Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

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Here is a summary of the male CNT players (ranked within the top 50) against non-CNT players based on ITTF records (junior tournaments included, W.O/Inj/Dsq excluded). CNT has a 4-year plan for each Olympic Games. The core players for that 4-year period have more chances to play internationally than the others. Loss to a non-CNT player affects the evaluation inside the team; the players need to prove themselves with better and more stable performance as the major goal of CNT is to secure the champions.What do you see from the stats? :rolleyes:

stats1cnt2017.jpg
 
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The recent stats:
PlayerAgeWR2013-2016(Rio period)2017-2020(Tokyo period)
TotalWinsLossesTotalWinsLosses
Ma Long2811251250440
Fan Zhendong2021521475330
Xu Xin2731591554110
Zhang Jike2941069610110
Fang Bo251041374330
Yan An2416756114660
Zhou Yu243132266110
Liang Jingkun2041786711990
Lin Gaoyuan22491293770

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The image on first post is a little bit small, do you have a bigger one?

And thanks for the info!
 
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FZD has not lost to any non-CNT player since Oct 2014.

2014 17th Asian Games FAN Zhendong(CHN) CHEN Feng ^ (SGP) 9/27/2014 Men's Teams Groups 2-3
2014 17th Asian Games FAN Zhendong (CHN) LI Hu ^ (SGP) 9/27/2014 Men's Teams Groups 2-3
GAC Group 2014 ITTF World Tour, Qatar Open (Super) FAN Zhendong (CHN) CHO Eonrae (KOR) 2/18/2014 Men's Singles R16 3-4
2013 Asian Championships FAN Zhendong (CHN) MATSUDAIRA Kenta (JPN) 6/30/2013 Men's Singles QF 0-3
GAC Group 2013 ITTF World Tour, Qatar Open (Super) FAN Zhendong (CHN) APOLONIA Tiago (POR) 2/20-24/2013 Men's Singles R32 0-4


FZD 5 loss? Someone could list them?
 
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I think it safe to say Zhang Jike dominated Wang Hao during 2011-2013. Based on ITTF H2H records, before 2011 Wang Hao won 4 out of 5 times against Zhang Jike, including 2010 World Cup. Since 2011, Zhang Jike won all 8 times when he met Wang Hao, which included finals of 4 "big" tournaments: 2 WTTC (2011 4-2; 2013 4-2), 1 Wold Cup (2011 4-2) and 1 Olympic Games (2012 4-1). They never met internationally after 2013.
Has Zhang Jike ever dominated all other players? Simply check out his H2H stats against Ma Long (6 vs 13 during the whole career, 2 vs 4 during 2011-2013) and Xu Xin (4 vs 5 during the whole career, 3 vs 2 during 2011-2013) and the answer will NOT be yes.
Let's consider the duration of being ranked #1 in ITTF world rankings.
# of total months# of consecutive months
Record56 (Wang Liqin)27 (Wang Hao, 2007/10-2009/12)
Ma Long5525 (2015/3-2017/3)
Xu Xin1612 (2014/3-2015/2)
Zhang Jike77(2012/6-2012/12)

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If we take a look at the ITTF World Tour Singles events, Zhang Jike has won 6 titles (1 in 2010, 1 in 2011, 2 in 2012, 1 in 2013 and 1 in 2016), fewer than those of Fan Zhendong (2 in 2013, 2 in 2014, 2 in 2015 and 2 in 2016). Xu Xin has won 11 World Tour titles and 2 Grand Finals (2012, 2013), while Ma Long 23 World Tour titles and 5 Grand Finals (2008, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2016).
What do you think about Zhang Jike's dominance?

Most dominating player in history? What was Zhang Jike's like in the lead up to London 2012?
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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One thing that people have to understand with Zhang Jike is that he was always one weird character.

He would show up to tournaments and look like he was about to fall asleep against guys who he did not feel were a serious threat. He would be down 0-2 and decide to play midway through the third game and still win 4-2.

Even in the WTTCs he won, against the worse players, he looked like he didn't really care. It was part of his bad, or if you want, bad boy, attitude.

He was consistently underwhelming until something big was on the line. And yet, going into the 2011 WTTCs he was WR#3. And he came out of the tournament WR#2.

If you look at his world ranking history, there are a few months where he is number 1. But really, not too many.

Here. Look at what happens in this match with Patrick Baum:


I mean, that is the quarter finals of the 2013 WTTC and he is 5 game points away from going down 1-2. And yet he wins the match 4-1.

And then look at what he did in the next round:


That is the semi-finals of the 2013 WTTC. Xu Xin was ranked #1 at the time and many people thought that the WTTC finals would be a showdown between XX and ML.

In the run-up to the 2013 WTTC ZJK looked particularly underwhelming. And in the 2013 WTTC, while ML and XX were racking up 4-0 blowouts vs the lower tier players, ZJK had several performances where he didn't really look that good until the match was on the line.

So, this is actually part of the enigma of ZJK. Was he a guy who got hot at the right time? Was the bad play an act?

You also have to remember that, in 2009, as ML was WR#1 or 2 depending on the month, I am not sure ZJK was even in the top 10 yet.

We also have to remember ZJK got kicked off the CNT and then was allowed back on. So, there were a couple of years where he did not get the CNT training regimen.



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I totally agree that Zhang Jike is a character and he had his time back then. But don't be fooled. He did not win some of the matches not because he did not care; simply because he was not that dominant, technically and mentally. What excuse can you find for his loss to Timo Boll in SF of team events in London 2012, only a few days after he became the Grand Slam? For CNT players and coaches, team events are way more important than singles; they don't afford to lose.

Zhang Jike was the training partner of Wang Hao and he won 4 big tournaments titles beating Wang Hao. He won only 1 champion in the whole year of 2014 (World Cup over Ma Long by a some margin and the famous banner story). He won 1 more champion, nationally and internationally, ever since Wang Hao retired in Dec 2014. The fact speaks.

If CNT players were kicked off to their province team, they could be back to CNT if they made to the QF of Chinese National Games(every 4 year) or National TT Championships (every year excluding the year of National Games) . For example, Li Ping, who currently represents Qatar, was kicked out of CNT in 2004. 8 months after, he got the 3rd place in National TTC and returned to CNT. In the case of Zhang Jike, he was kicked off in 2004. He did not made to QF in 2005 National Games (Gold: Wang Liqin, Silver: Wang Hao, Bronze: Ma Long) and he made to QF in 2006 National TTC (not made to SF) and went back to CNT. FYI, National Games are taken seriously by the athletes because they represent their provinces. In 2009 National Games, Gold went to Wang Hao, Silver to Ma Long and Bronze to Wang Liqin. In 2013 National Games, Gold went to Ma Long, Silver to Fan Zhendong, Bronze to Xu Xin. Zhang Jike did not make to SF in 2009 and 2013 National Games, representing his province Shandong.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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Rainman, you may have missed what I was saying.

ZJK never was someone who was always dominant. It was always hard to tell what was going on with him.

Was he so good he could beat anyone when he wanted? Or was he just on in those tournaments when it counted? We really can't know because of how hot and cold he was.


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My explanation of Zhang Jike's unstable performance is that his techniques/tactics are not good enough to secure an easy win. His fighting spirits and mental strengths sometimes helped him play 110% out of himself. Otherwise, it is so difficult to explain why he lost to Timo Boll in London 2012 and lost to Dimitrij Ovtcharov in Tokyo 2014 WTTC team events. Zhang Jike is known for playing better in big tournaments such as Olympic Games and WTTCs than small ones; shall we blame the format of BO5 not BO7 in team events? Representing his nation, dare he say that he did not care to fight? The fact is that, in 2010/2012/2014/2016 WTTC team events, he has never played the first position (ABC vs XYZ, A or X is the first position of each team, A and X will play the 4th match if needed) in the knock-out stages. Liu Guoliang just could not bet on him.

Rainman, you may have missed what I was saying.

ZJK never was someone who was always dominant. It was always hard to tell what was going on with him.

Was he so good he could beat anyone when he wanted? Or was he just on in those tournaments when it counted? We really can't know because of how hot and cold he was.


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ITTF Head to Head records:
Wang LiqinMa Lin Wang HaoMa LongFan ZhendongXu XinZhang Jike
Wang Liqin-
Ma Lin 12:13-
Wang Hao14:1110:16-
Ma Long7:311:411:12-
Fan ZhendongNANA3:01:10-
Xu Xin4:25:23:38:166:9-
Zhang Jike3:36:29:46:132:34:5-

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ITTF Head to Head records:
Ma LongFan ZhendongXu XinZhang JikeFang BoYan AnZhou Yu
Ma Long-
Fan Zhendong1:10-
Xu Xin8:166:9-
Zhang Jike6:132:34:5-
Fang Bo0:20:43:31:1-
Yan An0:32:52:52:32:1-
Zhou YuNA0:40:1NA1:0NA-

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says Spin and more spin.
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My explanation of Zhang Jike's unstable performance is that his techniques/tactics are not good enough to secure an easy win. His fighting spirits and mental strengths sometimes helped him play 110% out of himself. Otherwise, it is so difficult to explain why he lost to Timo Boll in London 2012 and lost to Dimitrij Ovtcharov in Tokyo 2014 WTTC team events. Zhang Jike is known for playing better in big tournaments such as Olympic Games and WTTCs than small ones; shall we blame the format of BO5 not BO7 in team events? Representing his nation, dare he say that he did not care to fight? The fact is that, in 2010/2012/2014/2016 WTTC team events, he has never played the first position (ABC vs XYZ, A or X is the first position of each team, A and X will play the 4th match if needed) in the knock-out stages. Liu Guoliang just could not bet on him.

I am not sure your logic follows. But we can agree to disagree. In 2015 in the China Trials ZJK, injured, beat Ma Long 5-1 in a best of 9. He lost one match to XX in that trials and tied for first with XX who also only lost one match.

But I am okay with us having different opinions. What do you think about this match? How did ML lose to Timo Bowl in an WTTC team event?


Especially after being up 2-0? Could it be that Timo Boll is actually pretty darn good?


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Clearly injured in the Summer Olynpics, how did ZJK play when he saw XX was struggling? With a bad back and having trouble moving, how did he do?

Personally, I don't really like ZJK because of how he shows up to tournaments and looks like he doesn't come to play so often. Playing with his eyes half closed like he is about to fall asleep. Not showing respect to players from other countries. Playing them as though he can beat them sleep walking.

But I can see how good his footwork is and his over the table technique. Not healthy, he is just pretty good. Fully healthy, he is the only guy who can really challenge Ma Long and have a chance of winning. Nobody else can in a tournament that means something. FZD will be there in another year or two. But he isn't quite there yet.

But it is an interesting perspective that ZJK's technique is bad but he gets hot anyway.


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Ma Long (22 years old) lost to Timo Boll (29 years old) in the final of 2010 WTTC team events (May 2010) by 2:3 (11:9, 11:8, 10:12, 5:11, 7:11). At that time, Ma Long was ranked #WR1 but had not proved himself yet in WTTC and World Cup; Timo Boll was ranked #WR3 and had a World Cup title.

Zhang Jike (24 years old) lost to Timo Boll (31 years old) in the semifinal of 2012 London Olymic Games team events (Jul 2012) by 1:3 (11-8, 8-11, 9-11, 11-8). At that time, Zhang Jike was ranked #WR1 holding the most recent WTTC and World Cup titles; Timo Boll was ranked #WR7.

Three questions: Which player is considered better, #WR1 without a world champion title in singles event or #WR1 with two world champion titles in singles events? Which Timo Boll has a better form, a 29-year-old in 2010 or a 31-year-old in 2012? Which loss is more unexpected, a #WR1 losing to a #WR3 by 2:3 or a #WR1 losing to a #WR7 by 1:3?

In the SFs and finals of "big" team events (Olympic Games, WTTC and World Cup), here summarizes ALL the losses of CNT players in the past 10 years.
Ma Long was beaten by Timo Boll (2:3) in the final of 2010 WTTC. Once.
Wang Hao was beaten by Dimitrij Ovtcharov (1:3) in the SF of 2009 World Cup. Once.
Zhang Jike was beaten by by Timo Boll (1:3) in the SF of 2012 Lodon Olympic Games, by Chen Chien-An (2:3) in the final of 2013 World Cup, and by Dimitrij Ovtcharov (0:3) in the final of 2014 WTTC. Three times.
Xu Xin was beaten by Jun Mizutani (2:3) in the final of 2016 Rio Olympic Games. Once.

Ma Long and Xu Xin's losses were in the deciding set, which suggests that they were not tough enough technically and/or tactically and/or mentally at that moment, when the opponents were on fire. Zhang Jike made to the deciding set once (against Chen Chien-An, #WR48 by then and Zhang Jike #WR3) and did not make to the deciding set twice. What do you think of his technical and/or tactical and/or mental toughness?
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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Ma Long (22 years old) lost to Timo Boll (29 years old) in the final of 2010 WTTC team events (May 2010) by 2:3 (11:9, 11:8, 10:12, 5:11, 7:11). At that time, Ma Long was ranked #WR1 but had not proved himself yet in WTTC and World Cup; Timo Boll was ranked #WR3 and had a World Cup title.


Zhang Jike (24 years old) lost to Timo Boll (31 years old) in the semifinal of 2012 London Olymic Games team events (Jul 2012) by 1:3 (11-8, 8-11, 9-11, 11-8). At that time, Zhang Jike was ranked #WR1 holding the most recent WTTC and World Cup titles; Timo Boll was ranked #WR7.


Three questions: Which player is considered better, #WR1 without a world champion title in singles event or #WR1 with two world champion titles in singles events? Which Timo Boll has a better form, a 29-year-old in 2010 or a 31-year-old in 2012? Which loss is more unexpected, a #WR1 losing to a #WR3 by 2:3 or a #WR1 losing to a #WR7 by 1:3?


In the SFs and finals of "big" team events (Olympic Games, WTTC and World Cup), here summarizes ALL the losses of CNT players.
Ma Long was beaten by Timo Boll (2:3) in the final of 2010 WTTC. Once.
Wang Hao was beaten by Dimitrij Ovtcharov (1:3) in the SF of 2009 World Cup. Once.
Zhang Jike was beaten by by Timo Boll (1:3) in the SF of 2012 Lodon Olympic Games, by Chen Chien-An (2:3) in the final of 2013 World Cup, and by Dimitrij Ovtcharov (0:3) in the final of 2014 WTTC. Three times.
Xu Xin was beaten by Jun Mizutani (2:3) in the final of 2016 Rio Olympic Games. Once.


Ma Long and Xu Xin's losses were in the deciding set, which suggests that they were not tough enough technically and/or tactically and/or mentally at that moment, when the opponents were on fire. Zhang Jike made to the deciding set once (against Chen Chien-An, #WR48 by then and Zhang Jike #WR3) and did not make to the deciding set twice. What do you think of his technical and/or tactical and/or mental toughness?

I think ZJK is a self absorbed egotistical guy who doesn't care about the team events and played badly because he didn't care. There are many matches ZJK lost where it looks like he just didn't have his head or his heart in the match.


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