Slow down a blade or speed up the rubbers?

The graph of a resulting strength of a human hit as a function of muscles engagement is not linear.
For most people it's parabolic /up to the highest point/ with different steepness.
The speed of blades as a function of the strength of impact is not linear two.
But different blades change speed in different way, depending on their structure.
Some have a parabolic graph, some have a hyperbolic graph, all with different steepness too.
If a player with a parabolic graph of strength use a blade with a parabolic speed graph, he will feel it relatively more speedy with weeker hits and/or closer distance, and relatively dead and lacking speed with stronger hits and/or longer distance.
If he play with a blade with a hyperbolic speed graph, he will feel it more linear. The more mirrored are these graphs, the more linear the feel will be.
Choosing the propper blade depends on the style, the initial speed of the blade, the way it changes speed and it's max speed.
With hyperbolic speed graph blades the max speed may not be needed, but it may not disturb the player if he feels good enough with lower speeds.
So, even if we think of lower speeds, faster rated blades are not always to be out of consideration.

Wow; never tought about that - makes sense. Now i just have to figure out if my "muscle engagement" -> "hit power" is hyperbolic og parabolic.
 
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To me, the first thing that comes to mind is keep the blade and use a really spinny rubber with thin sponge. (1.1-1.3mm). The control and spin from any of the TSP Triples is fantastic. This may be helpful, http://tabletennis-reviews.com/tsp-triple-spin-chop-sponge-review/ I use the TSP Triple Speed Chop and it can be very fast. [h=3][/h]
 
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I am now a fan of using very linear rubbers on a medium fast blade (say OFF, not OFF+).

Linear rubbers are things like Karis M, Stiga Mantra, TSP Regalis, and even something like Evolution EL-S. Mostly they have thin topsheets and quite short pips underneath. You can use those with a pretty fast sponge. I think even rubbers like Rasanter R series are tending toward that, although they are not quite as linear as the others I mentioned. Karis M takes that approach to the limit. It takes a little getting used to, but i love it and it lasts forever.

I doubt any high end pro players would like those rubbers, but then again, they are high end pros. I have been playing nearly my whole life, and I have pretty good and extensively coached technique, I used Tenergy 05 for a decade, and it was a revelation to see what I could gain from rubbers where output is almost perfectly proportional to input. Immediately I noticed I did better on points where I was under pressure. Somewhat later I adjusted technique to regain the ability to apply pressure with the added benefit that the ball stayed on the table more when I went for sharper angles.
 
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So, how to measure a particular person’s physique, and map on a curve?

Ask your physision. There are different instruments measuring muscle strength. They will not map a curve, but if you table down the results in regard of your feel of tension, you will have the curve.
 
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Ask your physision. There are different instruments measuring muscle strength. They will not map a curve, but if you table down the results in regard of your feel of tension, you will have the curve.

You explicitly mentioned strength as a function of muscle engagement. I can (relatively) easily measure strength in terms of force (F, in Newtons), momentum (M=F*m, in N*kg) and impuls (I=M*v, in N*kg*m/s). Now what is this muscle engagement of which you speak, what is its unit of measurement and how would I or a GP measure it?
 
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You explicitly mentioned strength as a function of muscle engagement. I can (relatively) easily measure strength in terms of force (F, in Newtons), momentum (M=F*m, in N*kg) and impuls (I=M*v, in N*kg*m/s). Now what is this muscle engagement of which you speak, what is its unit of measurement and how would I or a GP measure it?

Your muscle engagement is your feel of effort.
Muscle effectivity can be measured too, as well as the biochemical processes involved in energy produce and their effectiveness.
 
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Your muscle engagement is your feel of effort.
Muscle effectivity can be measured too, as well as the biochemical processes involved in energy produce and their effectiveness.

Sorry, I still don’t manage to get it. Feel of effort, that does not immediately sound quantfiable (in a systematic, sound way).

I do get the gist of your suggestion, and if that curve (defined by the coefficents to be produced from the metrics you suggest) can be determined, and contrasted with the relative responsitivity curve of combined equipment) that just might be a thing.

But I do not understand the how, and these details do matter, I think.
 
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Sorry, I still don’t manage to get it. Feel of effort, that does not immediately sound quantfiable (in a systematic, sound way).

I do get the gist of your suggestion, and if that curve (defined by the coefficents to be produced from the metrics you suggest) can be determined, and contrasted with the relative responsitivity curve of combined equipment) that just might be a thing.

But I do not understand the how, and these details do matter, I think.

Just a general glimp:

The Oxford scale is commonly used by physiotherapists to manually assess muscle strength. According to the Oxford scale, muscle strength is graded 0 to 5. The grades are summarised below:


  1. Flicker of movement
  2. Through full range actively with gravity counterbalanced
  3. Through full range actively against gravity
  4. Through full range actively against some resistance
  5. Through full range actively against strong resistance

And the above considering some limitations as:

non-linearity ( the difference between grades 3 and 4 is not necessarily the same as the difference between grades 4 and 5)

But this is very general. What i've mentioned is a comon abstract. If you like more detailed and/or precise info you really have to ask a specialist - a physision and/or a therapist.
 
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And another comparison:
A shorter muscle may give more strength quicker, resulting a more sharp steepness with weeker efforts, a long muscle may give flatter strength with weeker efforts and sharper steepness with harder. In both cases there is a point in which the resulting strength is raising slower than the effort. And in both cases the graph is parabolic, with different steepness in different segments.
Generally my abstract is that if you happen to find a blade with a mirrored graph, you will feel it exactly linear.
This happiness is difficult to aciheve and most often is a matter of chance.
I'm happy I've run to it.
 
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To whom it may concern.

This thread reminds me of a chat i had a while ago after training with Tanja Krämer* which made me rethink the choice of my equipment.

To that time i was using a Waldner Dotec Carbon (that blade is stiff as a brick) with Bluefire M2 max on fh and BF M3 max on BH.
After the first 2h session we had a break of an half an hour and i asked her what she was using.
She answered she just got the (to that time) brandnew Aruna Off-blade, and then added that she will soon switch back to her previous blade, which i believe was a Rossi, but not sure which one, but it was in the range off- to all+
I wanted to know why and she replied that she was tired of giving away to many easy points on serve return and short game and because of her daughter she couldn't put in the hours to make the Aruna become 'natural' to her.
She told me the difference between not so succesful players and succesful ones is simple.
The latter just put the ball on the table more often. And since playing TT has some influence on her income she also couldn't afford losing to weaker players by giving easy points.

Luckily i was smart enough to listen to her, put away my WDC and got a Nittaku Shake Carbon Off (it's actually rather considered off- to all+ nowadays) but a significant step back in terms of speed and a significant step up in terms of control in the shortgame and it was definitely worth it.
I also got one of her old blades she used to play quite some time. It's a Andrzej Grubba All+ (!!!)
But i haven't used it yet. I might give it to my son if he starts playing more seriously...


*For those who don't know Tanja, she was on the German women's National team, won German National championships in singles and doubles, and also participated quite succesful at US-Open 2009.

 
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I am now a fan of using very linear rubbers on a medium fast blade (say OFF, not OFF+).

Linear rubbers are things like Karis M, Stiga Mantra, TSP Regalis, and even something like Evolution EL-S. Mostly they have thin topsheets and quite short pips underneath. You can use those with a pretty fast sponge. I think even rubbers like Rasanter R series are tending toward that, although they are not quite as linear as the others I mentioned. Karis M takes that approach to the limit. It takes a little getting used to, but i love it and it lasts forever.

I doubt any high end pro players would like those rubbers, but then again, they are high end pros. I have been playing nearly my whole life, and I have pretty good and extensively coached technique, I used Tenergy 05 for a decade, and it was a revelation to see what I could gain from rubbers where output is almost perfectly proportional to input. Immediately I noticed I did better on points where I was under pressure. Somewhat later I adjusted technique to regain the ability to apply pressure with the added benefit that the ball stayed on the table more when I went for sharper angles.

I have done a lot of reading on Karis M; which i didn't knew existed one day ago and i really like to try it out.

I have really liked playing with Donic Appelgreen Allplay (slow/flexi like stiga allround classic) with tenergy 05 1.9.

I understand that Karis 2.0 is a fundamentally different rubber than Tenergy 05 1.9; but i am concerned that Karis gets to slow with my current blade; so i risk getting injuries while getting speed on loops (i am not in super-form; middleage etc.).

I am 1400-1500 in rating; and you are obviously much better than me; but i read that you play with Viscaria, and have played a lot with tenergy 05 earlier; did you play with Viscaria there too?

Coming from slow/flexi with tenergy 05 1.9; what blade would you (or others) suggest when trying out Karis 2.0 - in my sityation/level?

Viscaria, TBS, IF ALC? - or start out slower with Korbel or something else ? - (does not have to be butterfly).

I have read that you need a somewhat fast/stiff blade; so i guess my current blade is out of the question; specially regarding my (lack of) form and age (44).
 
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I used Tenergy 05 in max thickness on my Viscaria before. I think Karis would be too slow for tne Appelgren but good on any of tbe composite blades you listed, especially Viscaria or TBS. I have not ever tried it in 1.9. I use 2.1.
 
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The graph of a resulting strength of a human hit as a function of muscles engagement is not linear.
For most people it's parabolic /up to the highest point/ with different steepness.
The speed of blades as a function of the strength of impact is not linear two.
But different blades change speed in different way, depending on their structure.
Some have a parabolic graph, some have a hyperbolic graph, all with different steepness too.
If a player with a parabolic graph of strength use a blade with a parabolic speed graph, he will feel it relatively more speedy with weeker hits and/or closer distance, and relatively dead and lacking speed with stronger hits and/or longer distance.
If he play with a blade with a hyperbolic speed graph, he will feel it more linear. The more mirrored are these graphs, the more linear the feel will be.
Choosing the propper blade depends on the style, the initial speed of the blade, the way it changes speed and it's max speed.
With hyperbolic speed graph blades the max speed may not be needed, but it may not disturb the player if he feels good enough with lower speeds.
So, even if we think of lower speeds, faster rated blades are not always to be out of consideration.

Interesting idea but the math doesn't work. A parabolic function of a parabolic function isn't linear, it's quartic (fourth power).

I'd agree that a fast blade can work well at lower speeds with the right rubber. The hardness of the blade, together with the characteristics of the sponge and top sheet, determine the point on the effort input curve where the effect of the sponge kicks in and produces a perceived discontinuity in output. I'd guess the key is to avoid having the discontinuity occur with low or moderate effort, where it could feel like a loss of control. So you'd either want it to happen only later, with higher effort, or almost immediately with the lightest impact. In other words, with low or moderate effort, you want to be using the sponge either all the time or not at all. Possibly a koto/composite blade like Viscaria with a thin top sheet rubber like Karis manages to engage the sponge immediately and so feels linear at low and moderate speed. Would be interesting to know if Karis loses some of that linear feel with a slower, softer blade.
 
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Next Level might know. I like the blade I use and won't change it and so haven't tried Ksris with anything else. I think the sponge kicks in on most shots. I think the reason Karis feels so linear is they have made the internal pips as short as they can while still being legal. So the dynamics become a lot simpler (in other words the pips are a big source of discontinuity, and tney can make a rubber explosively powerful). If I had a slower blade I would match it with Karis H or Karis M+, which are harder and faster. Of course I haven't actually done that so I don't know for sure it would work. My sense is Karis M on a slow blade really will lack penetration and power and might not give you much extra control in return. You would have to be generating so much racket speed you would mistime more.
 
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Interesting idea but the math doesn't work. A parabolic function of a parabolic function isn't linear, it's quartic (fourth power).

I'd agree that a fast blade can work well at lower speeds with the right rubber. The hardness of the blade, together with the characteristics of the sponge and top sheet, determine the point on the effort input curve where the effect of the sponge kicks in and produces a perceived discontinuity in output. I'd guess the key is to avoid having the discontinuity occur with low or moderate effort, where it could feel like a loss of control. So you'd either want it to happen only later, with higher effort, or almost immediately with the lightest impact. In other words, with low or moderate effort, you want to be using the sponge either all the time or not at all. Possibly a koto/composite blade like Viscaria with a thin top sheet rubber like Karis manages to engage the sponge immediately and so feels linear at low and moderate speed. Would be interesting to know if Karis loses some of that linear feel with a slower, softer blade.

I don't think it does but at a certain point, you can only make the ball go so slow and get people to miss.

I think (and thoughtsontabletennis has a great entry on this) that having your setup perform as you desire it to over certain ranges of input is the key to blade rubber matching. Of course, an issue is that as you face better players, you may get to see levels of spin and speed that you haven't been exposed yet.
 
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Karis M takes that approach to the limit. It takes a little getting used to, but i love it and it lasts forever.

I doubt any high end pro players would like those rubbers, but then again, they are high end pros. I have been playing nearly my whole life, and I have pretty good and extensively coached technique, I used Tenergy 05 for a decade, and it was a revelation to see what I could gain from rubbers where output is almost perfectly proportional to input. Immediately I noticed I did better on points where I was under pressure. Somewhat later I adjusted technique to regain the ability to apply pressure with the added benefit that the ball stayed on the table more when I went for sharper angles.

Don't tell anyone how Karis last 500 hrs, people might only buy it once or twice a year. The new ITTF laws are supposed to get players to buy 16 sets of new rubbers a year.

Serious though, Baal just clearly articulated the benefits of predicable stable linear equipment. I saw this right off, pretty much my first day using it and I changed two days before the most major US tourney I ever did. Karis isn't the spinniest or fastest, but it controls incoming topspin and I can make my own boatload spin or power as needed.

I use pretty much the same speed class of blade (Kim Jung Hoon) but I feel I have more FEEL and TOUCH with it over other composite blades I like a lot.

I can counter topspin at distance confidently or make heavy spin at the table. The problem with my in-person sales of Karis is players see my heavy spin and block it way out, they try my blade and rubbers - like it a LOT, but never make the same heavy spin I make, so they get disappointed. No biggie, almost no one in the 1800-2300 level range makes the same level of spin I make on openers, whether it is a slow or medium fast shot. I can do all the middle shots easier with Karis, it really helped my game.
 
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