so powerful that they are in returnable at the 1800-2000 level, especially if he is made to move to play them. Part of his mindset comes from his work where he always gives his all as if he has one shot to get the job done. I told him we have to modify that for table tennis because at the higher levels, if you try to hit the ball past people, if they touch it, it will usually come back.

I also have a lady student with autoimmune issues like myself. I got her as a beginner and she has a pretty clean looking game, footwork issues aside. I tried to teach her to loop but I realized that was going to be a painful process so this year, I switched her to short pips and I am trying to see if getting her to hit with short pips will improve her game in the long run. I figure that even if she goes back to inverted, learning to hit the ball properly will help her. It's difficult to loop hard and consistently when your joints hurt.

Last paying student didn't have a coach for a while. He figured out a lot of stuff on his own to build on what his prior coaches had taught him so I am working with him to speed up his process as figuring out everything by yourself can take forever.

Coaching is a learning experience. Whenever I think if what a coach should do, I always go back to Samson Dubina on the difference between a coach and a hitting partner. Many coaches are mostly hitting partners. You have to be creative to make the learning take place the way you want it, even at the risk of causing the student temporary set backs. That's the nature of the sport sometimes.
 
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Also, one has to keep in mind that there has been innovation in table tennis over the years, people finding "new" strokes and ways to play. Something that is thought to be the "proper" way to do something doesn't have to be the best way to do it, even if it might be the best known way.

Not correcting things that are seen as technical flaws might become the new proper way to do it in the future. An example of this is the Swedish ski jumper Jan Boklöv. His technique was seen as improper and he used to be gutted by the judges. Today almost all ski jumpers use his technique.

I like this post a lot!!

I am a case in point, I was taught to play initially by coaches in Sweden as a kid in the 1970s. In terms of mechanics, coaches in the last several years have actually worked with me to un-learn some things I was specifically taught as a junior, but which are now obsolete. I have been able to make some of the changes. But not all. It is definitely hard for me to get the wrist motion that gives the most massive spin. My footwork is instinctively inefficient (not helped by age).

What we needed to do in the 1970s to loop a ball with slow blades, slower rubbers, and no speed glue was a bit different from what is required with an ALC blade with Tenergy 05, or speed-glued Bryce for that matter. Also people had just not thought that deeply about how to hit things more efficiently. Heavy 40 and 40+ balls sink faster, and they allow a lot better counterlooping right off the bounce, and there are things you can do with them offensively that you couldn't ever do with a 38mm ball because they would fly off the table. That means you need new footwork habits and even a different mindset now. Some of this is easier to learn than others. And if you look back at serving in the late 70s and early 80s, it is utterly primitive compared to what happens now. Things evolve.

It is very hard to change some of the things I do. I have tried and know it's just not going to happen. The best coaches have recognized that some of those things are "good enough". Other things I have picked up on easily.

One of the best players of my junior era was Dragutin Surbek, a strong monster of a looper (one of my heroes but in those days almost impossible to find videos). You wouldn't teach someone to loop like that now!! By contrast, his contemporary the late Kjell (Hammer) Johannson looks a lot more modern. Klampar, one of the first to hit really strong backhand loops, looks pretty stiff now. Stellan Berngtsson had the most modern looking footwork of that era IMHO (also one of the first guys to mostly serve short). Moving forward, if you can find videos of Waldner at 16, it still looks like an earlier era, but he looks more modern later, and he was a huge serving innovator. Gatien was one of the first to really counter right off the bounce with such power.

Players with older techniques can still be pretty good at an amateur level. But they are not going to make it into the top echelons. Kids, you teach them to do it the modern way. Adults? Yes, if they can. But sometimes they can't.
 
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Here is Surbek. Hard to find a longer video but you can see what I mean here.



Great finding, Baal.
In Surbek's later years he played for Reutlingen in the 2nd Bundesliga together with a friend of mine. Awesome guy.

I think OSPH will love you for that second vid.
 
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Suga, then you may like this old match between two of my heroes as a kid.


Watching those guys brings back memories (my dad took me to see a team match with those guys when I was a kid). But also amazing how much more effective modern strokes are. Look at how straight Alser was standing! Johansson's backhand, with the top of the blade pointing straight up, was how I was taught to do it. Nobody should do it that way now.

Part of the reason they are not attacking the terrible long serves is they are playing an exhibition and want to get into good points. I hadn't noticed it before, but Johansson's forehand looks very much like Persson's. Ahead of its time for sure.
 
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Which brings about the important question , has OSPH been benched by the "coach" we haven't seen him in a while ...
Great finding, Baal.
In Surbek's later years he played for Reutlingen in the 2nd Bundesliga together with a friend of mine. Awesome guy.

I think OSPH will love you for that second vid.
 
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Great finding, Baal.
In Surbek's later years he played for Reutlingen in the 2nd Bundesliga together with a friend of mine. Awesome guy.

I think OSPH will love you for that second vid.

Which brings about the important question , has OSPH been benched by the "coach" we haven't seen him in a while ...

Suga D had me check on OSPH a week or so ago. This reminds me that I don't think I got back to Suga D. OSPH's shoulder getting better but he has not been playing because when he does it bothers him again. I will send him a link to this page to see the old school matches. He will like that.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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I think OSPH will love you for that second vid.

Sorry Brother, last time Carl reached out to me, wanted to post a special shoutout to you but busy with work :-(

SPECIAL SHOUTOUT TO SUGA D!!

+21!!


THANK YOU SUGA D!!
 
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Which brings about the important question , has OSPH been benched by the "coach" we haven't seen him in a while ...

question, perhaps... 'important question' ... hardly! :)

THANK YOU TTMONSTER!!!

it's late, will update on daily chit chat thread tomorrow (if not busy with work, lately been busy :( )
 
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suga d had me check on osph a week or so ago. This reminds me that i don't think i got back to suga d. Osph's shoulder getting better but he has not been playing because when he does it bothers him again. I will send him a link to this page to see the old school matches. He will like that.


Sent from the subterranean workshop by telepathy

as always thank you carl! You are the best!!

You are the straw that stirs the drink that is ttdaily!!
 
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OSP sez I LUV it when a plan comes together... only if the shoulder will come together. :(

plan11.jpg
 
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