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  1. ajtatosmano2 is offline
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    #261
    Someone knows the exact price of the new DHS D40+ ball? (***) There is a survey by Hungarian Assotiation to seize up what regulations should be done ball-wise in the leagues. Now every team uses what he wants from celluloid to seamless plastic. The main counter-arguments on the plastic balls is that they are egg-shaped, expensive, easily breaking and spinless. If the the new DHS is cheaper than the other ones, then 3 problem is eliminated!
    Last edited by ajtatosmano2; 04-15-2017 at 07:54 PM.

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    #262
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    I could play with the Xu Shaofa, I even had decent results with the Dfish egg. I just hated the DHS egg and its clones. I mean don't get me wrong, I may come to rue the loss of spin, but I am a heavy spin player by nature, I left equipment with more spin to use equipment with more control because I didn't think I was getting an advantage from having extra spinny equipment any more, especially on defence when blocking. So I may not be the right person to speak about loss of spin. For me the spin is enough. I don't try to draw errors from overwhelming spin anymore, I gave up on that two years ago - it's all about consistency, variations and power using the the spin now, variatioms being more about adapting to the opponent and power being about less blocking and more hitting and counterlooping.
    My experience with ABS-type balls is similar to what you describe - the drop in spin, and the difficulty in applying spin vs the reward, results in the most efficient route becoming to concentrate on another approach. I feel that it's one that reduces the focus on over spinning the opponent, and moves more towards taking the ball early and countering with precision and power. I still find that I can get better results with seamless (I can induce a lot more errors via opponents blocking heavy topspin off, for example), but with the harder-feeling ABS I find that any topspin I send out with any height can just be hit through, for the most part. It's a much riskier strategy than it used to be.

    Looking at Niwa v XX, I thought Niwa was taking enormous risks on counters, right from the start. He was aggressive to the point of recklessness, and I thought there was no way such a low-percentage approach would work. But he started to land a few (and they were totally ridiculous - proper all-or-nothing shot selection), and I think it spooked XX. XX relies on application on heavy spin on the FH wing more than most, but wasn't allowed to rally, or even to get to a position where he could start to vary his spin. Niwa took it away from him, and XX didn't have a plan B (or wasn't comfortable applying it against Niwa, who was peaking). And quite apart from XX - Niwa landed some incredible counters - I genuinely LOL'd at 2 or 3 of them because they seemed wildly optimistic, but were just perfection. That is some performance, take nothing away from it.

    I don't think this comes down to ball consistency as such - I think the NP40+ just favors a specific approach to the game, and gives a slight disadvantage to players who have big swings, or play further away from the table. Close-in counter players will feel a bump OTOH. Sure, the ball is the same for everyone, but not everyone will adapt at the same rate, and some players would have to jettison major parts of their game style. Someone like FZD comes into this almost ready-made to suit, but players who rely on spin more feel the impact. I thought Boll would struggle with any plastic ball, and I can't see wider adoption of NP40+ or D40+ helping his cause, but the lack of cut-throat competition pushing from below in Germany has kept him relevant on the national scene. XX does not have that luxury - will he be given time to adapt, or would it be better to concentrate CNT resources on other players with a more suitable playing style? I don't think he will be given much more time if he continues to struggle, but it's only one result in a pretty non-standard tournament, so there is certainly no trend. Just speculation.

    I don't look forward to watching some future match-ups of the same close-in style in the men's game though. Lots of points where a kill is attempted on the 2nd-5th ball, either landing a winner or missing by 10 feet. Not the most interesting type of game to watch.

    I don't mind admitting that I thought the abs ball would totally play into the hands on the CNT women though, barring DN. Here you have the quintessential close-in playstyle at work. Instead you get the emergence of Miu, who looks to have found a way to apply a sense of abandonment to her close-in work. She throws a lot of everything into her shots, and I'm amazed by her ability to recover more than anything else. The CNT players look serene with their short strokes, but Miu brings the blitz. A savage whirlwind. And her serves are very difficult to attack hard - she gains the initiative very early. Can she play at that speed and level for best-of-7 though?

    If nothing else, these are interesting times.

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    #263
    check here ... http://ttnpp.com/store/ ....
    Quote Originally Posted by ajtatosmano2
    Someone knows the exact price of the new DHS D40+ ball? (***) There is a survey by Hungarian Assotiation to seize up what regulations should be done ball-wise in the leagues. Now every team uses what he wants from celluloid to seamless plastic. The main counter-arguments with the plastic ball is that they are egg-shaped, expensive, easily breaking and spinless. If the the new DHS is cheaper than the other ones, then 3 problem is eliminated!

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    #264
    In Marvelous 12 trials, DHS LED table was used in about half of the matches which is not standard and affects the bounce of the Nittaku balls. During the qualification matches of National Games from Mar 23-29, 729 seamless balls were used (a local brand from the host city). Every CNT player who played in ATTC except Zhang Jike was there practicing and playing with the seamless balls. I would say it is CNT's own fault not being fully prepared for ATTC with the standard table and balls.

    Edit:
    BTW, as a commentator of CCTV, Deng Yaping mentioned that she tried out Nittaku balls and felt reduced backspin. Li Sun (Zhu Yuling's coach) also complained about using different balls in adjacent tournaments. Not sure if they can fix the problem in the closed training as most of balls in the training center is DHS 40+ ABS.

    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    The Chinese team used Nittaku for the Marvelous 12 event. They can complain all they want to about the lack of training but they have experience with the ball. I can accept that their trials was not a build up to peak at an event. Their closed training will be a build up to peak at WTTC.

    But in the end, they knew the ball, they have the ball, they have competed internally with the ball, and they have known ABS balls spin less for months. No more eggs.

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    Last edited by rainneverever; 04-15-2017 at 08:06 PM.

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    #265
    Quote Originally Posted by rainneverever
    In Marvelous 12 trials, DHS LED table was used in about half of the matches which is not standard and affects the bounce of the Nittaku balls. During the qualification matches of National Games from Mar 23-29, 729 seamless balls were used (a local brand from the host city). Every CNT player who played in ATTC except Zhang Jike was there practicing and playing with the seamless balls. I would say it is CNT's own fault not being full prepared for ATTC with the standard table and balls.
    It's amazing really that these details aren't more tightly controlled, but perhaps that's more of a statement of the importance (or lack thereof) of the ATTC for the CNT. This is the team that used the Olympic flooring for their Olympic trials, for example. In a world of marginal gains, this kind of disruption on the way into a tournament is asking for trouble.

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    #266
    Quote Originally Posted by AndySmith
    My experience with ABS-type balls is similar to what you describe - the drop in spin, and the difficulty in applying spin vs the reward, results in the most efficient route becoming to concentrate on another approach. I feel that it's one that reduces the focus on over spinning the opponent, and moves more towards taking the ball early and countering with precision and power. I still find that I can get better results with seamless (I can induce a lot more errors via opponents blocking heavy topspin off, for example), but with the harder-feeling ABS I find that any topspin I send out with any height can just be hit through, for the most part. It's a much riskier strategy than it used to be.

    Looking at Niwa v XX, I thought Niwa was taking enormous risks on counters, right from the start. He was aggressive to the point of recklessness, and I thought there was no way such a low-percentage approach would work. But he started to land a few (and they were totally ridiculous - proper all-or-nothing shot selection), and I think it spooked XX. XX relies on application on heavy spin on the FH wing more than most, but wasn't allowed to rally, or even to get to a position where he could start to vary his spin. Niwa took it away from him, and XX didn't have a plan B (or wasn't comfortable applying it against Niwa, who was peaking). And quite apart from XX - Niwa landed some incredible counters - I genuinely LOL'd at 2 or 3 of them because they seemed wildly optimistic, but were just perfection. That is some performance, take nothing away from it.

    I don't think this comes down to ball consistency as such - I think the NP40+ just favors a specific approach to the game, and gives a slight disadvantage to players who have big swings, or play further away from the table. Close-in counter players will feel a bump OTOH. Sure, the ball is the same for everyone, but not everyone will adapt at the same rate, and some players would have to jettison major parts of their game style. Someone like FZD comes into this almost ready-made to suit, but players who rely on spin more feel the impact. I thought Boll would struggle with any plastic ball, and I can't see wider adoption of NP40+ or D40+ helping his cause, but the lack of cut-throat competition pushing from below in Germany has kept him relevant on the national scene. XX does not have that luxury - will he be given time to adapt, or would it be better to concentrate CNT resources on other players with a more suitable playing style? I don't think he will be given much more time if he continues to struggle, but it's only one result in a pretty non-standard tournament, so there is certainly no trend. Just speculation.

    I don't look forward to watching some future match-ups of the same close-in style in the men's game though. Lots of points where a kill is attempted on the 2nd-5th ball, either landing a winner or missing by 10 feet. Not the most interesting type of game to watch.

    I don't mind admitting that I thought the abs ball would totally play into the hands on the CNT women though, barring DN. Here you have the quintessential close-in playstyle at work. Instead you get the emergence of Miu, who looks to have found a way to apply a sense of abandonment to her close-in work. She throws a lot of everything into her shots, and I'm amazed by her ability to recover more than anything else. The CNT players look serene with their short strokes, but Miu brings the blitz. A savage whirlwind. And her serves are very difficult to attack hard - she gains the initiative very early. Can she play at that speed and level for best-of-7 though?

    If nothing else, these are interesting times.
    I disagree with a lot of this, even when agreeing with some of it.

    Most people I know already hit through spin with the seamless balls so I am not sure I agree with this. The thing about the ABS 40+ balls is that they are faster than the seamless balls and the ball trajectories are more in line with celluloid balls. They also bounce lower so I find it easier to serve through the table with them. For me, the height of the seamless balls and their ball trajectories threw off people who backed off the table too far, and for people who played a lot with celluloid, you could sometimes mess them up with slow spin because the ball would sit a bit more. But once people adapted, I was stuck having to defend smashes and banana flicks because of the ball height.

    I have a big swing, the people I play with the most and give me fits have big swings, and the blockers/hitters I know all prefer the Xu Shaofa to the NP40+. The Xu Shaofa ball is consistent, other than durability when it crashes into hard surfaces or suffers high impact collisions, I have no major issues. Where I prefer the NP40+ is that if I back up and wait for the ball, where the ball shows up is where my celluloid instincts tell me it will. With the XuShaofa, I am often looping the ball at my knees.

    The key with the ABS ball is ball height. You can't play a high arcing game with any of the plastic balls vs a serious counterlooper or hitter without picking the ball up, with the exception of the old DHS because it doesn't bounce upwards. But with the NP40+ or the D40+, you have a decent chance of keeping the ball low. No chance with the seamless ball.

    For the away from the table game, I prefer the NP40+ by far, the ball shows up to me, the XSF ball hangs and doesn't show up where it should. Boll is a precision player, any ball that plays consistently helps his game, he is not just about the spin but about the consistency of the rally. Age might take away a bit, but his ability to loop anything makes him a nightmare for everyone. You can look at the Euros and ask how much he has been hurt by the NP40+ in those tournaments.
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    #267
    Quote Originally Posted by ajtatosmano2
    Someone knows the exact price of the new DHS D40+ ball? (***) There is a survey by Hungarian Assotiation to seize up what regulations should be done ball-wise in the leagues. Now every team uses what he wants from celluloid to seamless plastic. The main counter-arguments on the plastic balls is that they are egg-shaped, expensive, easily breaking and spinless. If the the new DHS is cheaper than the other ones, then 3 problem is eliminated!
    The three problems are eliminated. Spinless is a matter of personal preference.
    Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

    "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

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    #268
    Someone recorded that match where Ma Long lost Sangeun Jeong. It is taken with cell phone so quality is reasonable.

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    Last edited by propingpong; 04-15-2017 at 08:44 PM. Reason: wrong iframe

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    #269
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    The three problems are eliminated. Spinless is a matter of personal preference.
    I agree, but this is what people complaining about. I felt that the best if I list everything.

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    #270
    Quote Originally Posted by rainneverever
    In Marvelous 12 trials, DHS LED table was used in about half of the matches which is not standard and affects the bounce of the Nittaku balls. During the qualification matches of National Games from Mar 23-29, 729 seamless balls were used (a local brand from the host city). Every CNT player who played in ATTC except Zhang Jike was there practicing and playing with the seamless balls. I would say it is CNT's own fault not being fully prepared for ATTC with the standard table and balls.

    Edit:
    BTW, as a commentator of CCTV, Deng Yaping mentioned that she tried out Nittaku balls and felt reduced backspin. Li Sun (Zhu Yuling's coach) also complained about using different balls in adjacent tournaments. Not sure if they can fix the problem in the closed training as most of balls in the training center is DHS 40+ ABS.
    Do we know how much time did CNT devote to practice with Nittaku premium? Tjhese balls , correct me if im wrong, are quite a while in the market. I dont think all of the cnt losses are because of the balls, the trials have finished almost 1 month ago so cnt had tons of time to adapt to nittaku premium again.

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    #271
    Be graceful in defeat. Sore loser only makes you look bad.

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    #272
    The scheduled match hours in the ATTC on the ittf site are on chinese time? or GMT 0 ?
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    #273
    The one in ITTF is on Beijing time
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    The scheduled match hours in the ATTC on the ittf site are on chinese time? or GMT 0 ?

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    #274
    Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster
    The one in ITTF is on Beijing time
    thanks!
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    #275
    Fun fact:

    Before HIRANO, the previous Japanese winner was KOYAMA Chire in 1996.
    But actually to Wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chire_Koyama
    "Chire Koyama (小山 ちれ Koyama Chire?), born He Zhili (simplified Chinese: 何智丽; traditional Chinese: 何智麗; pinyin: Hé Zhìlì),[1] (born 30 September 1964, Shanghai, China)[1] is a former table tennis world champion from China[2] who later represented Japan under her current name.

    Representing China, she won the 1987 World Championships in New Delhi, India.[2] However, she left the national team soon after as a result of her decision to not throw away matches to her teammates.[3] The 1987 world championship semi-finals featured 3 Chinese women and the Korean Yang Young-Ja. In the first semi-final, China's Dai Lily led 18-12 in the final set but she blew the lead and lost 21-18 to Yang Young-Ja. It is alleged that the Chinese coaches (Zhang, Xielin) thought that Guan Jianhua had a better chance of beating Yang Young-Ja in the final, and ordered He Zhili to lose the semi-final. She refused to obey the order and won the match. The Chinese coaches had no option but to support her in the final to increase the country's tally of medals. He Zhili was brilliant in the final and beat Yang Young-Ja. But she left the team because of the episode and migrated to Japan."

    Before HIRANO and KOYAMA/HE, the previous (and unique) non-Chinese born winner is EDANO Tomie back all the way in 1974 !!!! Thats how dominant China is !!!!

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    #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Takkyu_wa_inochi
    Fun fact:

    Before HIRANO, the previous Japanese winner was KOYAMA Chire in 1996.
    But actually to Wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chire_Koyama
    "Chire Koyama (小山 ちれ Koyama Chire?), born He Zhili (simplified Chinese: 何智丽; traditional Chinese: 何智麗; pinyin: Hé Zhìlì),[1] (born 30 September 1964, Shanghai, China)[1] is a former table tennis world champion from China[2] who later represented Japan under her current name.

    Representing China, she won the 1987 World Championships in New Delhi, India.[2] However, she left the national team soon after as a result of her decision to not throw away matches to her teammates.[3] The 1987 world championship semi-finals featured 3 Chinese women and the Korean Yang Young-Ja. In the first semi-final, China's Dai Lily led 18-12 in the final set but she blew the lead and lost 21-18 to Yang Young-Ja. It is alleged that the Chinese coaches (Zhang, Xielin) thought that Guan Jianhua had a better chance of beating Yang Young-Ja in the final, and ordered He Zhili to lose the semi-final. She refused to obey the order and won the match. The Chinese coaches had no option but to support her in the final to increase the country's tally of medals. He Zhili was brilliant in the final and beat Yang Young-Ja. But she left the team because of the episode and migrated to Japan."

    Before HIRANO and KOYAMA/HE, the previous (and unique) non-Chinese born winner is EDANO Tomie back all the way in 1974 !!!! Thats how dominant China is !!!!
    Yeah, I read that story before she is now a coach in japan, dont remember on which player I think it is fukuhara
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    #277
    Could not be Ai Fukuhara. There is a recent nice documentary on Fukuhara. http://www.fujitv.co.jp/fukuhara-ai/
    12-year-old Fukuhara once played with 36-year-old Koyama/He and won 1 set. Koyama/He commented that "there are a thousand Chinese kids playing at Ai's level", which made Ai decide to get trained in China.
    Koyama/He's story is complicated. Changing a Chinese family name to a Japanese one is sth big.

    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    Yeah, I read that story before she is now a coach in japan, dont remember on which player I think it is fukuhara

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    #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Takkyu_wa_inochi
    Fun fact:

    Before HIRANO, the previous Japanese winner was KOYAMA Chire in 1996.
    But actually to Wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chire_Koyama
    "Chire Koyama (小山 ちれ Koyama Chire?), born He Zhili (simplified Chinese: 何智丽; traditional Chinese: 何智麗; pinyin: Hé Zhìlì),[1] (born 30 September 1964, Shanghai, China)[1] is a former table tennis world champion from China[2] who later represented Japan under her current name.

    Representing China, she won the 1987 World Championships in New Delhi, India.[2] However, she left the national team soon after as a result of her decision to not throw away matches to her teammates.[3] The 1987 world championship semi-finals featured 3 Chinese women and the Korean Yang Young-Ja. In the first semi-final, China's Dai Lily led 18-12 in the final set but she blew the lead and lost 21-18 to Yang Young-Ja. It is alleged that the Chinese coaches (Zhang, Xielin) thought that Guan Jianhua had a better chance of beating Yang Young-Ja in the final, and ordered He Zhili to lose the semi-final. She refused to obey the order and won the match. The Chinese coaches had no option but to support her in the final to increase the country's tally of medals. He Zhili was brilliant in the final and beat Yang Young-Ja. But she left the team because of the episode and migrated to Japan."

    Before HIRANO and KOYAMA/HE, the previous (and unique) non-Chinese born winner is EDANO Tomie back all the way in 1974 !!!! Thats how dominant China is !!!!
    She had won it quite a few times as a Chinese too:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_..._Championships

    She won in 1988 which needs some explaining given the story.

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    #279
    I am not sure why there is this big fuss over the ball. From my understanding, Miu Hirano was playing faster, stronger and consistently since the last time I saw her. The chinese were simply a tad too slow to catch up with her. Many times they were struggling to reach the ball. Its just a case of great training and match preparation. Remeber she won Japanese National Championship recently. It shows her training , experience in CSL etc are adding up perfectly. Also ML lost because he played very poorly. He looked tired and slow , body language was negative and so on. If ball change is an issue ,now how about FZD ?? Why the ball change has not affected him . He has decimated every opponent so far. And how about ZJK , the poor guy marred with injuries played with great resolve and results have showed up.

    Overall I think many members of CNT this time were not up to their mark, possibly underprepard and also little complacent and that is the main reason they lost. Ball change is a minor factor.

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    Last edited by drunix80; 04-16-2017 at 01:17 AM.

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    #280
    Li Wujun (CCTV sports journalist) posted this photo on Apr 10, saying these balls are used in Wuxi for multi-ball training of CNT. Not sure why they kept using DHS balls even during the tournaments.



    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    Do we know how much time did CNT devote to practice with Nittaku premium? Tjhese balls , correct me if im wrong, are quite a while in the market. I dont think all of the cnt losses are because of the balls, the trials have finished almost 1 month ago so cnt had tons of time to adapt to nittaku premium again.

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