Astounding discovery

Mumon · Apr 25, 2017

Hello forum,

so I visited a newly opened TT shop with my team because they wanted to try out new rubbers such as the the rasanter series etc. .
Since i was and still am quite happy with my setup ( dhs w968,boosted H3 neo national in 2.15 39deg and a Tenergy 80) I decided to tag along just for fun.
The shop staff asked me if I wanted to try anything and referred me to to 2 giant drawers full of premade bats with all kinds of rubbers and blades. Not wanting to miss out on that opportunity I picked one at random. what I got was some TSP speed blade with TSP basic? on the backhand and a 2.0 TSP Ventus speed on the forehand.
Now this is where things got interesting, when I started looping away from the table it quickly dawned on me. This rubber felt eerily similar to my boosted h3. At first I was dumbfounded and denied the possibility that it could match the h3 in output speed and spin. I had no choice but to whip out my own blade and do a head to head comparison. The rubber played ok whilst using a european technique where as the h3 didnt work at all. But when i switched to my main(chinese) style both setups performed equally good. Me as a certified EJ did what every EJ would have done at this point. I went and did a whole training session at the shop(after asking if it was ok with the staff

. And after standing there sweating, looking at the rubber in my hand, staring in disbelieve, I came to the conclusion that It is every bit as good as a boosted h3 national (blue sponge) and in some aspects ( close to the table looping and drivng) it even surpasses it. I believe it is due to the slightly softer sponge.

This whole scenario felt very weird to me since I did not want to accept that some random 38 euro rubber can outdo the epitome of all rubbers, but the facts left me no choice.

Since my h3 will need replacing in a while i will give the ventus speed a shot, but not in 2.0 but in 2.3. I hope some of you can test it and tell me what they think. I for one felt like sharing this discovery with this awesome community!

peace!

Archosaurus · Apr 25, 2017

I think you're missing the point somewhat. I've not used either rubber, but hear me out.

I've been led to believe that tacky, hard sponge rubbers like H3 require advanced over the table skills and very fast swing speed to really shine. We amateurs don't have those. Softer sponge rubbers, and especially tensor rubbers might perform much better in our hands because they have different requirements for high performance.

I've also been led to believe that market H3 and the "epitome of all rubbers" that the pros use is different, not to be compared to each other. I don't know myself if we can really use National H3 or if they're all fakes or whatever, someone else can talk about that. Let's assume you're not using Ma Long's personal rubber on his blade.

Anyway, it doesn't sound very surprising that you got better performance with possibly a higher production quality, easier to use, much more amateur friendly rubber.

This reminds me of stories of racecar drivers driving on the same tire, in the same race series, in a very similar car, and one driver with bad technique who overuses the tires and overdrives the car complains that the tire is crap, wears out fast and doesn't grip well, while the other with good technique talks about how grippy the tire is and how long it lasts at full potential.

Who is right?

Mumon · Apr 25, 2017

Archosaurus said:
I think you're missing the point somewhat. I've not used either rubber, but hear me out.

I've been led to believe that tacky, hard sponge rubbers like H3 require advanced over the table skills and very fast swing speed to really shine. We amateurs don't have those. Softer sponge rubbers, and especially tensor rubbers might perform much better in our hands because they have different requirements for high performance.

I've also been led to believe that market H3 and the "epitome of all rubbers" that the pros use is different, not to be compared to each other. I don't know myself if we can really use National H3 or if they're all fakes or whatever, someone else can talk about that. Let's assume you're not using Ma Long's personal rubber on his blade.

Anyway, it doesn't sound very surprising that you got better performance with possibly a higher production quality, easier to use, much more amateur friendly rubber.

This reminds me of stories of racecar drivers driving on the same tire, in the same race series, in a very similar car, and one driver with bad technique who overuses the tires and overdrives the car complains that the tire is crap, wears out fast and doesn't grip well, while the other with good technique talks about how grippy the tire is and how long it lasts at full potential.

Who is right?

While I understand what you are saying, I dont think thats it for 2 reasons:

1. I have tried a ton of "forgiving" amateur friendly rubbers and none of them have felt like I could hit like I wanted to since theve bottomed out on me. even the mighty T05 felt somewhat lacking on the forehand since i am more of a power player than spin oriented ( due to the ball changes).

2. I dare say I perform decent with the H3. It responds well to my form and I dont find it lacking in any way. However, the thing i was so suprised about was that with that exact same stroke that makes very good use of the h3s ample power and spin, I get the same result with the Ventus speed. normal ESN rubbers dont even get the ball on the table when i hit through the ball since their throw angles are rather high.

I hope I could clarify some points!

ps. I am in no way comparing myself to Ma Long haha

peace!

Archosaurus · Apr 25, 2017

Ah, so you're more so saying that you've found a rubber that, for you, produces a very good result that's comparable to "the best"? That's different from what I originally read.

Well, if it's a cheap rubber and it's perfect for you, then you've got really lucky.

SilentRain · Apr 25, 2017

@Mumon, I think i might have to disagree with you. While I have not tried a H3 national Blue sponge, I have tried commercial H3 neo boosted and unboosted as well as a with range of TSP rubbers including TSP ventus speed. And I would personally take an unboosted H3neo anyday than a TSP ventus speed. To me the TSP ventus is a good rubber for its price but its rather "Meh" in my opinion. To me, I've found nothing special about it compared to other rubbers at that price. On the other hand, I was able to get significantly more speed and spin with the H3 neo if I used proper technique. And this opinion is shared by my other training buddy from Hong Kong and my local coach who is a fan of Yasaka.

Unless TSP ventus speed has drasticly changed over the past few months, maybe the reason you like TSP ventus speed more is due to:
A) EJ virus, trying something new and thinking its amazing when its actually not
B) You're H3 national BS is not real so it plays worse than normal H3
C) Technique issue? Unable to unlock full potential of H3?
D) TSP Ventus speed is just more suited for your stlye. Thus it performs better than H3
E) You got a really really good batch of TSP ventus speed

Whatever the reason, if you like it. I dont see any harm getting the TSP rubber if you play better with it. Its cheaper than H3 National BS IMO.

Mumon · Apr 25, 2017

SilentRain said:
@Mumon, I think i might have to disagree with you. While I have not tried a H3 national Blue sponge, I have tried commercial H3 neo boosted and unboosted as well as a with range of TSP rubbers including TSP ventus speed. And I would personally take an unboosted H3neo anyday than a TSP ventus speed. To me the TSP ventus is a good rubber for its price but its rather "Meh" in my opinion. To me, I've found nothing special about it compared to other rubbers at that price. On the other hand, I was able to get significantly more speed and spin with the H3 neo if I used proper technique. And this opinion is shared by my other training buddy from Hong Kong and my local coach who is a fan of Yasaka.

Unless TSP ventus speed has drasticly changed over the past few months, maybe the reason you like TSP ventus speed more is due to:
A) EJ virus, trying something new and thinking its amazing when its actually not
B) You're H3 national BS is not real so it plays worse than normal H3
C) Technique issue? Unable to unlock full potential of H3?
D) TSP Ventus speed is just more suited for your stlye. Thus it performs better than H3
E) You got a really really good batch of TSP ventus speed

Whatever the reason, if you like it. I dont see any harm getting the TSP rubber if you play better with it. Its cheaper than H3 National BS IMO.

you have some interesting points. I will try to answer in that order.

A)I usually stick with my equipment although I have tried a LOT, one of the reasons why this whole case is so peculiar to me.
B)I have verified my rubbers through a secure channel so I can say that theyre about 99% real. I also started out with commercial h3neos first unboosted then boosted and they play significantly worse that the national one.
C)That may very well be. I believe I can draw out a good extent of its power but maybe theres more to unlock.
D)That would be the most reasonable thing to assume. However it does not explain to me why my technique, which is the furthest thing from euro/jap works so well with it
E)maybe it was a legendary batch haha

yes it is WAY cheaper than the national h3 and less time consuming since you dont need to boost it.

peace!

SilentRain · Apr 25, 2017

Peace!

Mumon · Apr 25, 2017

SilentRain said:
Peace!

peace indeed!

SFF_lib · Apr 25, 2017

Mumon said:
Hello forum,

so I visited a newly opened TT shop with my team because they wanted to try out new rubbers such as the the rasanter series etc. .
Since i was and still am quite happy with my setup ( dhs w968,boosted H3 neo national in 2.15 39deg and a Tenergy 80) I decided to tag along just for fun.
The shop staff asked me if I wanted to try anything and referred me to to 2 giant drawers full of premade bats with all kinds of rubbers and blades. Not wanting to miss out on that opportunity I picked one at random. what I got was some TSP speed blade with TSP basic? on the backhand and a 2.0 TSP Ventus speed on the forehand.
Now this is where things got interesting, when I started looping away from the table it quickly dawned on me. This rubber felt eerily similar to my boosted h3. At first I was dumbfounded and denied the possibility that it could match the h3 in output speed and spin. I had no choice but to whip out my own blade and do a head to head comparison. The rubber played ok whilst using a european technique where as the h3 didnt work at all. But when i switched to my main(chinese) style both setups performed equally good. Me as a certified EJ did what every EJ would have done at this point. I went and did a whole training session at the shop(after asking if it was ok with the staff . And after standing there sweating, looking at the rubber in my hand, staring in disbelieve, I came to the conclusion that It is every bit as good as a boosted h3 national (blue sponge) and in some aspects ( close to the table looping and drivng) it even surpasses it. I believe it is due to the slightly softer sponge.

This whole scenario felt very weird to me since I did not want to accept that some random 38 euro rubber can outdo the epitome of all rubbers, but the facts left me no choice.

Since my h3 will need replacing in a while i will give the ventus speed a shot, but not in 2.0 but in 2.3. I hope some of you can test it and tell me what they think. I for one felt like sharing this discovery with this awesome community!

peace!

Interesting. Venus speed is a non-tacky rubber with a medium-hard sponge. I guess it's short game woundn't be as good as H3N.

Sent from my WAS-LX2 using Tapatalk

Mumon · Apr 27, 2017

SFF_lib said:
Interesting. Venus speed is a non-tacky rubber with a medium-hard sponge. I guess it's short game woundn't be as good as H3N.

Sent from my WAS-LX2 using Tapatalk

yeah the bounce of pushes is a tad higher.

peace!

ttmonster · Apr 27, 2017

I have hurricane 8 mid soft on my forehand and MX-P on my backhand , I absolutely have no problem in hitting forehand loops in case I rotate them by mistake or even when just to try out if I can switch back to my original Tenergy 05 combination on both sides. I believe if you have built in enough safety in your forehand looping technique that is coming around the ball etc., it hardly matters what rubber you use . But , definitely serve and short game will have some difference , even that can be adapted to with a few days practice ... I would like to think the place where it will need really adapting is how to flick or handle no spin balls , there the difference will get magnified , as long as there is spin in the ball and you are either overpowering or adding to the spin , if your technique is good enough it should not matter .

Mumon · Apr 27, 2017

ttmonster said:
I have hurricane 8 mid soft on my forehand and MX-P on my backhand , I absolutely have no problem in hitting forehand loops in case I rotate them by mistake or even when just to try out if I can switch back to my original Tenergy 05 combination on both sides. I believe if you have built in enough safety in your forehand looping technique that is coming around the ball etc., it hardly matters what rubber you use . But , definitely serve and short game will have some difference , even that can be adapted to with a few days practice ... I would like to think the place where it will need really adapting is how to flick or handle no spin balls , there the difference will get magnified , as long as there is spin in the ball and you are either overpowering or adding to the spin , if your technique is good enough it should not matter .

You are definetly not wrong about that. Btw. how hard is a h8 mid soft? All i know is mid hard and hard.

peace!

ajtatosmano2 · Apr 27, 2017

I've come across this stage myself as well with an Omega IV Asia. But after coming through the OIV-A and an MX-P on my forehand side, I came back to the H3 (I have 'only' a commercial Neo version). Unfortunately the last one is pretty old and with decreased spin it's not that good. And my wallet is literally empty, so no replacement for a while.
I suggest to either buy a Ventus if you like or buy a H3 Provincial 39 degree. Cheaper, softer (than a National).

ttmonster · Apr 27, 2017

Mid soft is not that hard , I have not tried the hard version but a couple of days back I was playing with this guy who has tried hard and he could switch from his Viscaria - MXP setup to my ZJK ALC - H8 Mid Soft setup without any issues , atleast in looping , infact I felt his opening loops were spinnier with Mid Soft compared to MX-P . Its all about getting the right technique ...

my reading of your situation is that you have improved your forehand technique to the point where changing from H3 to Ventus does not result in a noticable change in your looping effectiveness , however, you should see whether the other parts of your game gets affected , spin in your serves, serve receives are more important areas compared to looping because they come into play before you start looping

Mumon said:
You are definetly not wrong about that. Btw. how hard is a h8 mid soft? All i know is mid hard and hard.

peace!

NextLevel · Apr 27, 2017

TPS Ventus is a Japanese rubber probably from the Daiku factory that makes Stiga, TSP, Nexy etc rubbers - what you are experiencing is probably similar to how I feel when I use Nexy Karis next to H3 and a tensor - tensor is too jumpy, H3 is too slow/lacking in spin for what I like to do but Karis feels right. I agree with a lot of what everyone has posted here. The most important thing is to know yourself and what you like. I can loop with say H3 for 2 mins and feel good, but when I switch to Karis, I immediately see the difference, but when I push with a tacky rubber like H3, I can do things that some would call down right evil like get long balls to double bounce or push heavy topspin short.

TTFrenzy · Apr 27, 2017

Mumon said:
Hello forum,

so I visited a newly opened TT shop with my team because they wanted to try out new rubbers such as the the rasanter series etc. .
Since i was and still am quite happy with my setup ( dhs w968,boosted H3 neo national in 2.15 39deg and a Tenergy 80) I decided to tag along just for fun.
The shop staff asked me if I wanted to try anything and referred me to to 2 giant drawers full of premade bats with all kinds of rubbers and blades. Not wanting to miss out on that opportunity I picked one at random. what I got was some TSP speed blade with TSP basic? on the backhand and a 2.0 TSP Ventus speed on the forehand.
Now this is where things got interesting, when I started looping away from the table it quickly dawned on me. This rubber felt eerily similar to my boosted h3. At first I was dumbfounded and denied the possibility that it could match the h3 in output speed and spin. I had no choice but to whip out my own blade and do a head to head comparison. The rubber played ok whilst using a european technique where as the h3 didnt work at all. But when i switched to my main(chinese) style both setups performed equally good. Me as a certified EJ did what every EJ would have done at this point. I went and did a whole training session at the shop(after asking if it was ok with the staff . And after standing there sweating, looking at the rubber in my hand, staring in disbelieve, I came to the conclusion that It is every bit as good as a boosted h3 national (blue sponge) and in some aspects ( close to the table looping and drivng) it even surpasses it. I believe it is due to the slightly softer sponge.

This whole scenario felt very weird to me since I did not want to accept that some random 38 euro rubber can outdo the epitome of all rubbers, but the facts left me no choice.

Since my h3 will need replacing in a while i will give the ventus speed a shot, but not in 2.0 but in 2.3. I hope some of you can test it and tell me what they think. I for one felt like sharing this discovery with this awesome community!

peace!

there is no best rubber/blade but the combo that suits your game the best. people especially on the net worry too much about equipment whereas they should worry more about their technique, shot selection, tactics,serves/receives and so on.

TT companies like any other company will lie inyourface just to sell more products and lets be honest, most people play with H3 because the top chinese use it. There is a great variety of rubbers out there and the only reason an amateur like us should buy a tenergy or H3 is the money/duration ratio and nothing more

The speed and spin of an amateur rookie or recreational player , technique wise does not use full potential of top rubbers , but some people dont want to admit that

cognitive dissonance at its finest

p.s. also being an EJ for years, sometimes its just the change of equipment that thrills you but after many experiments you can identify when that is happening

Mumon · Apr 29, 2017

ttmonster said:
Mid soft is not that hard , I have not tried the hard version but a couple of days back I was playing with this guy who has tried hard and he could switch from his Viscaria - MXP setup to my ZJK ALC - H8 Mid Soft setup without any issues , atleast in looping , infact I felt his opening loops were spinnier with Mid Soft compared to MX-P . Its all about getting the right technique ...

my reading of your situation is that you have improved your forehand technique to the point where changing from H3 to Ventus does not result in a noticable change in your looping effectiveness , however, you should see whether the other parts of your game gets affected , spin in your serves, serve receives are more important areas compared to looping because they come into play before you start looping

H8 Mid soft sounds nice from what you write. And yes my Serves using the the H3 are lethal, whereas the ventus produces good serves at best.

peace!

Mumon · Apr 29, 2017

TTFrenzy said:
there is no best rubber/blade but the combo that suits your game the best. people especially on the net worry too much about equipment whereas they should worry more about their technique, shot selection, tactics,serves/receives and so on.

TT companies like any other company will lie inyourface just to sell more products and lets be honest, most people play with H3 because the top chinese use it. There is a great variety of rubbers out there and the only reason an amateur like us should buy a tenergy or H3 is the money/duration ratio and nothing more

The speed and spin of an amateur rookie or recreational player , technique wise does not use full potential of top rubbers , but some people dont want to admit that cognitive dissonance at its finest

p.s. also being an EJ for years, sometimes its just the change of equipment that thrills you but after many experiments you can identify when that is happening

You are absolutely correct about the reason i use the H3. However I have a slightly different reasoning while doing so. I see the Top Chinese play--> I want to be able to do those strokes.-->I can do the same movement in the same situation with the same velocity since I am quite athletic--> I will NOT be able to reproduce these strokes every time, since consistency is the difference that training makes--> I trained a fraction of the Chinese--> I play for the moments it works since that brings a big grin to my face and makes me truly happy-->I need that equipment for that to work.

I know its not the smart way to play but my way

peace!

TTFrenzy · Apr 30, 2017

Mumon said:
You are absolutely correct about the reason i use the H3. However I have a slightly different reasoning while doing so. I see the Top Chinese play--> I want to be able to do those strokes.-->I can do the same movement in the same situation with the same velocity since I am quite athletic--> I will NOT be able to reproduce these strokes every time, since consistency is the difference that training makes--> I trained a fraction of the Chinese--> I play for the moments it works since that brings a big grin to my face and makes me truly happy-->I need that equipment for that to work.

I know its not the smart way to play but my way

peace!

Yes you are doing it consiously thats really good for you

I see lots of players who fail to understand that proper equipment magnifies your potential in an "analogical manner" (I believe one cannot accurately measure it but I will give it a try below) and they change equipment after some devastating losses instead of focusing on quality training

So if a player with poor or ineffective technique lets say produces (hypothetically speaking) 1000rpm in his topspin and a tenergy rubber gives 20 % boost his topspin will have 1200 rpm

A player with perfect technique will produce double or even triple that amount lets say 2500 rpm (hypothetically speaking again) with a tenergy he will produce 3000 rpm

Quite devastating difference.

Now a good player with a 5 % boost (a cheap crappy rubber compared to the tenergy) will still be better in his topspin, the difference will be that with the 5 % rubber the good player will probably need not one but two topspins to penetrate another's player defense and finish the point, so he will still be better no matter the equipment but it will be harder for him to finish off a point.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 30, 2017

I think, the bottom line is that a lot of times people try to use what the pros use. But when your technique is not pro level technique and there is equipment that would work better for you than what the pros use, then you are better off in the long run using what will be better for you.

H3 is a very forgiving rubber. You can use it when your technique is not great. But you will not get from it what it is meant to give you.

Unless a player is at a decently high level, the general tendency for players is to use equipment that is more than will be useful for them. So, a slower blade with more spin and control, a slower rubber with good control, are often I useful changes in equipment. But most EJs who keep switching stuff around are doing it without intelligent reasoning behind the changes and often they are simply trying things that are too fast and won't help them improve their technique.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

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