Modern game too repetitive?

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I think Shuki was just trying to put a positive perspective on things. Often that can be useful.

You're probably right. But it's not that easy to keep a positive mindframe on this topic if you've been through all these pretty arbitrary changes. From Red+Black rubber colour rule to coaching during the game. Not saying all has been bad. Some were better, some less, but after all this time it just has become quite tiresome.
[Emoji6]

Boogar said:
Shuki said:
I have no problems with any changes that have been made so far. The more I play, the more I enjoy to watch. So I enjoy watching professional matches more now than ever.
I'm with you shuki!
Since you seem to love this beautiful sport as much as i do, maybe we should talk about this in 20 years from now. It's quite likely that more arbitrary changes gonna come.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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You're probably right. But it's not that easy to keep a positive mindframe on this topic if you've been through all these pretty arbitrary changes. From Red+Black rubber colour rule to coaching during the game. Not saying all has been bad. Some were better, some less, but after all this time it just has become quite tiresome.
[Emoji6]


Since you seem to love this beautiful sport as much as i do, maybe we should talk about this in 20 years from now. It's quite likely that more arbitrary changes gonna come.

Totally unfortunate how bumbling the ITTF has been. Totally true. It is sad how they have made so many mistakes in how they have changed the rules and messed with the equipment. But it is kind of cool how well players have adapted in spite of it.

And I really do hope that a real player whose agenda has to do with what will be best for the sport and the players over all like Saive will win the ITTF Presidency. If anyone can help the sport, he is at the top of my list.


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The changes were annoying yes, but I think there have been two benefits to the changes that some people have pointed out but others have underestimated.

The first is that because the influence of spin is slightly reduced, though it might also be a result of internet spreading of proper technique, the time it takes to become a decent player is much shorter. It used to take almost 7-8 years for players to start thinking about dealing with higher levels of spin and deception from 2500 players and that is before anything else. Now, that time can be as short as 3 years for some players. It might be improved technique, but I think the ball changes have a positive role.

Some of these complaints sound similar to what goes on in tennis. Some people say that it is sad that the serve and volley game is dead and that everyone is now a baseliner. Sure. Maybe it was speed glue, maybe it was the development of the improved backhand techniques, but I don't blame people for finding the best approaches to playing and applying them ruthlessly. The changes have probably hurt certain styles, but people were predicting the deaths of many styles a long time ago.
 
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Totally unfortunate how bumbling the ITTF has been. Totally true. It is sad how they have made so many mistakes in how they have changed the rules and messed with the equipment. But it is kind of cool how well players have adapted in spite of it.

And I really do hope that a real player whose agenda has to do with what will be best for the sport and the players over all like Saive will win the ITTF Presidency. If anyone can help the sport, he is at the top of my list.


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Damn, spot on Carl. As I was reading your comment I remembered that kasparov and karpov both tried to be elected presidents in the world chess federation but failed to antagonize the existing "regime". If it was for the people to vote then Saive would definitely be elected

Sports should stop being the businesses of bureacrats and people with fancy costumes, athletes should run the show
 
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There are few things to consider. Is it boring because a)We miss good old days b)China is too strong c)Play style is too monotonous?

a)We miss good old days
This happens a lot to a player who spent his/her competitive days in different rules but doesn't have time now to adjust to new rules. 21pts/38mm/bodyhide rule is too serve dominant, it'll be very unpopular for both players/spectators if the rule is reverted now.

b)China too strong
Thing is, it's not their fault at all. Sure, I also find it boring to see yet another all Chinese semi final or quarter finalists filled out with Chinese and Chinese expats. But it's not god's given ability and they deserve every bit of success they get. Most of the technical innovation come from China and table tennis would be totaly different today if China wasn't playing it.

c)Play style is too monotonous
Well, we've been watching European championships for ages where they have one stlye and odd choppers and still find it great. More to the point, there are much more variation in play styles in women's TT but is it more entertaining?
 
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There are few things to consider. Is it boring because a)We miss good old days b)China is too strong c)Play style is too monotonous?

a)We miss good old days
This happens a lot to a player who spent his/her competitive days in different rules but doesn't have time now to adjust to new rules. 21pts/38mm/bodyhide rule is too serve dominant, it'll be very unpopular for both players/spectators if the rule is reverted now.

b)China too strong
Thing is, it's not their fault at all. Sure, I also find it boring to see yet another all Chinese semi final or quarter finalists filled out with Chinese and Chinese expats. But it's not god's given ability and they deserve every bit of success they get. Most of the technical innovation come from China and table tennis would be totaly different today if China wasn't playing it.

c)Play style is too monotonous
Well, we've been watching European championships for ages where they have one stlye and odd choppers and still find it great. More to the point, there are much more variation in play styles in women's TT but is it more entertaining?
Thank you. I think you have discussed many of the important points people are mixing up.

Possibly, the biggest change was the banning of speed glue, but even before that, we were already seeing the beginning of the return of Chinese dominance. Then came the special generation of ML, ZJK and XX who were being touted as special even before they grew up as they managed to challenge the WH, WLQ and MLin generation before they were expected to be ready.

IF we had the technology that we had today back then, the most advanced techniques would have converged years ago. People were already predicting the death of choppers back in 1987, but you would never know it given how people talk today.

 
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Quite interesting that all these changes seem to be welcomed by so many.
Well i believe it´s a difference thinking about it from a distance and witnessing and feeling it live and direct.
And i believe there must be a reason that fun-tournaments with 38mm ball and many other "forbidden" things are still being held and visited by a few participants. I think it must be more than just for nostalgical reasons.
 
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People still play hard bat too. People still play sandpaper too. People still speedglue too. Everyone has nostalgia. Everyone says that the kids don't know the good music of past years.

I mean, today's game is in part a result of the phenomenal athletes playing it. The real problem is that there isn't enough money and sponsorship in the sport to allow everyone in the top 100 to be a winner, so people only focus on those at the very top.
 
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People also have to realize what took the variation out of the sport. It was basically the Chinese copying and perfecting European techniques. Many of the styles that disappeared were really styles that went away when the Chinese started playing like Europeans, just more efficiently.

I mean, if you want excitement, you can still go and watch the French - they still have the Ouaiches, Mattenets and Lebessons of this world playing TT at a high level. The convergence of technique would still have happened without the rule changes - it would just been a little slower as keeping the same ball and equipment would have allowed older players to maintain their advantages longer.
 
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Yeap I think NL is right about nostalgia, if you dont like the top competitive play and how "robotic" it is you can still watch european TT which has definitely more suspense.

Most western fans dont actually care about how robotic the game is right now in the top level, if europeans dominated then we wouldnt complain so much . Why not watch and enjoy CTTSL and the trials?

We can still watch and enjoy the game at the top level but this time we should watch the chinese .For me it was really exciting how lin gaoyuan and liang jingkun evolved this year but we relate more to european players.

As for championships in europe countries/champions league

The frenchies and germans are doing a great job promoting the sport and they have a schedule that is not (most of thetime) in same days/hours with football or basketball . Now polish championship is following the same pattern other countries should follow also

Most of the championships in Europe are held in weekends if Im not mistake which is not good.

Gionis in a greek interview said that both in France and Germany, people go to train after work, or send the kids to training, take a walk/coffee and after the training is finished the family stays to watch the match local champ or champions league which shows that they adapted the schedule to the needs of fans/players. Even pro B and pro C have fans watching
 
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ITTF makes rules to try to give other countries' players a chance and when the rules change China adapts first. Table tennis before was better because it gave players with non looping styles a chance. The amount of spin in table tennis is slowly decreasing. We went from 38 mm to 40 mm to 40+ and to DHS's spinless D40. Players who rely on spin like Xu Xin are suffering. It's like ITTF cares only about money and entertainment. The current president of the ITTF wasn't exactly a very experienced or professional table tennis player. The only players who benefited from the rule changes were Butterfly, DHS, Stiga, Nittaku etc. (I know they're not real players) Isn't spin supposed to be a major part of the game?
 
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.....to DHS's spinless D40.....

Aahaha... i first read "spineless"

The current president of the ITTF wasn't exactly a very experienced or professional table tennis player.

What´s this? Alternative Facts? That´s some big Bullsh*t you´re trying to spread here. Thomas Weikert still plays in the sixth highest league (Hessenliga, there is eight(!!!) lower leagues) in Germany and is probably WAAAAY BETTER than the average Joe lurking on the TTD forum. His TTR Rating is 1888(!!) equivalent to ca. 2300 USATT! Now you decide if that's good enough or not...

Pahh... not good.... *smdh*

http://wttv.click-tt.de/cgi-bin/Web...ub=1035&contestType=Herren&seasonName=2016/17
 
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Aahaha... i first read "spineless"



What´s this? Alternative Facts? That´s some big Bullsh*t you´re trying to spread here. Thomas Weikert still plays in the sixth highest league (Hessenliga, there is eight(!!!) lower leagues) in Germany and is probably WAAAAY BETTER than the average Joe lurking on the TTD forum. His TTR Rating is 1888(!!) equivalent to ca. 2300 USATT! Now you decide if that's good enough or not...

Pahh... not good.... *smdh*

http://wttv.click-tt.de/cgi-bin/Web...ub=1035&contestType=Herren&seasonName=2016/17

Well I don't read German and I never knew that he played at that level (not top level like Saive) 2300 USATT is not bad. Still what has he done to improve the game? If anything he made it worse. Instead of Table Tennis X which in my opinion is rubbish he should have tried to introduce something like Table Tennis Old where everyone plays with speed glue and 38 mm celluloid balls. All the rule changes have not improved the game. Even he could beat Ma Long he still isn't a very good president.
 
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You're mixing up things here. Those are two different things.
One is his playing ability, the other his work as a president of the ITTF.
But if you're not pleased with his work, then why not write him a letter instead of ranting on the internet and talking rubbish 'bout playing abilities when you obviously know nothing about them? I'm tending to believe that will lead to better results.
[Emoji6]
 
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1.Rule changes made TT "too repetitive"?
No. If we would still playing with 38mm ball, speed glued rubbers 21pt games, the players would perfect the styles anyway. It was just matter of time. It another question if these changes are good for TT or not.

2.Everyone plays the same style?
No. Two winged offensive style dominates the TT world, but nearly everyone does it in an unique way. Marcos Freitas is a two winged looper and Dimitrij Ovcharov also. They play the same way? Of course not! And Shibaev, Gauzy, Dyas, Boll, Mengel, Niwa, Yoshimura, Youngsik? All different.

3.Why are there so few defender?
There are choppers and lobbers. We are talking about the last 20 years and lobbing was not a recommended style even then. Ouaiche does it, Mattenet too.
Choppers: well, defenders have a disadvantage. Classical defence is only among the women. BUT: There is only a few coach who teach chopping. Even ex-choppers teach offensive table tennis. Because they see that offense is 'better' than defence. If chopping would have a strong basis in professional youth training and not just one or two player, I am sure that
we could find a lot more talented chopper, sooner or later even top 10 ones.

3.The chinese plays all the same?
Chinese are well known for that only the players with the possibly most perfect technique can reach good results. Due to their scientific support and very well organized training programs, they play more similar to each other than euro/etc. players. However the most of them is still different, look at ML, XX, ZJK, FB, LGY...

4.Different style= not boring?
No. Creativity is the key. Two chinese with similar style can play a very-very exiting match, while a match featuring a short pips hitter against a spinny looper can be boring.

5. XX's game is spin based so the new ball destroys him?
No. His opponents learned his patterns. I've wrote about that, so here I won't detail it.

6.Final thoughts:
Somehow I feel that there isn't as much good tournament. I really don't know what sucks, but I miss the mood of WTTCs during the 2013-15 period (I follow table TT since 2012 Olypics, that's why 2013). I've seen the olypics and last year's WTTC... well, there were good matches, but they didn't kept me hot.

Finally there is my favourite player, Kenta Matsudaira, who is one of the most creative players (and he still develops his game). This tribute also great to show how can clever players use the disadvantages of a FH based player:
 
I like Kenta's style a lot too. (I mainly serve tomahawk and I try to use his block when I can) However, His current ranking is 19 and I don't think he is going to go any higher. Creativity etc. is very good but to be top dog you have to have a looping style. If you look at the top 10 players almost all of them except Xu Xin and Vladmir Samsanov (his ranking is going to drop soon) have a looping style with the difference being the consistency, power, and spin of their game. At the recent Marvelous 12 tournament we saw arguably the top 12 players in the world looping and looping and nothing else. Bottom line is as of now if you want to try to be a Waldner or a Joo Sae Hyuk or even a Kenta Matsudaira don't expect become number 1.
 
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Whether the game would be more exciting to play and watch if we had old rules back is very much hypothetical and one that we're likely to have no conclusion(though, the discussion itself is very interesting).

One other reason that I can think of is that with the advent of ITTV and youtube, we get to watch a lot more games played by top players. I remember we used to only have old beaten up VHS of Worlds and maybe Olympics. Maybe we're watching too much TT?
 
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New ball, new ball, another new ball, then another new ball. Damn! Don't the ITTF official have any decency and know when to stop?

It is true that I don't find it exciting watching Chinese against the world. However, the 12 marvelous men event was very exciting. So it seems if the rest of the world can raise up their tt skill the game definitely is more interesting to watch.
 
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