Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

tropical · Mar 21, 2017

rainneverever said:
Here is a summary of the male CNT players (ranked within the top 50) against non-CNT players based on ITTF records (junior tournaments included, W.O/Inj/Dsq excluded). CNT has a 4-year plan for each Olympic Games. The core players for that 4-year period have more chances to play internationally than the others. Loss to a non-CNT player affects the evaluation inside the team; the players need to prove themselves with better and more stable performance as the major goal of CNT is to secure the champions.What do you see from the stats?

Removing the top 3 players, world table tennis competition would be more interesting and exciting to watch.

rainneverever · Mar 21, 2017

Changing of BH rubber is not that rare among top CNT players. Xu Xin changed; Liu Shiwen changed; Ma Long changed and Fan Zhendong changed and changed back. I think they are brave to change and they are smart to stick to the ones that really fit them.

It is Liu Guoliang who suggested Ma Long to change the BH rubber. Not some DHS sales person. In the TV show I posted in #43, Ma Long talked about it (19'30''-20'20''). Liu Guoliang had considered it for quite a while and he brought it up at the very moment when Ma Long felt down after losing World Cup in 2014. Ma Long said it might be the end of his career if the change did not work out (I think he exaggerated). And finally it worked.
With H3 BH rubber, Fan Zhendong beated Xu Xin (4:2) and almost beated Ma Long (3:4) in 2015 Pro Tour Grand finals. With T05 BH rubber, Fan Zhendong beated Xu Xin (4:2) and lost to Ma Long (2:4) in 2016 Pro Tour Grand finals. I am not saying H3 is as good as or even better than T05 for Fan Zhendong. He is more comfortable with T05 and he did play well with H3. Nothing wrong with experimenting when he can afford.

TTFrenzy · Mar 21, 2017

RidTheKid said:
CNT players get products presented from management and sponsors. Is there anyone who believes Ma Long surfs the internet for rubbers or reads equipment reviews on ttdb?

Why do you think FZD says he uses a Stiga blade?

Certainly the switch from T05 to H3 has helped ML become more consistent with his BH but seeing as his biggest competitors are BH oriented he would be stupid if he didn't put extra effort in his BH as well to be a complete player.

You both have a point NL sometimes takes opinions/conclusions too literally.

For a stroke to be perfect for your style you need both practice and the right equipment that suit you. I think it was carl who said that FZD didnt like H3 in BH so he switched back to T05. When you have the ability to test so many rubbers, practice comes first but you also have experiment with the company that sponsors you and try different types of rubbers with special attributes. At such level both are important

NextLevel · Mar 21, 2017

TTFrenzy said:
You both have a point NL sometimes takes opinions/conclusions too literally.

For a stroke to be perfect for your style you need both practice and the right equipment that suit you. I think it was carl who said that FZD didnt like H3 in BH so he switched back to T05. When you have the ability to test so many rubbers, practice comes first but you also have experiment with the company that sponsors you and try different types of rubbers with special attributes. At such level both are important

Again, the question remains the same - you think he wasn't doing extensive work to fix his backhand before the equipment change? This is what people who are taking your position are continuing to ignore.

RidTheKid · Mar 21, 2017

ML has always had a more fh gifted/oriented play style compared to his bh so I certainly believe he has required to put in extra hours to sharpen it whereas his fh comes more naturally.

I believe ML has used the past few years working overtime really honing his bh skills. Viewing older videos from 2009-2011 shows a clearly more inconsistent bh.

NextLevel said:
Again, the question remains the same - you think he wasn't doing extensive work to fix his backhand before the equipment change? This is what people who are taking your position are continuing to ignore.

NextLevel · Mar 21, 2017

RidTheKid said:
ML has always had a more fh gifted/oriented play style compared to his bh so I certainly believe he has required to put in extra hours to sharpen it whereas his fh comes more naturally.

I believe ML has used the past few years working overtime really honing his bh skills. Viewing older videos from 2009-2011 shows a clearly more inconsistent bh.

He wasn't using Hurricane then...

TTFrenzy · Mar 21, 2017

NextLevel said:
Again, the question remains the same - you think he wasn't doing extensive work to fix his backhand before the equipment change? This is what people who are taking your position are continuing to ignore.

I dont think ridthekid ignores anything, I myself said about how ma long practices every little detail in order to improve his BH and not only that. I just saw a misunderstanding between each other thats why I posted this , just like you did on my conversation with rainenenver

TTFrenzy · Mar 22, 2017

RidTheKid said:
ML has always had a more fh gifted/oriented play style compared to his bh so I certainly believe he has required to put in extra hours to sharpen it whereas his fh comes more naturally.

I believe ML has used the past few years working overtime really honing his bh skills. Viewing older videos from 2009-2011 shows a clearly more inconsistent bh.

Actually up to 2011 he rarely used that spinny BH over the table with full wrist and forearm action like ZJK or WH. He used an active/aggressive block or simple counterhit which was not enough and when he was feeling comfortable with the situation he tried to execute that BH.

rainneverever · Mar 22, 2017

In preparation for Olympic Games, the posters of the most competitive non-CNT players can be seen on the wall of the CNT training hall.
For example, 22 female non-CNT players were on the list of Rio 2016 women's singles.

For Rio 2016, 6 male non-CNT players were considered 1st-tier rivals: Timo Boll, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Chuang Chih Yuan, Vladimir Samsonov and Marcos Freitas. 11 2nd-tier included Wong Chun Ting and Jung Young Sik, and 10 3rd-tier included Liam Pitchford and Quadri Aruna. For London 2012, Timo Boll, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Joo Sae Hyuk and Chuang Chih Yuan were among the 1st-tier.

ITTF Head to Head records between CNT players and 1st-tier non-CNT players:

Player		Dimitrij Ovtcharov	Jun Mizutani	Chuang Chih Yuan	Vladimir Samsonov	Timo Boll	Marcos Freitas	Joo Sae Hyuk
	Age	28	27	35	40	36	28	37
Ma Long	28	14:0	13:0	13:2	7:5	12:3	4:0	15:2
Fan Zhendong	20	2:0	2:0	7:0	2:0	2:0	0:1	2:0
Xu Xin	27	6:1	12:1	7:1	5:2	4:1	3:0	5:0
Zhang Jike	29	5:3	6:0	2:3	5:0	5:2	3:0	6:2
Fang Bo	25	1:1	NA	1:0	NA	NA	0:1	NA
Yan An	24	1:1	2:1	3:1	NA	NA	3:0	1:1
Zhou Yu	24	NA	1:1	1:1	0:1	NA	NA	NA
Liang Jingkun	20	0:1	1:1	NA	0:1	NA	1:0	1:0
Lin Gaoyuan	22	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	1:0

drunix80 · Mar 22, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
I think there are three issues getting confused here. They are separate issues.

1) ZJK's technique and skill.
2) ZJK's injuries.
3) ZJK's attitude.

They are not the same.

1) ZJK's technique is top notch. If he is in form and healthy he is one of the top 2 CNT players which is actually why LGL has bent over backwards for him.

2) ZJK's injuries: are they real or not? I think some of them are real. But I think that his attitude does allow us to question some of the withdrawals from matches. Why have there been so many tournaments he entered and then withdrew in the middle with the injury.

There are so many stories of athletes who played through injuries and persevered. And there are many who had many injuries and did not play through them and missed games that ultimately hurt their whole team.

Here is a story: the New England Patriots (American Football team) had this quarterback who was a great talent and expected to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league. His name was Drew Bledsoe. The coach of the Patriots, Bill Belichick, decided he no longer wanted Bledsoe on the team. He was injured to often and this, Belichick felt, undermined his role as the leader of the offense. The press and the fans gave Belichick a lot of bad press for entertaining the idea of a change in quarterbacks.

So, against all the traditional opinions about how Bledsoe would be a hall of fame quarterback and one of the best ever, Belichick dropped Bledsoe in favor of a tough kid who had not proven himself yet and who nobody, except Belichick, thought was all that talented. That rookie quarterback was Tom Brady who will go down, for sure, as one of the best quarterbacks ever.

Brady played through injuries. Game in, game out. He is a tough player and the kind of quarterback you would want leading your team.

In TT things are different. But ZJK has not been the guy who plays through injuries, never quits and never lets people know how hurt he is.

Different people are different. My guess is that most of the injuries are real. But add them to ZJK's attitude and you have the makings of a problem.

But don't confuse his injuries and his attitude with his technique, skillz and abilities. The skillz, abilities and technique are there. But the health and the attitude may be a problem.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Although I am critical of ZJK's attitude , I am not sure why ZJK should retire when he is just 28. As far as I remember, Ma Lin/Wang Liqin/Wang Hao all played well into their 30s. ZJK needs to get some inspiration from Federer who took a break for injury and worked on his weaknesses during his time off and came back with a big bang. As they say, Form is temporary but class is permanent. There is no denying the fact ZJK is one of the best players of this decade.

Suga D · Mar 22, 2017

Here's his message for all the non-believers and hatahs
[Emoji12]

<iframe class="imgur-embed-iframe-pub imgur-embed-iframe-pub-vlemoFB-true-540" id="imgur-embed-iframe-pub-vlemoFB" src="https://imgur.com/vlemoFB/embed?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.co.uk%2Fforum%2Feditpost.php%3Fp%3D184676%26do%3Deditpost&w=540" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen="true" style="margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px; width: 540px; height: 500px;" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true"></iframe><script src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8" async=""></script>

RIPPER · Mar 22, 2017

Liking ma longs stats 125 out of 125 wow!!

Tony's Table Tennis · Mar 22, 2017

From the 3rd page, i jumped to the 6th

I like to comment on ZJK sleeping at tournaments.
This is true

Not because I say so, but because LGL says so

About ZJK not having the best technique - this is incorrect,
He has one of the best complete technique.
He has the warrior spirit, but the problem is he shows up sometimes, the other time he does not.

This has been a known problem for a long time and I think soon the "younger" players will replace a no show ZJK
ZJK is so much older now, I don't think he will come back as strong as when he was younger.
ZJK also admits he needs motivation

Sad but true
ZJK if fully motivated, could become Chinese number 1 of all time

tropical · Mar 22, 2017

Tony's Table Tennis said:
From the 3rd page, i jumped to the 6th
Sad but true
ZJK if fully motivated, could become Chinese number 1 of all time

I consider this comment as personal opinion, not fact. IF doesn't count and IF is very misleading. To me, my 2cents as well, regardless how much motivated ZJK is, he can never be the same like FZD let alone ML.

Tony's Table Tennis · Mar 22, 2017

tropical said:
I consider this comment as personal opinion, not fact. IF doesn't count and IF is very misleading. To me, my 2cents as well, regardless how much motivated ZJK is, he can never be the same like FZD let alone ML.

This is for the people who think ZJK doesn't have the technical or mental skills.
He started late, and left the playing field early and still managed to get a grand slam.

If he had a proper 10 years + as number 1, it would of been a different situation.
It is just that in between his ill discipline or attitude problem causes him to have no shows.

He is lucky to even make it back from luneng after is first drop.
If it wasn't for his coach, he wouldn't of even got a chance to get one of the grand slam medals
so as my personal opinion, he possess a lot technically, that is about it.

also the game now is more a chess game, than oppose to action game

tropical · Mar 22, 2017

Tony's Table Tennis said:
This is for the people who think ZJK doesn't have the technical or mental skills.
He started late, and left the playing field early
If he had a proper 10 year as number 1, it would of been a different situation.
It is just that inbetween his ill discipline or attitude problem causes him to have no shows.

He is lucky to even make it be from luneng after is first drop.
If it wasn't for his coach, he wouldn't of even got a chance to get one of the grand slam medals

I really like ZJK style (more than ML or FZD) but I do not think he can be #1 of all time. The way I see it is that ZJK is less motivated because he may be intimidated by ML, XX, others .. achievement. Now with FZD on the horizon he is even less motivated as he might think he can never beat such young talented kid as he is 28 now. If (I am using if here) these top 3 guys don't exist then he can be #1 for a while. But even so labeling him as #1 in China of all time is a very exaggerating comment.

TTFrenzy · Mar 22, 2017

tropical said:
I consider this comment as personal opinion, not fact. IF doesn't count and IF is very misleading. To me, my 2cents as well, regardless how much motivated ZJK is, he can never be the same like FZD let alone ML.

Define the "same" . FZD style seems like a copy of ZJK with more power but less variation

For me its pointless to compare ML and ZJK because they are so different both mentally and technique wise. In the end, a grand slam is a grand slam no matter how or when you get it .

tropical · Mar 22, 2017

TTFrenzy said:
Define the "same" . FZD style seems like a copy of ZJK with more power but less variation

For me its pointless to compare ML and ZJK because they are so different both mentally and technique wise. In the end, a grand slam is a grand slam no matter how or when you get it .

If you read the context clearly you'd understand what I meant without the need to define anything. "Same" means the same level of achievement. I only argue about ZJK could be #1 of all time if he is motivated.

ttmonster · Mar 22, 2017

I think this table clearly shows one fact , why LGL prefers to have Ma Long , Xu Xin and ZJK . They have an established history against foreign players and its easier for coaches to strategize against opponents. The rest of the team has yet to wrack up the number of wins these guys have to give the coaches confidence.

Now coming to the issue of focus there is no doubt that Ma Long is more focused and prepared than others , however, it used to be his downfall as well which he has now overcome , whether through alcohol or whatever , he has done it.

From the technical point of view, I remember LGL criticising ZJK's game as one dimensional and saying that there are some spins that ZJK did not understand as well as Ma Long . But I think ZJK has improved on that. His short game and the first three balls are better than anybody on the team.

From the perspective of attitude , my personal opinion is that for ZJK its a case of injury + motivation + attitude . Only the CNT coaches will know truly if ZJK has issues with attitude and if he indeed has a big issue there they would have thrown him out a long time back. From his generally sleepy demeanor its very hard to tell whether he is focusing from the outside , however in the recent past , especially after the recent injuries whenever he has played he has looked 100% motivated. The coaches will live in the present ...

Ultimately table tennis boils down to a game of real time problem solving , where Ma Long currently has an edge over others. However , when he faces a healthy ZJK it becomes a Federer vs Nadal equivalent , ZJK's strength ( backhand and defense ) matching up against Ma Long's weakness ( backhand ) , so its becomes very close.

rainneverever said:
In preparation for Olympic Games, the posters of the most competitive non-CNT players can be seen on the wall of the CNT training hall.
For example, 22 female non-CNT players were on the list of Rio 2016 women's singles.
View attachment 12549
For Rio 2016, 6 male non-CNT players were considered 1st-tier rivals: Timo Boll, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Chuang Chih Yuan, Vladimir Samsonov and Marcos Freitas. 11 2nd-tier included Wong Chun Ting and Jung Young Sik, and 10 3rd-tier included Liam Pitchford and Quadri Aruna. For London 2012, Timo Boll, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Joo Sae Hyuk and Chuang Chih Yuan were among the 1st-tier.

ITTF Head to Head records between CNT players and 1st-tier non-CNT players:

Player Dimitrij Ovtcharov Jun Mizutani Chuang Chih Yuan Vladimir Samsonov Timo Boll Marcos Freitas Joo Sae Hyuk
Age 28 27 35 40 36 28 37
Ma Long 28 14:0 13:0 13:2 7:5 12:3 4:0 15:2
Fan Zhendong 20 2:0 2:0 7:0 2:0 2:0 0:1 2:0
Xu Xin 27 6:1 12:1 7:1 5:2 4:1 3:0 5:0
Zhang Jike 29 5:3 6:0 2:3 5:0 5:2 3:0 6:2
Fang Bo 25 1:1 NA 1:0 NA NA 0:1 NA
Yan An 24 1:1 2:1 3:1 NA NA 3:0 1:1
Zhou Yu 24 NA 1:1 1:1 0:1 NA NA NA
Liang Jingkun 20 0:1 1:1 NA 0:1 NA 1:0 1:0
Lin Gaoyuan 22 NA NA NA NA NA NA 1:0

<tbody>
</tbody>

Tony's Table Tennis · Mar 22, 2017

tropical said:
I really like ZJK style (more than ML or FZD) but I do not think he can be #1 of all time. The way I see it is that ZJK is less motivated because he may be intimidated by ML, XX, others .. achievement. Now with FZD on the horizon he is even less motivated as he might think he can never beat such young talented kid as he is 28 now. If (I am using if here) these top 3 guys don't exist then he can be #1 for a while. But even so labeling him as #1 in China of all time is a very exaggerating comment.

ZJK has always been "less motivated" since a junior.
This is a overall problem for years, not just when he is in the A team, or because of FZD today.
Age is not a root cause. Look at the aging WLQ or Ma Lin, they still fight till retirement.
ZJK no show could possibly get worse.....

I won't be surprised if he doesn't make it Germany
Ma Long, XX, FZD, LGY and one more youngster

Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

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