Slow down a blade or speed up the rubbers?

NextLevel · Mar 30, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
From my perspective, slower equipment is often useful for most people who are healthy and can swing hard without ramifications on their body.

Most of those CNT players are using blades around the speed of a Viscaria or slower which isn't really such a fast blade even though I like a little bit slower than that. So the idea that with H3 which is not very fast, on a Viscaria, which is also not super fast, you can take a bigger swing more safely makes total sense to me. Especially for a fairly high level player. I think that is a totally different issue than someone who is having trouble keeping the ball on the table in loop and counterloop rallies because they are developing their technique.

For someone who is developing technique, I would start with a slow blade. I would also start with rubbers that allow you to learn to get the ball to sink into the sponge so the topsheet wraps around the ball more and grabs harder. Or with Chinese rubbers you would have to learn how to get the topsheet to really grab on brush contact.

I still go back to my example of my tennis pro friend. Because he is healthy and his stroke mechanics are awesome, he can blast shots like they came out of a cannon with a Stiga Allround Classic. If you are not healthy, maybe that is not the way to go. But if you are healthy, if you start with a slow blade, when you really develop your technique, and you move up to a faster blade, you will have some crazy power behind your shots.

I actually have another friend who plays TT who is also a Tennis pro. This guy is, overall, lower level by a lot than the one with the Allround Classic. This one uses a Rosewood XO and his old blade was a Stiga Allround Evolution. He has known Lily Yip since Adam and Judy were kids and taken lots of lessons with them. But they can't convince him to learn serve and receive skills. So I can take care of him in a match. However, he is way better than me at anything back from the table. Way, way better than me. One time I was hitting with him and a friend of mine who is fairly decent said, "Hey he has more power than you." I laughed. Waaaaaaaaaayyyyy more power than me. He also has way more power on pure blasting the ball than many 2400-2500 TT players. And his blade is a simple 5 ply all wood blade that really is not very fast.

When someone uses faster equipment to help out a physical condition, like, when someone has a shoulder issue and is using a faster blade to help him protect his shoulder, that is fine. It is intelligent. It makes complete sense. When someone is older and they are using a faster blade, and have the technique, and the faster blade helps them do less damage to their body, that also makes complete sense.

But for someone young and healthy, there are so many players out there who could slow down their equipment and, in the long run, end up learning how to put more of their own power behind their shots. That would be useful. And maybe you slow down both the blade and the rubber. But I would definitely start with the blade for sure.

Sure, I wouldn't start anyone out on a Gergely Carbon or a Sardius or even a Timo Boll ALC. But I think this misses the point of the original post and also misses some subtleties about blade rubber interaction. And there is some stuff that it is easy to be mislead about in the absence of video or specifics.

I spoke to a high level coach about feeling the ball and you know what he told me? He said when you feel the ball, you probably have racket head speed that is too low. Now I Wanted to fight him for saying that but the more I thought about it, the more I realized he was right in a very important sense.

Anyways, my point is something like this - would I use Mark V or Tackfire Chop on a TBS (or a limba equivalent, since I hate Koto) or would I use Tenergy 05 or Tenergy 64 on a Yasaka Allround Classic?

1. Fast (OFF blade) with slower, spinny rubbers.
2. Slow blade (ALL/ALl+) with faster, spinny non-linear rubbers.

I am saying that while many coaches will often seem to say based on my internet experience that you are better off using combo 2, I have found for my game that combo 1 tends to be what I play better with. I don't think it is because I am injured as I play comfortably enough with both. I think it is because linearity, as bobpuls said, is easier for me to intuit from a blades and rubbers which are straightforward in how they behave, and the non-linearity of modern rubbers like Tenergy is awkward for me to adjust to. Maybe with extended time with a high level coach working on my game, he could show me what the missing link in my thinking is or the limitations of my game vs high level players. But I doubt that I could actually do better with a slow blade fast rubber combination than with a fast blade slow rubber combination vs higher level players. For me, what is more important is that my setup does not give my logic for how I use the rubber mental discontinuities. If I block a little, I want the ball to move a little. If I block harder, I want the ball to move faster and in the direction I send it in. But with some combinations of rubber and blade, I get results when I block that don't seem to connect logically with this feeling.

The specific topic I am posing is what I read in the original question though the OP might be at a level where different considerations are important to him.

dominus7 · Apr 3, 2017

SilentRain said:
My own 2 cents. A blade is more of a long term investment compared to rubbers. As an intermediate to advance player, I would rather get the fastest blade that i can control very well (Not the fastest blade in the market but the best blade that i can control at my current level) and adjust the speed using rubbers. As I get better, I would upgrade the rubber to suit my needs. Only after getting full mastery of the equipment will i consider changing the blade and repeat the process from there. Excluding my short term period of being bitten by the EJ virus, a blade usually lasts around 3 years before I find myself needing a change.

get the fastest blade that I can control means become in a EJ boy, doesn't have sense for most people who can't afford it.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

cmbaX · Apr 3, 2017

I went from

Latika (off-/all wood) with Evolution FX-P 2.0 (softer sponge, bouncier)

to

Viscaria with Evolution MX-S 1.8 (thinner, harder sponge)

and I felt the contact became more direct, more stable and I was able to generate more power, and had better placement. I felt the difference quite immediately after the change, even though there was training along the way, the new blade and rubber indeed made quite a difference.

Amayzde · Apr 3, 2017

I found out that the Blade is more important for the Speed of your bat then the Rubbers.

I played with someones bat that was a Donic Appelgren Allplay with Bluefire M2 on both sides. And I have played with a Timo Boll Spirit with Andro Impuls Powersponge on both sides.

Surprisingly a slow blade with faster rubbers seem to be more controlable then a fast blade with slow rubbers. But thats my conclusion, dont know if someone else has the same experience.

fais · Apr 3, 2017

I am a huge proponent of having multiple paddles in your arsenal, and actively rotating between them/playing with all of them as you try to improve.

I even tend to start my warm up with a slower blade with amazing feedback and softer rubbers to find my touch (since I don't play very often) and then progress towards my faster blade as part of my warm up (once I find that "sense", it becomes easier to detect on a blade with muted feedback).

My slower/warm up blade is also an all+/off- blade (yinhe e3 vb, with a fiber glass layer) but I find the feedback to be much higher than all wood blades.

NextLevel · Apr 3, 2017

Amayzde said:
I found out that the Blade is more important for the Speed of your bat then the Rubbers.

I played with someones bat that was a Donic Appelgren Allplay with Bluefire M2 on both sides. And I have played with a Timo Boll Spirit with Andro Impuls Powersponge on both sides.

Surprisingly a slow blade with faster rubbers seem to be more controlable then a fast blade with slow rubbers. But thats my conclusion, dont know if someone else has the same experience.

I used to agree with this but I am not so sure anymore. I tend to find the rubber more important for controlling speed than the blade nowadays, though of course, I play with things in an acceptable range for myself.

Zaid323918 · Apr 3, 2017

I think that knowing your blade and being used to it can make an impact on its control and feeling. I remember that I started off playing with an all wood blade with speed glued Juic rubbers. the speed of the combo was around OFF- which is fast for a beginner. I switched to a slower Stiga Pro carbon racket in a few months to develop my game. Still the feel of my first blade was better and since it was flexy and all wood, I could loop with greater quality (my highest quality shots then were still not that good) but with a little less consistency. Besides that pre-made Stiga, all the racket combos I've used were OFF- to OFF+ with MAX rubber always.

NextLevel · Apr 3, 2017

Too many people focus on looping when it comes to blade/rubber evaluation. Things like serve return and pushing (basically over the table play and control) are just as if not more important for winning points at a decent level.

Zaid323918 · Apr 3, 2017

NextLevel said:
Too many people focus on looping when it comes to blade/rubber evaluation. Things like serve return and pushing (basically over the table play and control) are just as if not more important for winning points at a decent level.

True but even the pushing and service were obviously better with the faster combo as far as I can remember. Just the lack of control that a beginner has forced me to use that Stiga. In fact initially I had no idea what a loop was and I wanted to learn to chop which I did decently along with the short game since my training partner/father used to be a chopper. I was able to beat players who could topspin decently but didn't know how to play against the underspin. Still, I soon changed my focus to offensive though I still chop every now and then. Anyways this is just my 2 million dollars

Brs · Apr 3, 2017

NextLevel said:
Too many people focus on looping when it comes to blade/rubber evaluation. Things like serve return and pushing (basically over the table play and control) are just as if not more important for winning points at a decent level.

Most people posting these equipment questions are probably not in the 2000 - 2100 range where you live, so your answer may fall into the category of true but not that useful. If the OP plays in a 1400 - 1800 range, then over the table play is likely not the dominant factor that fh looping is in his results.

NextLevel · Apr 3, 2017

Brs said:
Most people posting these equipment questions are probably not in the 2000 - 2100 range where you live, so your answer may fall into the category of true but not that useful. If the OP plays in a 1400 - 1800 range, then over the table play is likely not the dominant factor that fh looping is in his results.

True if you lack aspiration, false if you don't.

Brs · Apr 3, 2017

NextLevel said:
True if you lack aspiration, false if you don't.

Whatevs

Baal · Apr 4, 2017

Third option, get medium in both blade and rubber. Something like Buttsrfly Korbel with Barracuda.

bobpuls · Apr 4, 2017

NextLevel said:
Too many people focus on looping when it comes to blade/rubber evaluation. Things like serve return and pushing (basically over the table play and control) are just as if not more important for winning points at a decent level.

Not mention blocking.... far more control here with slower rubbers and faster blades.

Beep-Beep · Nov 19, 2017

I am 44 years old and returned to tabletennis 3 years ago, after quitting when 13 years old.
I play somewhat aggressive with good serves and good touch/feeling, dropshots etc; compared to my rating which is 1400-1500.

I use donic appelgreen allplay (very slow and flexi) and I have loved it with both; Tenergy 05FX (1.7), Tenergy 25FX (1.7), Tenergy 80 (1.9) and Tenergy 05 (1.9).

But I have absolutely hated it with both Tenergy 80FX (1.9) and Tenergy 64FX (1.9)!

Do you think these rubbers (T80FX and T64FX) would work better for me with a harder/stiffer (and maybe way faster) blade ? I would like to try it out (just for fun) - which blade should I choose: Korpel, Viscaria or even TBS or something else (don’t have to be butterfly-blades).

I love my current set-up t05-1.9/T80-1.9 (even though I consider changing to tenergy 05 (1.9) in backhand too) - so it is just for fun; I want to find out what the strongpoint of these rubbers (T80FX and T64FX) are; even though i have a strong feeling that the way to go for me (at least for now) is slow/flexi blade with tenergy 05 (1.9).

langel · Nov 19, 2017

It's kind of a "wake up" thread /some folks in the forum would prefer to say 'necrophilic'/.
Nevertheless I will give my point of view, but may be tomorrow, or after after tomorrow, because today Grigor Dimitrov has won the ATP World Tour Finals and got his first rank as World's #3rd and I'm so over exited.

ajtatosmano2 · Nov 19, 2017

For a beginner, slower blade with medium rubbers, otherwise it's just personal preference.
(edit: I wasn't aware this being a necroed thread, sorry.)

langel · Nov 20, 2017

The graph of a resulting strength of a human hit as a function of muscles engagement is not linear.
For most people it's parabolic /up to the highest point/ with different steepness.
The speed of blades as a function of the strength of impact is not linear two.
But different blades change speed in different way, depending on their structure.
Some have a parabolic graph, some have a hyperbolic graph, all with different steepness too.
If a player with a parabolic graph of strength use a blade with a parabolic speed graph, he will feel it relatively more speedy with weeker hits and/or closer distance, and relatively dead and lacking speed with stronger hits and/or longer distance.
If he play with a blade with a hyperbolic speed graph, he will feel it more linear. The more mirrored are these graphs, the more linear the feel will be.
Choosing the propper blade depends on the style, the initial speed of the blade, the way it changes speed and it's max speed.
With hyperbolic speed graph blades the max speed may not be needed, but it may not disturb the player if he feels good enough with lower speeds.
So, even if we think of lower speeds, faster rated blades are not always to be out of consideration.

ajtatosmano2 · Nov 20, 2017

langel said:
The graph of a resulting strength of a human hit as a function of muscles engagement is not linear.
For most people it's parabolic /up to the highest point/ with different steepness.
The speed of blades as a function of the strength of impact is not linear two.
But different blades change speed in different way, depending on their structure.
Some have a parabolic graph, some have a hyperbolic graph, all with different steepness too.
If a player with a parabolic graph of strength use a blade with a parabolic speed graph, he will feel it relatively more speedy with weeker hits and/or closer distance, and relatively dead and lacking speed with stronger hits and/or longer distance.
If he play with a blade with a hyperbolic speed graph, he will feel it more linear. The more mirrored are these graphs, the more linear the feel will be.
Choosing the propper blade depends on the style, the initial speed of the blade, the way it changes speed and it's max speed.
With hyperbolic speed graph blades the max speed may not be needed, but it may not disturb the player if he feels good enough with lower speeds.
So, even if we think of lower speeds, faster rated blades are not always to be out of consideration.

In short: both might work for you

brodolio · Nov 20, 2017

StuartMarquis said:
Just curious as to what is the better strategy if you're an allround sort of player; get a faster blade but slow it down a bit with slower rubbers, or get a slower blade but use more offensive rubbers?

I'd describe my self as being at the more attacking end of the all-round spectrum, but i still like to throw in the occasionaly defensive chop etc. Currently I use a joola aruna off blade but am trying to get more control by using slower/high control rubbers (joola zack and imperial cyber tacky). Would I be better off switching to a slower blade and maybe using some slightly faster rubbers?

Thanks

Stuart

I was in your same exact position.

I kept my rubbers and I put them on a very old AllRound Donic blade, much slower than my TB ALC.
It gave me a LOT of additional confidence. I started to win matches and express my style. I win more, and I have more fun. Total victory.

So my suggestion is : change your blade!!

Slow down a blade or speed up the rubbers?

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