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    1. Top | #1
      James Livesey is offline
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      Penhold Long pimple Technique

      I've started playing LP as a penhold player and am getting on very well. I serve with a tacky, slightly soft rubber and then twiddle to LP. I also RPB with my inverted rubber to attack. However, I realize the LP game for penhold is quite developed but cannot find any written material due to it being a strictly chinese discipline. I can chop top spin both BH and FH and this is very effective, however I am struggling mostly with backspin. if they loop hard topspin and I chop it to give them back the spin as backspin, then they can push it low and long. I understand that if I hit this, it is topspin, but find it difficult to attack because I still have to open the face of my racket slightly and move upwards, producing a weak topspin shot they can attack. When I watch penhold LP players they do a lot of side swiping. Is this just deception? Is there a way to produce good FH kills against backspin or do I just go for nasty angles/body feints? My RPB loop is definitely my best shot so if I can loop against backspin and then chop the return ball, I almost always win the point, as there is such a ridiculous amount of backspin. But as of right now, I'm chopping and blocking, and psuedo looping backspin. there has to be more to this art? I apologise if this has already been discussed on this forum. I had a look and couldn't find much. This is such a niche, and potentially under exploited tactic in TT, as RPB makes such a radical difference. Also, any names of Penhold LP players would be very helpful. I am aware of Zhou Xintong, who is most like my style, and to a degree Tin Tin Ho. But I am more interested in the LP technique than the RPB. My RPB loop and serve are my greatest strengths.

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    3. Top | #2
      genrel001 is offline
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      Hi James!

      Remember your old post about using LP for penhold FH, well that got me thinking. I ditched my shakehand style and went back to LP PH again.

      I play hitting game mostly on the FH side. Yes you can hit through top spin and can even loop a back spin. For hitting topspin what I do is I make a short fast brushing stroke, but you also have to consider the height of the bounce of the ball and must hit the ball at its peak. Hit it early and you will go over the table, hit it late and you will catch the net. If my opponent make a high arcing loop that's impossible for me to reach, that's when I chop the ball. Also if the ball is so low, that's when I block/push.

      Another thing is to adjust your BH fingers, extend it fully like gripping a Jpen with no RPB. RPB grip like wang hoa's allows you to have free wrist movement which in my opinion you don't need when using LP. What you need is control and a little power for hitting. This is fine for me as I don't have a consistent RPB. I only use RPB when I'm 100% sure it will land on the table.

      On the TPB side my favorite stroke is the side sweep. I don't know about the others but for me it is the easiest stroke to lift the ball or push the ball as "straight pushing" the ball makes me end up mostly on the net.

      As for references on the style, it's really hard to come by. Trial and error is the best way so far.

      Anyway, thanks to you I'm back in penhold land again.
      Don't forget footwork.

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    5. Top | #3
      suds79 is offline
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      Holy smokes another fellow penhold twiddler. That is rare. i don't find many others to converse with.

      So the LP swipe vs backspin in my experience doesn't actually do much for deception. Perhaps you can get your opponent to hesitate which is good but I do it simply because it's easier for me (and possibly others also?) to execute the attacking stroke vs that. So i would recommend doing that. For me the point winner isn't the power of the shot. No. You're probably playing close to the table so you're playing angles. It's the placement of the shot (which seems easy IMO) that wins the point.

      Here's a video match I had with another Jpener.

      Full video:


      Swipe vs backspin vis (infinite looper)
      http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=pVH...Q&p=n#/501;507

      So maybe it's a left handed thing which is possible but I can't tell you how many times I've gotten this point vs people. Show obvious backspin serve to encourage them to push, twiddle, swipe to the open court or their weak spot. Most of the time, they just assume you will push back if they keep their return low. But with the LPs, that's really a non-factor.

      Back to your original Q on dealing with backspin. Of course you can always twiddle back to inverted and loop with your FH if you like. But that might not be what you're looking for.

      I suppose I will leave you with this. Look up Wang Qiu Yi. She plays the exact same style you do. Serves inverted FH, twiddles. Plays pretty much only LP (palio ck531a) on FH & inverted on BH. She is by far the best LP penhold attacker i've ever seen.

      Here's a Youtube Playlist of Penhold LP/Twiddlers I've started. She, among others are featured here.

      Since you can't get well written instruction, best thing you can do is watch & learn.

      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...-TTKNYTt9-Ns6t

      PS - Oh yeah. One last thing I forgot. i keep to the curled fingers approach simply because with extended fingers, I just cannot twiddle quickly.
      Last edited by suds79; 03-27-2017 at 06:35 PM.

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    7. Top | #4
      genrel001 is offline
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      You got some game. I agree placement is the most vital aspect of playing LP PH. I see we have different philosophy on the grip. But I get our differences, you bend your fingers to maximize your twiddling and I extend mine to maximize power and speed since I rarely twiddle, heck I even serve with my RPB.

      Thanks for the info and videos suds79.

      PS. Is your serve legal? I mean, you're covering it with your back.

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    9. Top | #5
      suds79 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by genrel001 View Post
      You got some game. I agree placement is the most vital aspect of playing LP PH. I see we have different philosophy on the grip. But I get our differences, you bend your fingers to maximize your twiddling and I extend mine to maximize power and speed since I rarely twiddle, heck I even serve with my RPB.

      Thanks for the info and videos suds79.

      PS. Is your serve legal? I mean, you're covering it with your back.
      I hear ya. Truth be told from a feel & power prospective, I prefer the fingers extended approach. I do mine simply from a twiddle prospective. Well that and I like it more for a FH to TPB transition prospective.

      Anyways, Yeah I would say my serve is legal. The angle in the video isn't the best for judging that. Now I turn my back. I try to hide my paddle during the serve (which is completely legal) only showing it upon the point of contact. That's the part you have to do. But hiding the face of my blade (which side am i serving with on top of reading the movement) before is completely fine. They just have to see the contact.

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    11. Top | #6
      James Livesey is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by genrel001 View Post
      Hi James!

      Remember your old post about using LP for penhold FH, well that got me thinking. I ditched my shakehand style and went back to LP PH again.

      I play hitting game mostly on the FH side. Yes you can hit through top spin and can even loop a back spin. For hitting topspin what I do is I make a short fast brushing stroke, but you also have to consider the height of the bounce of the ball and must hit the ball at its peak. Hit it early and you will go over the table, hit it late and you will catch the net. If my opponent make a high arcing loop that's impossible for me to reach, that's when I chop the ball. Also if the ball is so low, that's when I block/push.

      Another thing is to adjust your BH fingers, extend it fully like gripping a Jpen with no RPB. RPB grip like wang hoa's allows you to have free wrist movement which in my opinion you don't need when using LP. What you need is control and a little power for hitting. This is fine for me as I don't have a consistent RPB. I only use RPB when I'm 100% sure it will land on the table.

      On the TPB side my favorite stroke is the side sweep. I don't know about the others but for me it is the easiest stroke to lift the ball or push the ball as "straight pushing" the ball makes me end up mostly on the net.

      As for references on the style, it's really hard to come by. Trial and error is the best way so far.

      Anyway, thanks to you I'm back in penhold land again.
      I have a lot of love for SH, because I've never been able to play it! and I don't really know any other penholders except one of the coaches at my club (Traditional penholder). But I'm starting to think that what is most interesting about twiddling ph LP is the mind games, and the stability. catching good angles, creating awkward balls and ultimately forcing the error is the name of the game. It is much more interesting to me strategically, and wholly different from my usual massively offensive RPB heavy style. I don't usually force errors, I just create loops fast enough and spinny enough to easily win the point. LP penhold is extremely unique in it's defensive forcing errors and ability to attack. I've found now that I've got a good tacky rubber on that if the ball becomes to stale I can loop with the rpb and then block the attack for massive backspin, usually to their BH side. spin seems really essential, so without the rpb, i think ph lp really suffers. As long as you don't give LP spin, you can win with better speed/the option of adding spin the rally. at the moment, I only ever lose a point wherein they force the attack against backspin (with fh, this is as i've previously mentioned, the most difficult shot for me) and then counter it, or when they play no spin. If I can attack fh against backspin or loop backspin RPB (which i'm actually decent at, and this is easier with a tacky rubber), then I should have few troubles. still early days though.

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    13. Top | #7
      James Livesey is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by suds79 View Post
      Holy smokes another fellow penhold twiddler. That is rare. i don't find many others to converse with.

      So the LP swipe vs backspin in my experience doesn't actually do much for deception. Perhaps you can get your opponent to hesitate which is good but I do it simply because it's easier for me (and possibly others also?) to execute the attacking stroke vs that. So i would recommend doing that. For me the point winner isn't the power of the shot. No. You're probably playing close to the table so you're playing angles. It's the placement of the shot (which seems easy IMO) that wins the point.

      Here's a video match I had with another Jpener.

      Full video:


      Swipe vs backspin vis (infinite looper)
      http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=pVH...Q&p=n#/501;507

      So maybe it's a left handed thing which is possible but I can't tell you how many times I've gotten this point vs people. Show obvious backspin serve to encourage them to push, twiddle, swipe to the open court or their weak spot. Most of the time, they just assume you will push back if they keep their return low. But with the LPs, that's really a non-factor.

      Back to your original Q on dealing with backspin. Of course you can always twiddle back to inverted and loop with your FH if you like. But that might not be what you're looking for.

      I suppose I will leave you with this. Look up Wang Qiu Yi. She plays the exact same style you do. Serves inverted FH, twiddles. Plays pretty much only LP (palio ck531a) on FH & inverted on BH. She is by far the best LP penhold attacker i've ever seen.

      Here's a Youtube Playlist of Penhold LP/Twiddlers I've started. She, among others are featured here.

      Since you can't get well written instruction, best thing you can do is watch & learn.

      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...-TTKNYTt9-Ns6t

      PS - Oh yeah. One last thing I forgot. i keep to the curled fingers approach simply because with extended fingers, I just cannot twiddle quickly.
      This is very cool. I was wondering what you guys thought about serving with the LP as a mixup. You seem to have that down. Hide the racket face you're serving with till last minute, then serve either massively spinny or barely any spin. My twiddling needs the most work, so atm I am playing trad ph when I serve, and LP ph when I receive, also using my rpb loop. This helps me develop my footwork on serving, as my 3rd ball attack needs desperate work. However, I do sometimes, serve LP, and most people pop this up or put it in the net, because they are expecting spin. All of your comments are massive help. You must also be somewhat frustrated that this way of playing TT is rather developed in China, but literature is hard to access. the PH coach at my club (who used to work for CNT) told me that there are 8 strokes for LP PH. I asked him what they were and he said, 'I don't remember, LP not good today at high level.' However, he did say that he thought pimples were highly underappreciated in the west, and that he almost always loses to pimples players in China. your reverse side serves are amazing as well. That is next level mixup.

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    15. Top | #8
      genrel001 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by James Livesey View Post
      I have a lot of love for SH, because I've never been able to play it! and I don't really know any other penholders except one of the coaches at my club (Traditional penholder). But I'm starting to think that what is most interesting about twiddling ph LP is the mind games, and the stability. catching good angles, creating awkward balls and ultimately forcing the error is the name of the game. It is much more interesting to me strategically, and wholly different from my usual massively offensive RPB heavy style. I don't usually force errors, I just create loops fast enough and spinny enough to easily win the point. LP penhold is extremely unique in it's defensive forcing errors and ability to attack. I've found now that I've got a good tacky rubber on that if the ball becomes to stale I can loop with the rpb and then block the attack for massive backspin, usually to their BH side. spin seems really essential, so without the rpb, i think ph lp really suffers. As long as you don't give LP spin, you can win with better speed/the option of adding spin the rally. at the moment, I only ever lose a point wherein they force the attack against backspin (with fh, this is as i've previously mentioned, the most difficult shot for me) and then counter it, or when they play no spin. If I can attack fh against backspin or loop backspin RPB (which i'm actually decent at, and this is easier with a tacky rubber), then I should have few troubles. still early days though.
      Seems like you've thought things through. I like how you try make your opponent make errors by means of spin and deception. And, yes I definitely agree that RPB is really a game changer for the style. Which is why even though I don't have a consistent RPB I still try to sneak one from time to time and every time I score with it even with the simplest RPB block. It's like they never see it coming every time. But as for my philosophy of the style, I concentrate more on varying the tempo of the game. The best thing about LP FH is that you can hit a long ball then block to create a short ball which really gets the opponent out rhythm, also I like to see them dance (I call it the "Cha-cha"). Lol.

      Placement>Speed>Spin.

      I have this gut that this might be the future. Lol.
      Last edited by genrel001; 03-29-2017 at 01:25 AM.

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    17. Top | #9
      genrel001 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by James Livesey View Post
      This is very cool. I was wondering what you guys thought about serving with the LP as a mixup. You seem to have that down. Hide the racket face you're serving with till last minute, then serve either massively spinny or barely any spin. My twiddling needs the most work, so atm I am playing trad ph when I serve, and LP ph when I receive, also using my rpb loop. This helps me develop my footwork on serving, as my 3rd ball attack needs desperate work. However, I do sometimes, serve LP, and most people pop this up or put it in the net, because they are expecting spin. All of your comments are massive help. You must also be somewhat frustrated that this way of playing TT is rather developed in China, but literature is hard to access. the PH coach at my club (who used to work for CNT) told me that there are 8 strokes for LP PH. I asked him what they were and he said, 'I don't remember, LP not good today at high level.' However, he did say that he thought pimples were highly underappreciated in the west, and that he almost always loses to pimples players in China. your reverse side serves are amazing as well. That is next level mixup.
      I tried serving like that twiddling the bat at the last second to confuse the opponent. But I had problems;

      1. You have to readjust the grip after twiddling which often leads to not hitting the shot at the perfect timing which leads to bad service.

      2. In case the serve was successful you would still have to move yourself to position to receipt and at the same time re-twiddle the bat which often leads to dropping the bat or returning a bad shot.

      Maybe suds79 has no problem with this but for me I'm bad at twiddling. As a solution I learned how to serve with RPB (inverted side). So far I have 4 service strokes on that side but the long chop is my go-to-serve. I also try to serve with my LP but only when I caught my opponent out of position then I hit him with a fast long-no-spin-serve on the weak side (usually BH side). Also short LP serve is a gem if you want to make a 3rd ball attack as more often than not opponents pops the ball up but I don't over do it so that they won't get used to it easily.

      I never knew that this style originated in China. I understand the lack of references for this style, it's trial and error most of the time. You're even lucky you have a PH coach in your club. In our club (also City) I'm the only PH.

      One more thing, this might be irrelevant to the topic. But after playing SH for a month I was expecting that returning to PH would need a little readjustment. But to my surprise, I can tell that I am way better than before. Shots are more consistent (my RPB still sucks though), more powerful and I feel like I have more control of the game. Weird.

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    19. Top | #10
      James Livesey is offline
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      I wasn't thinking of twiddling during the swing that would be crazy hard. Just keeping the racket face hidden until contact. And if I do my normal swing for long pendulum, with a tiny bit of adjustment, even though there a very quick swing, the ball goes short using the LP side. They expect either huge spin or speed but when it goes very short, even if they realise that it's float, they still usually lunge and pop it up. What are your thoughts on chopping backspin? This seems like the best way to kill the spin and produce nasty wobble. I haven't really tried looping topspin for the same effect but looping with LP is extremely difficult as I have my muscle memory down for looping with inverted.

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    21. Top | #11
      genrel001 is offline
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      I see. I always serve long with LP. I'll try serving short next time and see if my opponent will pop it up. On the other hand, chopping backspin will pop the ball based on my experience. But I'm using Donic Akkadi L2 OX which is almost close to frictionless LP so chopping kind'a hard to do. Plus I'm using a fast carbon blade so there's almost no dwell time for the ball to be chopped that's why the ball pops up, I think. I'm thinking of buying a new LP OX but with more friction than mine and put it on a 2mm sponge (Is this legal?), maybe it will add more control to my shots. On looping topspin, it depends on the spin. If it's there's too much spin and I tried to counter or loop the ball, it over shoots to the other end of the table. But on a moderate topspin the ball dives long and dead. Pretty cool to see, especially when your opponent is trying to block it and the ball just bounces down to their side of the table.

      I think I need to practice my RPB more. I tried playing with more RPB yesterday and my oppoenent tend to be more confused than usual. But I still made many errors with it.

      I'm thinking of new set of equipment. I just bought last month from TT11 a sheet of Dr. Neubauer Viper Soft 1.0mm and Spinlord Marder II 1.8mm. I'm still waiting for it to arrive, the shipping took longer than the usual (I hope it's not lost). I am thinking if I should stick it to my Dr. Neubauer Firewall+ or order the Galaxy 989 Japanese revolver blade.

      Firewall+

      Pros:
      1. Light
      2. Deceptive
      3. Excellent control and touch

      Con:
      1. Lacks mid speed
      2. pretty thick handle for PH
      3. It's very fragile and already have some dents and small cracks

      Galaxy 989

      Pros:
      1. It looks effing cool!!
      2. Faster and more linear than Firewall+

      Cons:
      1. I haven't tried this yet

      What do you think James?

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    23. Top | #12
      suds79 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by James Livesey View Post
      What are your thoughts on chopping backspin? This seems like the best way to kill the spin and produce nasty wobble.
      I use it as a rare change up.

      I generally believe that you should pretty much swipe or attack all backspin balls with LPs but that can be dangerous if the opponent starts to expect this and they've hit with you enough to adjust to the off speed nature of the attack. Given this style only thrives on keeping them off balance, I'm okay with this shot as a rare mixup to kill the spin.

      Here's the tricky part. It's hard to execute consistently IMO. Super easy to pop up. Just takes a lot of practice.

      Earlier in this thread I saw a remark about having to readjust the paddle after the twiddle. I think this is common when you're first getting the hang of it. It's for that reason I kinda like the curled fingers approach. As you twiddle, you kind curls your fingers tighter after twiddling and you can kinda pull the paddle up tight against your hand if it slides down a little on your twiddle. After a while, you do it naturally without even noticing.

      Or... You can practice twiddling for a while with the face of your blade pointing up. If the blade slips at all, it's basically falling into your hand nice & tight.

      Good news. I was filming myself (yuck but I think will be important) for the TT chit chat thread to have Next Level and others help me critique my inverted stoke after spending so much time on short pips. Check out that video in that thread. Or i guess I could post it here also if it's wanted. I basically go through all the strokes I know with this style. Anyways, the point I found out was that you can twiddle with the fingers extended method!!! You just have to hold the blade further down on the neck than you normally would so that your fingers on the face of the blade aren't so much towards the middle of the face. Rather, they're more on the end and less in the way. I might have to experiment to see if I can get my twiddle speed up with this grip. If so, I might adopt it.

      Honestly the key to learning a fast twiddle is simple practice. Not while you're playing. No. I'm talking about when you're chilling at home watching a TV program. Just have your paddle in your hand twiddling while you watch your favorite shows. I promise you your twiddle will be lighting fast in no time.

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    25. Top | #13
      genrel001 is offline
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      A video would be nice. One way to keep this thread going and additional reference is always good. Maybe someday I'll post mine too (when I'm confident enough ).

      I'll try twiddling again some time, maybe after I've improved my RPB.

      BTW what are your takes on a Japanese PH revolver style like Galaxy 989, Butterfly Hawdraw Revolver..etc. Jpens with cork on both sides made for twiddling. I haven't tried one yet but it seems like there's more balance to the blade as compared to a Cpen. Probably because of the long and heavier handle. Also they look epic. I'm looking forward to purchase one.

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    27. Top | #14
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      If I was going to go that route, I'd definitely try the Nittaku Sou.

      IMO there isn't a sexier blade around. You can pick it up from TableTennis11.com
      http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_e...u-sou-mf-r-pen

      Plus Nittaku makes excellent blades. But that being said, for some reason I've always hit with more power with Jpens & less spin compared to Cpens. I think it's a me thing. So I probably wouldn't go that route as I'm trying to up my spin.

      I don't necessarily always curl my forefinger around the neck anyways.

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      OldschoolPenholder (03-30-2017)

    29. Top | #15
      OldschoolPenholder is offline
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      This was filmed months ago when i tried briefly to test the weight of the SP on the back with my inverted on the front after years of playing oldschool PH single-sided. Wasn't sure if my wrist could handle the extra weight and FTR, it could not.

      Only the 2nd time i twiddled, i was sitting waiting for next on a table and tried twiddling. Not as smooth and fast as suds during a game though!

      My Opponent is my Friend.
      My Friend is my Teacher.
      My Teacher shows me my Weaknesses.
      I am only as Strong as my Weakness.
      My Ego is my Enemy.

      I will not Lose to my Enemy.
      --------------------------------------
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      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClR...u057SJTKL4O9Og

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      genrel001 (03-31-2017),suds79 (03-30-2017)

    31. Top | #16
      suds79 is offline
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      Had a hit with my co-worder, who also attends club every now & then, over lunch.

      Was hitting just okay. Had a moment where I felt unsatisified with my inverted FH and thought "why am I banging my head against the wall trying to spin everything." So took the next couple of hits and just hit more normal (basically my SP stoke) and hit a pinch better. Hmm.

      Anyways, being that I was kinda stuck there with that setup, I decided to practice something I've done before but never for a real extended period and that's to play the twiddle game but play probably 80% of it with LPs on my FH (still a very short pip stroke) and inverted on my BH. Man you talk about everything coming alive. He really couldn't handle it.

      Basically vs any serve it doesn't matter what's on the ball (except dead. have to watch out for that one). It's just so easy to counter through it and place the ball to whatever spot you choose. Now it's not fast mind you but painting corners? You bet.

      Of course you always have the rare change up for when the ball does come to your BH and they're use to you playing the slow LPs, you have that inverted RPB. The over the table loop is a nice surprise if they start to serve you dead & short... If you play enough LPs and the opponent gets tired of having his spiny serves brought back to them trust me it'll happen.

      Anyways, I'll see how it goes into club. Presumably the same setup. I can still hit RPB topspin with short pips just fine but granted it's not quite as good as inverted.

      Seems as though there's always trade offs. No 1 perfect thing.

      Inverted: better serves. Better RPB
      SP: better control. Better placement. More closely resembling the technique you'd use to attack with LPs. So there's a consistency element you get with your muscle memory in not having to drastically change.
      Last edited by suds79; 03-30-2017 at 07:26 PM.

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      OldschoolPenholder (03-30-2017)

    33. Top | #17
      genrel001 is offline
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      I've seen that SOU from TT11 it's really great but the price is a little on the expensive side, also I am having issues with TT11 as of the moment. It's been almost a month and my order hasn't arrived yet. I'm starting to get anxious about it. What about the Galaxy J-1? A 1-ply Ayous wood, people say it's very controlled at low speed but unpredictable at high speed. Maybe adding that unpredictability when hitting with LP will make more deceptions. hmmm...

      That my friend is my game. 80-90% LP 10-20% RPB. No twiddle. When my opponent got tired with serving high spin serves, in my case, they tend to serve me a long dead ball (they don't serve short dead balls to me anymore as I could just flick the ball with my RPB). I still haven't figure out how to return that properly in my LP FH side. All I can do is block it but goes a little high, enough for my opponent to counter-drive. Chop it and it will pop. One solution that I did is block it to their BH side to at least reduce the chance of powerful drives and hope to counter with my RPB or block with LP and regain the control of the game. But easier said than done, at least to me.

      P.S.

      I can't do RPB with SP always ends up to the net.

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      OldschoolPenholder (03-31-2017)

    35. Top | #18
      tropical is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by genrel001 View Post

      I can't do RPB with SP always ends up to the net.
      RTP? What is that?

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      OldschoolPenholder (03-31-2017)

    37. Top | #19
      genrel001 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by tropical View Post
      RTP? What is that?
      I'm sorry. What RTP?

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      OldschoolPenholder (03-31-2017)

    39. Top | #20
      tropical is offline
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      RPB sorry ...

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      OldschoolPenholder (03-31-2017)

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