Ma Long the GOAT?

RidTheKid · Jun 8, 2017

If I'm not mistaken Ma Long has the highest winning % of played matches as well as gathering all the other accolades. He has plus stats against every player he's met more than once. There has never been a more complete player - and a no brainer for the GOAT.

NextLevel · Jun 8, 2017

Dima was the top player on Jiangsu when he was healthy. He went the next year injured and had a bad year so people now dwell on that, forgetting how deeply international stars are studied for weaknesses in China. One can argue that the real strength of China is the coaching intelligence. Saive told the story in his podcast of being up 3-1 on Chen Qi. Unfortunately for Saive, Liu Guoliang had just finished coaching another match and arrived to coach Chen Qi. Like magic, Chen Qi came back to win 4-3.

rainneverever · Jun 8, 2017

http://ittfstats.alfaweb.gr/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=45&Itemid=179
Have you guys checked this website? I wish they can include match records before 2008 in the future. They provide match records since 2008 till April 2017, both singles and doubles. I listed WR1-11 before 2017 WTTC (after WTTC, Fang Bo and Koki Niwa switched).

For MS, only ML wins over 90%. FZD, XX, ZJK and TB all win over 80%, with FZD and TB playing fewer than 300 matches. No wonder TB is always considered as a tier 1 rival for CNT.
For MD, only XX plays over 200 matches and wins 87%, followed by ML, ZJK, FZD.

	Total	Wins (%)	MS	Wins (%)	MD	Wins (%)
ML	521	465 (89%)	366	334 (91%)	155	131 (85%)
FZD	324	279 (86%)	221	195 (88%)	103	84 (82%)
XX	577	496 (86%)	373	318 (85%)	204	178 (87%)
ZJK	498	410 (82%)	311	255 (82%)	187	155 (83%)
DO	400	283 (71%)	353	263 (75%)	47	20 (43%)
JM	419	314 (75%)	338	256 (76%)	81	58 (72%)
WCT	464	278 (60%)	332	201 (61%)	132	77 (58%)
TB	298	241 (81%)	263	215 (82%)	35	26 (74%)
FB	186	146 (78%)	101	80 (79%)	85	66 (78%)
CCY	515	327 (63%)	374	248 (66%)	141	79 (56%)
KN	592	403 (68%)	405	281 (69%)	187	122 (65%)

TTFrenzy · Jun 8, 2017

tropical said:
Just look at achievement in tournaments (small to big, local to international, trivial or non-trivial), ML is definitely better than anyone else (perhaps except one penholder Chinese that I don't recall.) These are facts to consider, not opinions because opinions are just opinions. He has achieved a lot more than Waldner who many non-Chinese consider the GOAT.

opinions are opinions yes, but you cant compare different eras. that is a fact also, waldner had longevity which many forget and you cant judge two different players with the same criteria of today's game it is simply impossible to make an accurate comparison

Innovation cannot be measured by titles, that is a fact also, wang hao "forever loser" yet his contribution to the sport is immense, RPB would not even exist in its form today if it wasnt for wang hao, all the new penholders are copycats, same goes for every innovative player whether its klampar,waldner,ma long zhang jike malin wlq you name it, people will copy the past and try to evolve it and get it to the next level

Results of the future cannot be compared with results of the past, the future learned from the past, avoided its mistakes and tries to find effectiveness to reach perfection

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

RidTheKid · Jun 8, 2017

Agreed. And you also have to take in consideration that Ma Long will be replaced by someone younger from the CNT if he starts losing matches against them regularly. Waldner never faced that fierce internal competition here in Sweden because there was not enough quality competition.

TTFrenzy said:
opinions are opinions yes, but you cant compare different eras. that is a fact also, waldner had longevity which many forget and you cant judge two different players with the same criteria of today's game it is simply impossible to make an accurate comparison

Innovation cannot be measured by titles, that is a fact also, wang hao "forever loser" yet his contribution to the sport is immense, RPB would not even exist in its form today if it wasnt for wang hao, all the new penholders are copycats, same goes for every innovative player whether its klampar,waldner,ma long zhang jike malin wlq you name it, people will copy the past and try to evolve it and get it to the next level

Results of the future cannot be compared with results of the past, the future learned from the past, avoided its mistakes and tries to find effectiveness to reach perfection

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

tropical · Jun 9, 2017

TTFrenzy said:
opinions are opinions yes, but you cant compare different eras. that is a fact also, waldner had longevity which many forget and you cant judge two different players with the same criteria of today's game it is simply impossible to make an accurate comparison

Innovation cannot be measured by titles, that is a fact also, wang hao "forever loser" yet his contribution to the sport is immense, RPB would not even exist in its form today if it wasnt for wang hao, all the new penholders are copycats, same goes for every innovative player whether its klampar,waldner,ma long zhang jike malin wlq you name it, people will copy the past and try to evolve it and get it to the next level

Results of the future cannot be compared with results of the past, the future learned from the past, avoided its mistakes and tries to find effectiveness to reach perfection

"If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

How do we define GOAT? Based on your reasoning then there is no GOAT, correct? If it is true then your reasoning is just another opinion.

tropical · Jun 9, 2017

rainneverever said:
http://ittfstats.alfaweb.gr/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=45&Itemid=179
Have you guys checked this website? I wish they can include match records before 2008 in the future. They provide match records since 2008 till April 2017, both singles and doubles. I listed WR1-11 before 2017 WTTC (after WTTC, Fang Bo and Koki Niwa switched).

For MS, only ML wins over 90%. FZD, XX, ZJK and TB all win over 80%, with FZD and TB playing fewer than 300 matches. No wonder TB is always considered as a tier 1 rival for CNT.
For MD, only XX plays over 200 matches and wins 87%, followed by ML, ZJK, FZD.

Total Wins (%) MS Wins (%) MD Wins (%)
ML 521 465 (89%) 366 334 (91%) 155 131 (85%)
FZD 324 279 (86%) 221 195 (88%) 103 84 (82%)
XX 577 496 (86%) 373 318 (85%) 204 178 (87%)
ZJK 498 410 (82%) 311 255 (82%) 187 155 (83%)
DO 400 283 (71%) 353 263 (75%) 47 20 (43%)
JM 419 314 (75%) 338 256 (76%) 81 58 (72%)
WCT 464 278 (60%) 332 201 (61%) 132 77 (58%)
TB 298 241 (81%) 263 215 (82%) 35 26 (74%)
FB 186 146 (78%) 101 80 (79%) 85 66 (78%)
CCY 515 327 (63%) 374 248 (66%) 141 79 (56%)
KN 592 403 (68%) 405 281 (69%) 187 122 (65%)

I like this chart. It clearly proves who the GOAT is! Do we have data for Waldner? To be fair we need to use data during his prime, not after he got too old; i.e. >30yo.

TTFrenzy · Jun 9, 2017

tropical said:
How do we define GOAT? Based on your reasoning then there is no GOAT, correct? If it is true then your reasoning is just another opinion.

I stated facts. Stating facts and expressing favoritism over a player is a different thing. It would be an opinion if such a matter was relevant to once personal taste and preference. You cant compare future and the past with the same criteria to make an accurate comparison, that is a fact not an opinion.

Based only on results, yes ML is the best ever (oh wait he still needs a silver olympic medal to reach zhang jike

), but results isnt everything. People favor a player for many different reasons, thats why we still like samsonov boll and karakasevic even though they are at their 40ies. There is also the age gap between eras, jiang jialiang was a beast yet almost no one talks about him because he was pre waldner era

Why should we define GOAT anyway? Whats the purpose or profit besides some crazy fans claiming their favorite player is the goat whether is waldner ma long or who ever. In the end it is nothing more than self reassuring fans who want their favorite player to be the best ever,

Its the same stupid pointless thing with lebron vs jordan comparison saying lebron is the GOAT because he has better statistics rofl .

Differente teams, different playstyle, different knowledge of the game it is simply uncomparable

ttmonster · Jun 9, 2017

"He is one of the all time greats" ... is a much better qualifier and also helps in avoiding discussions that inevitably lead to disrespecting the achievements of other players ..

TTFrenzy said:
I stated facts. Stating facts and expressing favoritism over a player is a different thing. It would be an opinion if such a matter was relevant to once personal taste and preference. You cant compare future and the past with the same criteria to make an accurate comparison, that is a fact not an opinion.

Based only on results, yes ML is the best ever (oh wait he still needs a silver olympic medal to reach zhang jike ), but results isnt everything. People favor a player for many different reasons, thats why we still like samsonov boll and karakasevic even though they are at their 40ies. There is also the age gap between eras, jiang jialiang was a beast yet almost no one talks about him because he was pre waldner era

Why should we define GOAT anyway? Whats the purpose or profit besides some crazy fans claiming their favorite player is the goat whether is waldner ma long or who ever. In the end it is nothing more than self reassuring fans who want their favorite player to be the best ever,

Its the same stupid pointless thing with lebron vs jordan comparison saying lebron is the GOAT because he has better statistics rofl .

Differente teams, different playstyle, different knowledge of the game it is simply uncomparable

Baal · Jun 9, 2017

tropical said:
I like this chart. It clearly proves who the GOAT is! Do we have data for Waldner? To be fair we need to use data during his prime, not after he got too old; i.e. >30yo.

I think this is interesting too. I don't have data like this for Waldner, just faulty memory. But Waldner could lose sometimes to people who weren't at the same level as he was, especially in tournaments that weren't so important (but sometimes even in WTTC team events). Ma Long is in my view more utterly dominant. It is extremely unusual for him to lose to someone who is not a CNT player more or less adjacent to him in the world rankings. Actually, before Ma Long, one of my previous GOAT candidates was WLQ. The guy was ranked #1 in the world for 48 straight months.

A few years ago people were asking if Ma Long was GOAT before he had won anything real significant, just based on his amazing technique. I thought that was crazy at that time (since ZJK was on his amazing run), but it certainly shows the results of the "eye test". And now, Ma Long has a run of great wins to show for it.

All time is a long time. Different eras and all that. But my vote is for Ma Long, recognizing that a lot of people will think differently. I am not intending to demean any other great players but making my choice. I do personally think there is a lot of Waldner reverence that approaches religion that I find a bit overblown sometimes.

TTFrenzy · Jun 9, 2017

Baal said:
I think this is interesting too. I don't have data like this for Waldner, just faulty memory. But Waldner could lose sometimes to people who weren't at the same level as he was, especially in tournaments that weren't so important (but sometimes even in WTTC team events). Ma Long is in my view more utterly dominant. It is extremely unusual for him to lose to someone who is not a CNT player more or less adjacent to him in the world rankings. Actually, before Ma Long, one of my previous GOAT candidates was WLQ. The guy was ranked #1 in the world for 48 straight months.

A few years ago people were asking if Ma Long was GOAT before he had won anything real significant, just based on his amazing technique. I thought that was crazy at that time (since ZJK was on his amazing run), but it certainly shows the results of the "eye test". And now, Ma Long has a run of great wins to show for it.

All time is a long time. Different eras and all that. But my vote is for Ma Long, recognizing that a lot of people will think differently. I am not intending to demean any other great players but making my choice. I do personally think there is a lot of Waldner reverence that approaches religion that I find a bit overblown sometimes.

ML's losses to non cnt members through the years are not even 10-15 If im not mistaken, counting his 2005-6 appearances in pro tours which of course were of no importance since he participated mostly for experience gaining

japan open 2005 loss to ruy 4-3

german open 2005 or 06 loss to vladi 4-3 again (but won against boll If I remember correctly)

loss to 2008 world cup and 2010 team wtttc against timo boll

loss to samsonov in world cup 2009 semifinal

loss to koki niwa in olympic trials 2012, loss to CCY in world cup 2012 and then clinching the title 4-0, loss to lee sang su in korea open 2012

loss to joo sae huyk in 2007 wttc round of 16 or 32 cant remember correctly, the CNT coaches then believed that he could defeat Joo because they studied him very well but ML was frustrated from the pace and placement variation making many unforced errors

So I maybe forget 2-3 losses but if we check the results of other legends WLQ,ML WH, they had definitely worst double or even triple the record of ML when they were at his age and in total

Ma ling lost to mizu and robinot at the end of his career, WLQ to noshad alaimyan and filimon in wtttc 2008 and wang hao to chen weixing in 2003 kreanga in 2002 etc etc. We have never seen ma long struggling not giving up a single set since 2010 world teams (loss 3-2 against timo) against foreigners which is quite a unique achievement

Definitely comparable and why not better if he keeps doing it , to waldners 3-0 win in 1997 wttc but in singles even which is much harder.

p.s. note that wang liqin participated in europe's champions league for two years If I remember correctly and he didnt have an easy task because at that time europe had still some legends at their peak (kreanga, waldner persson, samsonov, boll on the rising, gatien, saive brothers , damien eloi, peter karlsson,rosskopf etc etc)

rainneverever · Jun 9, 2017

Just a correction. WLQ was ranked WR#1 for 56 months in total and for 26 months in a row. WH was ranked WR#1 for 34 months in total and for 27 months in a row. But now ML set the new record, 58 months in total and 28 months in a row.

I shall update tables in my other thread of the stats of CNT/non-CNT players.

Baal said:
I think this is interesting too. I don't have data like this for Waldner, just faulty memory. But Waldner could lose sometimes to people who weren't at the same level as he was, especially in tournaments that weren't so important (but sometimes even in WTTC team events). Ma Long is in my view more utterly dominant. It is extremely unusual for him to lose to someone who is not a CNT player more or less adjacent to him in the world rankings. Actually, before Ma Long, one of my previous GOAT candidates was WLQ. The guy was ranked #1 in the world for 48 straight months.

anchorschmidt · Jun 9, 2017

Ok, god save me, I'm entering this discussion. My 0.02$. I don't think people put Waldner as the greatest because of his statistics but purely because he was just so damn cool (and because of his titles). No further intellectualization necessary

Statistically, I think Ma Long will look better almost whichever way you put it. He's just amazingly consistent, which is really hard. All top pros struggle with injuries, fatigue etc. but except for the Chinese Superleague, Ma Long looks unbeatable on the World Tour.

I also think that Waldner and the entire earlier generation faced stiffer competition. To quote myself from an earlier post:

Wang Hao had to deal with growing as a player while Ma Lin and Wang Liqin were at their best and then he had to fight against ZJK and Ma Long shortly after he starting playing his best table tennis (2009). He had to fight against 2 different generations, so to speak, and still made so many finals, which speaks volumes of his greatness as a player.

Ma Long, on the other hand, belongs to the same generation as Zhang Jike and Xu Xin. However, unlike WLQ and Ma Lin ( H2H 23-24), he has been dominant against his compatriots. ZJK hasn't been consistent and Xu Xin took a really long time to bring his backhand to where it should be. This is no fault of Ma Long's but it makes him seem more unbeatable than he really is as his teammates were not able to improve as quickly as they should have and it gave him a slightly easier time on the World Tour.

I can see myself getting roasted for saying this but at least I can hide behind my keyboard on the internet. I'm not saying that Ma Long's achievements should be undermined. I just want to say that he faced less stiff competition compared to the earlier WLQ-Ma Lin generation, who were both crushing foreign players as badly as Ma Long is right now but were true competitors.

His titles reflect this as well. Ma Long faced Fang Bo in the finals of the WTTC, faced a ZJK who was nowhere near his best in the Olympics and faced his junior Fan Zhendong in the World Cup. For me personally (and I might get roasted for this again), his world's title would have been sweeter if he had actually beaten Wang Hao and ZJK when they were close to their best in 2011. He was world number 1 the entire year in 2010 and was capable of doing so but he didn't.

His game was definitely not perfect prior to 2015. Wang Hao has shown multiple times that Ma Long can be beaten using clever tactics. Zhang Jike has also made Ma Long look beatable in the 2014 World Cup, 2015 German open and the China trials for the Olympics in 2016. When Xu Xin started to trust his backhand more, he was able to beat Ma Long twice in a row in 2016 and looked every bit his equal.

I think only now Fan Zhendong is at a level where he can compete against Ma Long without a coach but it's going to be unfair again. Ma Long is going to be 29 and it would be unfair to compare a peak-level Fan Zhendong in his early twenties to Ma Long in his early thirties. Pretty fascinating if Ma Long can keep denying him.

NextLevel · Jun 9, 2017

Baal said:
I think this is interesting too. I don't have data like this for Waldner, just faulty memory. But Waldner could lose sometimes to people who weren't at the same level as he was, especially in tournaments that weren't so important (but sometimes even in WTTC team events). Ma Long is in my view more utterly dominant. It is extremely unusual for him to lose to someone who is not a CNT player more or less adjacent to him in the world rankings. Actually, before Ma Long, one of my previous GOAT candidates was WLQ. The guy was ranked #1 in the world for 48 straight months.

A few years ago people were asking if Ma Long was GOAT before he had won anything real significant, just based on his amazing technique. I thought that was crazy at that time (since ZJK was on his amazing run), but it certainly shows the results of the "eye test". And now, Ma Long has a run of great wins to show for it.

All time is a long time. Different eras and all that. But my vote is for Ma Long, recognizing that a lot of people will think differently. I am not intending to demean any other great players but making my choice. I do personally think there is a lot of Waldner reverence that approaches religion that I find a bit overblown sometimes.

Since I am probably one of those people, I don't think that is an entirely fair characterization. In addition to being a talented junior, Ma Long pretty much was doing well in just about every event, just not winning it. But the thing that really sparked this was the 50 match(maybe a bit more ,maybe a bit less) winning streak that he had in 2011-2012. It became way too obvious that the best player in the world was not playing in the Olympics, given that he beat everyone and won every event during that streak.

That streak by itself to me is one of the greatest achievements in table tennis, and it is truly worthy of a GOAT. Unfortunately, people only value big titles and make fun of such things which are IMO much harder, no matter what you think of ITTF events.

NextLevel · Jun 9, 2017

anchorschmidt said:
Ok, god save me, I'm entering this discussion. My 0.02$. I don't think people put Waldner as the greatest because of his statistics but purely because he was just so damn cool (and because of his titles). No further intellectualization necessary

Statistically, I think Ma Long will look better almost whichever way you put it. He's just amazingly consistent, which is really hard. All top pros struggle with injuries, fatigue etc. but except for the Chinese Superleague, Ma Long looks unbeatable on the World Tour.

I also think that Waldner and the entire earlier generation faced stiffer competition. To quote myself from an earlier post:

I think only now Fan Zhendong is at a level where he can compete against Ma Long against a coach but it's going to be unfair again. Ma Long is going to be 29 and it would be unfair to compare a peak-level Fan Zhendong in his early twenties to Ma Long in his early thirties. Pretty fascinating if Ma Long can keep denying him.

I like your post, but I disagree that the WH, WLQ and MLin generation were greater than the ML, XX and ZJK generation. THe results were virtually identical in terms of domination and they don't call the ML, XX, and ZJK generation the special generation for nothing (they dethroned the prior generation in matches, not by attrition).

anchorschmidt · Jun 9, 2017

Oh yes, I do agree that they were perhaps the strongest generation at the peak of their powers but they haven't had the same longevity of the previous generation.

ZJK because of injury, motivation, style etc was at his peak between 2011-2014
Xu Xin hasn't been as great after the new ball. He hasn't been able to adapt. Liu Guoliang has scolded him on various occasions because of this.
Even though he's such a great player, he has only won major titles in doubles.

Compared to them:

Wang Hao reached the finals of the Olympics in 2004 after beating the unbeatable Wang Liqin and stayed pretty strong till 2011. In 2013 he reached the finals of the WTTC again after taking out Ma Long in spectacular fashion.
Ma Lin reached the finals of the WTTC back in 1999 and lost narrowly to Liu Guoliang. He won the Olympics in 2008
Wang Liqin's style was even called the "long lasting style" in the CNT. He began his dominance in 2000 and gave ZJK a serious match in the 2011 WTTC. But he was easily a candidate for any medal between 2000 and 2009.

Only Ma Long has shown the adaptability and longevity of the previous Chinese generation

NextLevel · Jun 9, 2017

anchorschmidt said:
Oh yes, I do agree that they were perhaps the strongest generation at the peak of their powers but they haven't had the same longevity of the previous generation.

ZJK because of injury, motivation, style etc was at his peak between 2011-2014
Xu Xin hasn't been as great after the new ball. He hasn't been able to adapt. Liu Guoliang has scolded him on various occasions because of this.
Even though he's such a great player, he has only won major titles in doubles.

Compared to them:

Wang Hao reached the finals of the Olympics in 2004 after beating the unbeatable Wang Liqin and stayed pretty strong till 2011. In 2013 he reached the finals of the WTTC again after taking out Ma Long in spectacular fashion.
Ma Lin reached the finals of the WTTC back in 1999 and lost narrowly to Liu Guoliang. He won the Olympics in 2008
Wang Liqin's style was even called the "long lasting style" in the CNT. He began his dominance in 2000 and gave ZJK a serious match in the 2011 WTTC. But he was easily a candidate for any medal between 2000 and 2009.

Only Ma Long has shown the adaptability and longevity of the previous Chinese generation

I disagree for obvious reasons.

1. The prior generation lost medals to Timo Boll, Ryu Seung Min, Oh Sang Eun etc. at major events. THe current generation has lost fewer, maybe in part because of fewer Olympic spots. But Xu Xin, Ma Long and Zhang Jike dominate the World Cups and the WTTCs.

2. Xu Xin would be world #1 but for the existence of his teammates, that is not a black mark on his longevity. His inability to adapt is just about his relative CNT standing, not an objective measure of how good he is as a player.

The level below Ma Long is all CNT, and if he didn't win, another CNT player would. This was not always the case for the WLQ etc generation.

TTFrenzy · Jun 9, 2017

anchorschmidt said:
Ok, god save me, I'm entering this discussion. My 0.02$. I don't think people put Waldner as the greatest because of his statistics but purely because he was just so damn cool (and because of his titles). No further intellectualization necessary

Statistically, I think Ma Long will look better almost whichever way you put it. He's just amazingly consistent, which is really hard. All top pros struggle with injuries, fatigue etc. but except for the Chinese Superleague, Ma Long looks unbeatable on the World Tour.

I also think that Waldner and the entire earlier generation faced stiffer competition. To quote myself from an earlier post:

I think only now Fan Zhendong is at a level where he can compete against Ma Long without a coach but it's going to be unfair again. Ma Long is going to be 29 and it would be unfair to compare a peak-level Fan Zhendong in his early twenties to Ma Long in his early thirties. Pretty fascinating if Ma Long can keep denying him.

fzd just needs a few tweaks to adjust to ma long variation without a coach, just like ZJK in the past killing everything is not the way to go, instead build up the initiative and then outpower him like in the 5th and 6th set. JUst like XX said if you dont grab your opportunity against ma long he will definitely not let his one slip away.

For me grabbing the 3rd consecutive wttc is a much more difficult task than winning the olympics because it is much harder and tiresome as a tournament, and the younger generation will come out guns blazing to keep their chances for olympics alive themselves.

anchorschmidt · Jun 9, 2017

A couple more points:

1. Boll was an exception. There hasn't been anyone in the last 10-15 years who has consistently challenged the Chinese like he has. Even apart from him, I still do believe that Ryu Seung Min (in 2004 and 2007) and Oh Sang Eun (when he was on) were stronger than the top non-chinese are nowadays. The fact that we still mainly count on Boll, Samsonov and Mizutani to take on the top Chinese players says a lot about the current generation. Boll and Samsonov reached WR1 and both of them have beaten ZJK, XX and ML when they were past their prime and these three were entering theirs. I don't think that anyone else now can do that right now. It's unfair to compare the non-chinese competition that currently exists to the one that existed previously. If Boll and Samsonov were in their twenties, things wouldn't be looking so rosy for ZJK, FZD and XX.

2.

Xu Xin would be world #1 but for the existence of his teammates, that is not a black mark on his longevity. His inability to adapt is just about his relative CNT standing, not an objective measure of how good he is as a player.

. That is my point. All great players have adapted to stay at the top for so long. Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin have gone through the 38mm change (ok not Wang Hao for this one) and the speedglue ban and adapted to stay great. How long do you think Waldner would have lasted if he didn't develop his close to the table game and backhand after the 80s? Xu Xin hasn't been able to do this.

The one legitimate black mark was the 2003 WTTC where Schlager won. Post 2005, they never lost a major tournament with all of their top players present.

NextLevel · Jun 9, 2017

anchorschmidt said:
A couple more points:

1. Boll was an exception. There hasn't been anyone in the last 10-15 years who has consistently challenged the Chinese like he has. Even apart from him, I still do believe that Ryu Seung Min (in 2004 and 2007) and Oh Sang Eun (when he was on) were stronger than the top non-chinese are nowadays. The fact that we still mainly count on Boll, Samsonov and Mizutani to take on the top Chinese players says a lot about the current generation. Boll and Samsonov reached WR1 and both of them have beaten ZJK, XX and ML when they were past their prime and these three were entering theirs. I don't think that anyone else now can do that right now. It's unfair to compare the non-chinese competition that currently exists to the one that existed previously. If Boll and Samsonov were in their twenties, things wouldn't be looking so rosy for ZJK, FZD and XX.

Your opinion. Possibly true. But definitely not certainly true. Experience is almost as important as athleticism in this sport. Mizutani is from the same generation as Ma Long etc and was a prodigy which is why you might almost put him in a different generation. But Boll has only one WTTC medal, he has mostly been injured and had a few peak moments when challenging the Chinese. He has lost to Europeans and non-Chinese on multiple occasions in big tournaments so it is not like he is so far ahead of everyone in consistency that he is the European Ma Long.

2. . That is my point. All great players have adapted to stay at the top for so long. Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin have gone through the 38mm change (ok not Wang Hao for this one) and the speedglue ban and adapted to stay great. How long do you think Waldner would have lasted if he didn't develop his close to the table game and backhand after the 80s? Xu Xin hasn't been able to do this.

The one legitimate black mark was the 2003 WTTC where Schlager won. Post 2005, they never lost a major tournament with all of their top players present.

Xu Xin has adapted, you are just taking Liu Guoliang's comments too seriously. His game is not as effective but he is still beating the players he used to beat and losing to the players he used to lose to. What more do you want as proof of adapation? That he should start beating FZD and ML when he wasn't beating them before?

There were multiple black marks from 2003 to 2005, the CNT got more efficient over time, but there is no reason to simply claim that the last generation was better than this one, when this one wins more consistently than the last. Even ZJK the inconsistent got the silver in Rio, you can't be judging the last generation on results and this generation on style merits. The difference is that XX could never dominate ZJK or ML (and in recent times FZD), while WH had an opening between WLQ/MLin and ZJK. But XX is a great player, will probably go down as one of the greatest players to never win WTTC or Olympics. I mean, bronze in 2013 and 2017, lost to Chinese in 2011 (WLQ), 2015(FB). Lots of good Pro tour results and has been World Cup winner.

Ma Long the GOAT?

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