All things service

says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
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ttps,

I am certainly a believer in real heavy ASAP, but it is the disguised variations that make me money, the heavy underspin is important to make the opponent believe a certain motion will be a heavy ball. The same over-aggressive ones who can flip the light ball, do have problems with the heavy ball, then also when I pull out carpet. The heavy serves are investment funds and the long balls I get from the dead serves are capital gains/interest.

Points I win from opponent error on serve are a form of FREE LUNCH.
 
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You are exactly right, returning a serve is not merely put the ball back on table. Like I said before, one must be able to push, chop, return long short ... you name it. But then a good player must be able to attack 3rd ball and rally. Your experience may be different but I beg to differ.

A good player is supposed to be able to do anything well. That's not the point. My point is that getting a weak return off a server is a requirement of a good serve. The third ball is strong against weak returns. Good returns shut down third ball and are easy vs bad serves. You can't consistently get third ball opportunities at your level without good serves. Players who can third ball behind bad serves are playing people who return their serves badly.
 
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So here is my serve secret sauce video - this change took my backspin serve from good to consistent point scorer. Raises the spin on your serve significantly. Sometimes I feel guilty sharing this since a tip like this is paid content on TTEdge, but I know Brett wouldn't mind and I have learned that even when I show people these things, some people still think it is trivial or not important or can't get the most out of it.

 
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This is very good.. More whippy but I am struggling to forget my previous action. The whip action seems okay on its own but I just can't co-ordinate it with my ball toss. It's like I went back to level zero or -1 :)

So here is my serve secret sauce video - this change took my backspin serve from good to consistent point scorer. Raises the spin on your serve significantly. Sometimes I feel guilty sharing this since a tip like this is paid content on TTEdge, but I know Brett wouldn't mind and I have learned that even when I show people these things, some people still think it is trivial or not important or can't get the most out of it.

 
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This is very good.. More whippy but I am struggling to forget my previous action. The whip action seems okay on its own but I just can't co-ordinate it with my ball toss. It's like I went back to level zero or -1 :)

I spent about 3 months (by my estimate) rebuilding the timing of my serve at Brett's request. I tried earlier but gave up and then came back to it seriously last year. I had to treat it like learning a new serve. So your issues are typical in my experience. You just have to look at the related TTEdge timing exercises and decide whether it is worth it.
 
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I spent about 3 months (by my estimate) rebuilding the timing of my serve at Brett's request. I tried earlier but gave up and then came back to it seriously last year. I had to treat it like learning a new serve. So your issues are typical in my experience. You just have to look at the related TTEdge timing exercises and decide whether it is worth it.

Thank you. Glad to know it's not just me. Should renew my membership to watch the timing exercises.
 
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I was just a little curious what people thoughts are on changing where you contact the ball on a straight under spin serve?
Directly under, under your sides slightly, or under up the front a bit (like a ghost serve). I do play with this and I find it effective, but to be honest I'm not sure if its just the lel competition I often see, or the fact that (even the better players I see regularly anyway) don't seem to work on Service or return as much.
I would be interested in hearing in hearing if people use this as a part of their strategy and what benefits they find if so.
I know this is a bigger possible conversation when you factor variations of side under, no spin etc. I just thought I would introduce the topic straight under spin for clarity sake.


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says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
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It is a good question and you contact on different parts to make the ball do different things.

In General, for short underspin, I contact bottom of ball with tip pointed down some for sidespin.

On my no spin, at impact, blade is open 30 degrees or so, but follow through is smooth/fast, so it looks like underspin contact.
 
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I was just a little curious what people thoughts are on changing where you contact the ball on a straight under spin serve?
Directly under, under your sides slightly, or under up the front a bit (like a ghost serve). I do play with this and I find it effective, but to be honest I'm not sure if its just the lel competition I often see, or the fact that (even the better players I see regularly anyway) don't seem to work on Service or return as much.
I would be interested in hearing in hearing if people use this as a part of their strategy and what benefits they find if so.
I know this is a bigger possible conversation when you factor variations of side under, no spin etc. I just thought I would introduce the topic straight under spin for clarity sake.


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If you record your serves from the POV of the receiver, which is important to do, the key is to look for the heaviest deceptive motion you can disguise and sell as things other than heavy underspin. For each individual, with their wrist speed and flexibility, that may vary. Practicing contacting the bottom front is ideal as it is a contact point that most people find counter intuitive, but unless you do it like a pendulum serve sometimes (the one Schlager discusses in his famous video where he shows some Hopes candidates how to disguise spin) and with high toss, it is hard to disguise as backspin and topspin.

I serve backspin and no-spin in a variety of ways with varying degrees so I don't have baked in technique, except on my heaviest backspin serve.
 
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I was just a little curious what people thoughts are on changing where you contact the ball on a straight under spin serve?
Directly under, under your sides slightly, or under up the front a bit (like a ghost serve). I do play with this and I find it effective, but to be honest I'm not sure if its just the lel competition I often see, or the fact that (even the better players I see regularly anyway) don't seem to work on Service or return as much.
I would be interested in hearing in hearing if people use this as a part of their strategy and what benefits they find if so.
I know this is a bigger possible conversation when you factor variations of side under, no spin etc. I just thought I would introduce the topic straight under spin for clarity sake.

I generally try to serve by hitting the bottom of the ball. I can still serve heavy underspin and no spin with it.

I heard that it is harder to see the direction your paddle is going in when the paddle is flat.
If hit the back of the ball, apparently, it is easier to see what direction your paddle moved in, and thus easier to read what spin your opponent put on the ball.

Sometimes I change it up and do serve by hitting the back of the ball. But in that case, that's for serving long and fast.
 
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I appreciate hearing the different experiences. I need to do some pov videos. I don't record myself enough. when I have it's always been informative. What's happening is not always what I think is happening:). a bit slammed not as much Tt time as I would like but I'll try to make that happen over the next few weeks.
I know a lot of pros do under spin with the tip pointing down some Brett, Waldner come to mind. But for now on my standard under spin Serve i hold it relevantly flat but it's angled slightly different at different points through the swing and I try to come up the front a bit and finish with the point of the blade facing forward. I settled on this because it seems like the best way for me to repeat the same mechanics/blade path but contact it at different places. If I toss the ball back a bit in my stance I can under right to left, slightly more forward toss straight under, or left to right depending on how I release through the ball. I can also releas for a top spin and contact it towards the handle and for a no spin. In theory I keep the look similar (that's my intent anyway). I'll record at some point and maybe get some feedback.

I seem to be able to generate a bit more spin if I contact the ball with the blade pointing to the side not forward through contact. I do this from time to time. When I do this I don't worry about deception quite as much I just try to spin and contact low to the to the table. Exception being a no spin a bit like Der echte describe (mine being less effective I'm sure). This need work, if there watching I'm not sure how well I sell it but does make opponents respond to a different ball. And I mostly try contact under the ball but if The opponent has say weak forehand I may contact more my side every now and again with contact point for those close to table height.
Der echte I heard you and Carl talk about changing your grip for different results spin no spin etc. can you point me to a link where you talk about that.




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gmiller, I talk about stuff like that so much I wouldn't be able to find it in 2 minutes.

I link you to a Korean club whose owner did a multi-shoot pic series of me serving. This is maybe 3 years after I got back from Iraq and had practiced serving (mostly fail the first 6 months) for 3 minutes a day on a rinky-dink table for a year. I am in purple jersey in the pic series.

http://cafe438.daum.net/_c21_/album_read?grpid=1NO8n&fldid=CS1I&page=5&prev_page=6&firstbbsdepth=0000azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0000Lzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0000yzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=60&edge=&listnum=15

or easier link

http://cafe.daum.net/skytak/CS1I/60

It is my basic underspin short serve. You can see my modified LOOSE grip and how flat my blade angle starts and impacts. You can see this stuff in any slow mo vid of yourself.

You can also look at the threads where NL has recorded matches and try to slow-mo it on youtube.

One gets good spin from loose grip and efficient whip + impact. Important to contact bottom opf ball for short serve. I have a way to make no-spin by impact at 30 degree angle and quickly smoothly make blade angle flat and snap through after I impact to fake out opponent and sell it. Sometimes different follow through for LULZ.
 
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Thank you Der echte! I'm completely buried with work/deadline. But totally looking forward to taking some time to view these.


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I nice lecture on service. He gives a simple tip that I've found very useful. 5:20 mark he talked about contact point Changing on a pendulum serve. front of the racket for backspin, back of the racket for top with the same serve motion/path. It's not new idea and pretty simple and I of course new about same swing diffrent contact points for different results ( And already contact a no spin closer the the handle) but I was tossing the ball in slightly different places to do what he talkes about ( more forward for top etc). His way of thinking about it is effective and easy to repeat. I was needlessly complicating things.


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gmiller, at this point, I would not worry about trying to contact on different points on the bat, always go for middle to upper part of sweet spot on bat to be consistent. Some players are great at impacting ball on tip of bat, most are not and it leads to pissing away precious points.

What one does in serving is use a smooth motion fluid and impact the BALL at different points on the ball, that is much easier to control. Once a player can get the right touch (think grip pressure and CHANGING grip pressure at impact) then the majic happens easier.
 
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Does anybody here have a good, fast down the line serve? If so, what do you like to do to execute it?

My situation might be a little different given I'm a left handed penholder but my main setup is based on the HeZhiWen style of point.

Main Option: (side/top & side/back variations)
OutWide.JPG

Option Two: The down the line change up if they cheat over too far.

Here's where I'd like to change how I do this. As it stands now, trying to do a pendulum serve down the line seems most natural for me. However, the ball tends to break like this (note: it doesn't break this much but you get the idea. It's just how powerpoint was drawing it up)
downTheLine.JPG

What I don't like is the ball is curving back into the backhand for the right handed player. I would think ideally I would like this serve to go straight to make them reach more and I would also think that a straight down the line serve could also be faster. Should I go pure topspin down the line. Dead fast down the line?

Does anybody have this particular serve down or maybe a video of someone demonstrating it? Thanks.

HeZhiWen by the way curves his down the line serve also with his standard pendulum motion. He's just 10x better at making it faster than I am. So it can be done. Probably just a practice thing. But I thought I'd get the ball rolling on ideas on this serve.

I think it's important to note this is on the short length of the table. So the margin for error is greater if going too fast.

Perhaps I should experiment with reverse pendulum short to have the ball break away from them. IDK. It's an idea.
 
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