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  1. gmiller2233 is offline
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    #1

    All things service

    I've been thinking that it would be interesting to hear and useful to start a post about service where people could talk about different strategies, developments, or things that they have found effective when developing their service strategies or game. There is lots of good existing post regarding service but I have not seen one that talks about strategies more broadly. Topic could including all things serve related ranging from small technique improvements to serves strategies that people have found useful against when facing strengths types of players. For instance I would love to hear about strategies players have developed when playing someone with a very strong flip opener. Both what makes them uncomfortable personally and what successes they have found by at least slow them down.



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  2. sanavasaraja is offline
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    #2
    Things I like to always keep in mind:
    Deceptiveness over spin, placement over both.

    In a world in which everybody seems to be drugged by the maximum amount of spin, a deceptive empty no-spin ball is king. Play the ball very flat to an uncomfortable spot and youve got yourself a very save serve. Less is more. Too often have I myself gotten completely wrecked by people without any ability to even produce a fancy serve.

    On that note, I love opponents that always want to attack. I vary the sides where I serve to and the length and I vary the amount and type of spin, of which there doesnt have to be too much, deceptively. Trying to keep it completely random, scanning for opponents weaknesses over the course of the game. Mind games...! Maybe my opponents arent good enough, but I do get more points from them trying to attack me first than me actually attacking them.

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    #3
    For instance I would love to hear about strategies players have developed when playing someone with a very strong flip opener.
    A straightforward one is to serve to the side where they don't have a strong flip, especially with sidespin curving away. For example, if they have a good looking banana flip, it is good to serve to their wide forehand with side-back spin. Another thing is to make sure the ball just goes over the net very low. Which is not easy to do even in training, let alone in a match under pressure.

    For the brave ones an option is to serve long. Serving fast to the elbow works very well against folks with poor footwork. Another option is fast sidespin (possible with top- or back-) very wide, both sides. Not everybody can cover those well.

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    Last edited by Ilia Minkin; 02-20-2017 at 07:19 PM.

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    #4
    Thank me now

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    Why practice to become better when you can pretend to be better on a forum?

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    #5
    My second favorite service to use is a half chop fast long serve. It's deceptive and easy to perform. When my opponents try to loop, the ball falls over the table. When they block, the ball drops to the net and when they push it goes long which gives me the opportunity to open an attack. My favorite is a long side spin corner serve on the backhand side of the opponent.

    And sana is right. Placement above all.

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    #6
    i don't know why, but for some reason why seiya kishikawa and gao ning's serve aesthetics appeals to me...



    backspin or sidespin? I am trying to imitate this serve(s), and I think it works pretty good.

    I find that some serve motions come more naturally (to produce good spin) than others, eg. jun mizutani and samsonov forehand serve for me makes more spin than ma long or waldner style forehand serve strokes

    EDIT: serve stuff is around 2:18 in the vid

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    Last edited by doraemon; 02-21-2017 at 06:51 AM.

  7. Der_Echte is offline
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    #7
    I should let Carl, NL, or tt monster explain my serve philosophy and execution, I have written about it dozens of times as a server, but few have detailed it much as a receiver.

    I am interested in watching the discussion.

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    #8
    Placement and no spin is effectiv at times. Sometimes putting no spin gets a long no spin return to attack

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    #9
    This is very useful video ... but i`m not sure if it is presented from the best players ... because they are not Chinese (ass you can hear and read on their shirts ).

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    #10
    I have this theory that there are two main serve types big picture wise.

    Deceptive as one, and non-deceptive and "so much spin what are you going to do about it" as the other.

    I've seen good players who use both.

    While I prefer deceptive, because you're holding your bat close to your body and trying to hide... I mean almost hide your serve, you simply cannot get as much bat speed as if you're doing a full swing.

    So while I use deceptive 90% of the time right now, sooner or later your club mats (lets be honest the people you really want to beat) who you train with all the time start to learn your stuff. They've seen it a million times. There's no more tricking them. So in those cases, I think it's important to try to identify what they're not so good against and do the load it up with spin as much as possible and see how they can handle it.

    ... Haven't fully tested this but just thinking off the top of my head.

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  11. songdavid98 is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bobpuls
    This is very useful video ... but i`m not sure if it is presented from the best players ... because they are not Chinese (ass you can hear and read on their shirts ).
    I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they are Chinese.
    Just because they don't have a Chinese accent in their voice... ;sigh;
    You probably don't know what a Chinese name looks like either, because Han Xiao is Chinese.

    One more thing, just because they are Chinese does not mean they are reliable sources of information.
    ***************

    This is at the Lily Yip Table Tennis Center. Lily always gets very capable players to help coach the kids, so you can trust the information in the video.
    The coaches there are pretty much always at least 2400 USATT

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    Last edited by songdavid98; 02-21-2017 at 11:13 PM.
    Always go forward

  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    I should let Carl, NL, or tt monster explain my serve philosophy and execution, I have written about it dozens of times as a server, but few have detailed it much as a receiver.

    I am interested in watching the discussion.
    Goon Squad Productions presents the Der_Echte and NextLevel serving tutorial, video series. Learn to serve heavy backspin and then pull the rug out from under your opponent when you change your hand pressure and serve up heavy no spin instead.

    Use these and other tricks to catch the goon squad with their pants down on a seek and capture mission. And learn the ultimate secret for always winning your chicken and beer bets.

    All this and so much more in the Goon Squad's "Secrets of Serving" video series.

    Order your first video in the series right away and you will get "Serving Secrets of the Masters" featuring special appearances by Brett Clark, Dan the Man and Matt Hetherington as a bonus gift.


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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they are Chinese.
    Just because they don't have a Chinese accent in their voice... ;sigh;
    You probably don't know what a Chinese name looks like either, because Han Xiao is Chinese.

    One more thing, just because they are Chinese does not mean they are reliable sources of information.
    ***************

    This is at the Lily Yip Table Tennis Center. Lily always gets very capable players to help coach the kids, so you can trust the information in the video.
    The coaches there are pretty much always at least 2400 USATT
    Yes it was a joke... Something about the theme "China Secret technique reveals".
    And I now who they are... And i really appreciate their efforts. And I'm finding their lesson to be very helpful.

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    Last edited by bobpuls; 02-22-2017 at 03:02 AM.

  14. gmiller2233 is offline
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    #14

    All things service

    definitely not constructing the wheel or providing goonsquad level info here, but the Occasionally shift over to the center and serving a right to left (I will serve with a tomahawk and jab serve from here) that crosses the elbow has been effective and useful serve to mix in. Especially when playing backhand dominant players that likes to return with there backhand, or even when playing an old school looper that looks to push really sharp and hard in order to get a pushback that they can loop. Obvious the important thing here is the crossover and creating another possible decision and hopefully not a great angle while there are making the read. Lots of possibly ways to target the crossover I do different serves here but I have found a modest right to left ball with under center to mid long surprisingly effective. It's does not look that impressive really, you won't stop and say wow But when you add up the crossover, direction and placement surprising its been an effective shot that giving a diffrent look playing against some ones strengths or desired response, while setting up future serves.

    NL has started a post resently on spinning the serve less. There some really helpful serve philosophy there. I stated it there and won't repeat it all but for some time I have focused less on maxing out spin and more on placement and deception, most of the time anyway. This has helped my game quite a bit in different ways ranging from consistency, to deception ( my starting point is more neutral and Im able think about where I'm touching and the following through more) and with more predictable returns for 3 and 5 ball development.

    I also really like the jab serve short to the forehand (right hand to right handed player). After practicing for some time it's pretty easy to disguise the spin and the short top spin goes out quite a bit. Brett Clark disguises this serve so well when I first got the his Tt edge app I couldn't see the difference at all. Another benefit at a mid lel play anyway ( I'm not seeing mi lin's fh flip) but the forehand flip is a shot that's visually exposed and if im actively looking for it, the direction or placement can often can be read which has lead to nice counter opp's, easy third balls. This is been a useful development especially sense I can't really do a reverse pendulum effectively do to pore flexibility in the shoulder, and I don't really like my attempts to do a top out of tomahawk it's just to attackable. and for me unless I'm practicing the th a bunch it can be tricky to serve as short as i like too.

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    Last edited by gmiller2233; 02-23-2017 at 07:11 PM.

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    #15
    To low rating player like me (1900 USTAA) serving contributes a lot to my game, but I think it also took time from me from practicing more footwork or other techniques.
    I have seen a guy used to be 2700 (and now only 2500 as he approached 50's) never won a point by serving. He served enough to not net opponent have a good return, then develop a 3rd or 5th ball attack or get into long rally. I can't even return his simple 3rd ball backhand flip regardless how strong I return his serve.
    I really think a good player must know how to do with the 3rd and 5th ball after serving. Some people have a very good serve but only learn their good serves are good only for much lower rating folks and are bad against high rating folks.

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  16. Der_Echte is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tropical
    To low rating player like me (1900 USTAA) serving contributes a lot to my game, but I think it also took time from me from practicing more footwork or other techniques.
    I have seen a guy used to be 2700 (and now only 2500 as he approached 50's) never won a point by serving. He served enough to not net opponent have a good return, then develop a 3rd or 5th ball attack or get into long rally. I can't even return his simple 3rd ball backhand flip regardless how strong I return his serve.
    I really think a good player must know how to do with the 3rd and 5th ball after serving. Some people have a very good serve but only learn their good serves are good only for much lower rating folks and are bad against high rating folks.
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa

    for 10 screens.

    1900 USATT rating on WEST or EAST coast among older adults is usually a true 2000+ USATT level (1650-1700 TTR in good ole Deutschland) not really a low level, VERY FEW achieve that level. YES, it isn't much compared to the top elite level, but it is almost top 10 percent.

    Yet you did it and it is something to be proud of and for others to see at a minimum to understand its consequence. (Especially if you started late)

    This is a high enough level to play almost blindfolded vs the average club level median player and still win giving away 4 point handicap after drinking 4 beerz in 30 minutes prior to matchtime.

    Now as much as I agree with you on you example vs the elite player you mention, I still must stress the importance of showing heavy and varying it with the right placement to prevent attacks or at least make them predictable at that level.

    Personally, I give fits to many way above my level on serves. my approach is so different and so are my whip mechanics.

    Obviously I have a lot going on (deficiencies) to justify my rating being only slightly above yours. I simply have a professional disagreement over philosophy and application.

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    #17
    In EVERY venue I attend, I spend EXTRA time trying to show other players a progressive approach to acquiring the touch and impact point to serve short heavy on demand. I go out of my way.

    WHY ???

    Bogeyhunter took TEN MINUTES with my sorry ass (1400s USATT rec player at the time) to shpw me the principles to serve short underspin heavy and how to change it.

    Of corse it took my sorry azz a full year just to get over 80% consistent, but it was a start and enough to make me 1600 level right away.(without ANY match significant match practice or players around my level.

    Wouldn't EVERYONE want to gain TWO FULL LEVELS in one year with just 3 minutes of work per day relaxed easy ????????

    You can do it !!!!! ... and likely to do it WAY SOONER than it took me.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gmiller2233
    Brett Clark disguises this serve so well when I first got the his Tt edge app I couldn't see the difference at all.
    Haha I still can't read it by watching the contact point! I can do this with most other serves in TTEdge, but not this one. I can read Brett's punch by watching the follow through, by watching the contact -- no way.

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin
    Haha I still can't read it by watching the contact point! I can do this with most other serves in TTEdge, but not this one. I can read Brett's punch by watching the follow through, by watching the contact -- no way.

    You aren't playing the app enough and you are focusing on the wrong things. Always focus on the contact. Eventually, even if you don't think you are seeing it, you will. It gets slower with exposure. It's like your brain builds out the systems required to see everything if you give it a chance to. Don't let your current impression of how good you are stop you from playing it at least 15 minutes everyday for not much more.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
    hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa

    for 10 screens.

    1900 USATT rating on WEST or EAST coast among older adults is usually a true 2000+ USATT level (1650-1700 TTR in good ole Deutschland) not really a low level, VERY FEW achieve that level. YES, it isn't much compared to the top elite level, but it is almost top 10 percent.

    Yet you did it and it is something to be proud of and for others to see at a minimum to understand its consequence. (Especially if you started late)

    This is a high enough level to play almost blindfolded vs the average club level median player and still win giving away 4 point handicap after drinking 4 beerz in 30 minutes prior to matchtime.

    Now as much as I agree with you on you example vs the elite player you mention, I still must stress the importance of showing heavy and varying it with the right placement to prevent attacks or at least make them predictable at that level.

    Personally, I give fits to many way above my level on serves. my approach is so different and so are my whip mechanics.

    Obviously I have a lot going on (deficiencies) to justify my rating being only slightly above yours. I simply have a professional disagreement over philosophy and application.
    People have a wrong perspective of table tennis sometimes. USATT 1900 is well above average especially if you didn't start intense training as a kid. People don't think about how long it takes to get there and think that it is a cakewalk. People who are above 1900 in China usually got some decent formal training.

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