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  1. SFF_lib is offline
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    #1

    Why single-ply hinoki not popular in plastic ball era

    Recent switch to the plastic ball has encouraged speed orientex close-to-table style. Traditionally single-ply hinoki is perfect for this kind of game.

    IMO single-ply hinoki 10mm is equivalent to carbon composite blades, yet with much better feel and control.

    So why we don't see a resurgence of hinoki blade use?

    Probably because​of its thickness it's not suitable for flicking? Or maybe its weight? But in general a hinoki blade only weighs 3-5g more than a normal blade.

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    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by BenitaDen
    I believe people don't know much about Hinoki blade. I have heard about it but I haven't got my hands on it so I can't say much. My only TT friend at club was talking about it and was saying he's going to get it in coming week. So I'll try that and if I found it much smoother and handy, I might get it then.
    I would say if you try hinoki and love it, it's like a cocaine. You get addicted because the experience can not be expressed in words. I am addicted to hinoki because the feeling can not be replicated on this planet.

    In my long EJ journey I always look for a hinoki layer in any blade.

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by BenitaDen
    I just texted him when I saw this post and this is what he said "To my knowledge, there is no such limit. Your blade can be as thick or big as you like, however, making it to big might become a problem as most rubbers sheets aren't that much bigger then a "regular" paddle."
    Hinoki blades aren't big, they are thick.

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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by BenitaDen
    Well, if this is exactly how it feels when you play with it then I am definitely going to try hinoki. I am talking to my friend too via texting, he's getting it tomorrow. So let's see if I'd like playing with it. Will tell you my experience.
    There are hinoki composite and single-ply hinoki. Single-ply hinoki has the best feel. Kiso hinoki is the most premium hinoki wood which is very hard to source nowadays.

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    There are hinoki composite and single-ply hinoki. Single-ply hinoki has the best feel. Kiso hinoki is the most premium hinoki wood which is very hard to source nowadays.

    Sent from my WAS-LX2 using Tapatalk
    Eg about hinoki blade made?

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dominus7
    Eg about hinoki blade made?
    What do you mean?

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    What do you mean?
    What blade is made of 100% apart of butterfly hinoki?

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    #8
    Sorry, I forgot to say, made in flared and classic

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dominus7
    What blade is made of 100% apart of butterfly hinoki?

    Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk
    Butterfly makes RSM hinoki blades. But arguably Darker makes the highest quality - darker speed 90.

    Darker blades tend to give you a soft touch on small to medium stroke, but explosive catapult effect when far from table.

    Butterfly's best hinoki is the Kim Taek soo one which sells for too much ~$400

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dominus7
    Sorry, I forgot to say, made in flared and classic

    Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk
    Oh i forgot a few other good brands - TSP hunter, Yasaka Delux and Nittaku Rorin are all good ones.

    Cheaper brands such as Yinhe and Champion also make hinoki blades. But i have never tried these.

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  11. Floris is offline
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    #11
    I own an Avalon Hado. 9 plies Kiso Hinoki! Super dwell-time.
    Don't think they still make those.

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    #12
    1.Not everybody likes the feel of hinoki.
    2.The thickness looks strange.
    3.Heavy, and lots of people likes light blades.
    4.It's mainly used in JPen. It's advertised mainly in JPen.
    5.No pro player use shakehand 1 ply Hinoki.
    6.Because of the above, only a few people seen a Hinoki blade and they are sceptical about it or just don't want to change.

    I've played some Butterfly composite Hinoki and I have to admit that it has an unique feeling and good dwell. However I didn't like it. Fast and stiff, yet soft. It's not for me.

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  13. Suga D is offline
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    #13
    I luv Hinoki too, but i was told single ply Hinoki blades tend to be quite delicate and fragile.
    This is what a well reputed member wrote to me after asking him about single ply Hinoki blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    You don't want the Speed-90. That would be more for hanging on your wall! Why do I say that?

    Well, first off, it is 9mm thick which is a bit too thick for serving shakehand. Second, it is heavier than you want even though that would not bother Der_Echte. Third, it is one ply which means it plays AMAZING and will get you addicted to a blade you can't realistically use in match play because it will feel better than anything and everything you have ever felt for mid-distance looping. And the fourth reason is that, because it is ONE PLY, it will break really easily and for no apparent reason. The wood splits along the grain of the plies very easily and then, that is a lot of loot down the tubes.

    When I am at a computer I will make sure that 5 ply is the best one for you.

    What is the speed rating of your NSO?


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  14. Tinykin is offline
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    #14
    To me, switching or trialling 10mm 1-ply blade needs a substantive period of adjustment chiefly because of the thickness. But once hooked, there's no turning back. It's the fastest blade around yet with so much basic control. But I'm not certain if us Users are hooked on the blade itself or the hinoki wood. I originally bought 2x 1-ply from American Hinoki which I used for years. I now use the Darker Speed 90 and it is everthing that the reports say.
    Weight, my blade weighed initially about 92g, but after applying several layers of linseed oil, it's about 97g. Loaded with 2x EL-S it totals 197g. But with boosted (by previous owner) H3 provincial on one side, the bat weighs 191g

    Name:  Speed 90 weight.jpg
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    #15
    I think the reason why is the exorbitant cost and the difficulty to obtain consistency from blade to blade. If you look at the old jpen 1-ply players, they tried to keep the same blade for as long as they could to maintain the same feeling.

    Cypress/Hinoki whether 9mm or 10mm feel very different from blade to blade even among the same make and model. And depending upon the cut, even the same weighted blades will feel different (soft/hard) and have different speeds.

    Then there are different grades separated by different models among the makes (Darker Speed 15, Speed 25, Speed 70, Speed 90, Butterfly Cypress T-Max, V-Max, G-Max, etc, etc.) One of the reasons why 5-ply is popular is the consistency you can expect with the ply-wood design. Without labels, a 10mm 1ply can be wildly different between several blades, while a 5-ply will have mitigated (although not eliminated) this variance.

    If you are spending big bucks, it's really hard to get a pair that feel the same or to your liking. Then there's the point Suga D made about fragility (quoting Carl). You have a favorite blade and it splits when you hit the corner of a table, it'll have you soul searching again. Also, water-based glue if applied incorrectly (adhering rubber before fully drying) would leave the wood surface trapped with moisture and affect the feel.

    Personally, I think 1ply Hinoki can be the very best feeling blade. The characteristics lend themselves best with jpen because of the way your finger tips support the back of the blade and you can really feel the ball on impact.

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    Last edited by Jabugo; 06-09-2017 at 11:48 PM.

  16. Suga D is offline
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    #16
    Even though Tinykin's racket looks very tempting to me...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    To me, switching or trialling 10mm 1-ply blade needs a substantive period of adjustment chiefly because of the thickness. But once hooked, there's no turning back. It's the fastest blade around yet with so much basic control. But I'm not certain if us Users are hooked on the blade itself or the hinoki wood. I originally bought 2x 1-ply from American Hinoki which I used for years. I now use the Darker Speed 90 and it is everthing that the reports say.
    Weight, my blade weighed initially about 92g, but after applying several layers of linseed oil, it's about 97g. Loaded with 2x EL-S it totals 197g. But with boosted (by previous owner) H3 provincial on one side, the bat weighs 191g

    Name:  Speed 90 weight.jpg
Views: 2770
Size:  89.8 KB
    ..... I think you have made some very good points there, Jabugo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabugo
    I think the reason why is the exorbitant cost and the difficulty to obtain consistency from blade to blade. If you look at the old jpen 1-ply players, they tried to keep the same blade for as long as they could to maintain the same feeling.

    Cypress/Hinoki whether 9mm or 10mm feel very different from blade to blade even among the same make and model. And depending upon the cut, even the same weighted blades will feel different (soft/hard) and have different speeds.

    Then there are different grades separated by different models among the makes (Darker Speed 15, Speed 25, Speed 70, Speed 90, Butterfly Cypress T-Max, V-Max, G-Max, etc, etc.) One of the reasons why 5-ply is popular is the consistency you can expect with the ply-wood design. Without labels, a 10mm 1ply can be wildly different between several blades, while a 5-ply will have mitigated (although not eliminated) this variance.

    If you are spending big bucks, it's really hard to get a pair that feel the same or to your liking. Then there's the point Suga D made about fragility (quoting Carl). You have a favorite blade and it splits when you hit the corner of a table, it'll have you soul searching again. Also, water-based glue if applied incorrectly (adhering rubber before fully drying) would leave the wood surface trapped with moisture and affect the feel.

    Personally, I think 1ply Hinoki can be the very best feeling blade. The characteristics lend themselves best with jpen because of the way your finger tips support the back of the blade and you can really feel the ball on impact.
    Thanks for the thoughtful explanation.

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  17. SFF_lib is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ajtatosmano2
    1.Not everybody likes the feel of hinoki.
    2.The thickness looks strange.
    3.Heavy, and lots of people likes light blades.
    4.It's mainly used in JPen. It's advertised mainly in JPen.
    5.No pro player use shakehand 1 ply Hinoki.
    6.Because of the above, only a few people seen a Hinoki blade and they are sceptical about it or just don't want to change.

    I've played some Butterfly composite Hinoki and I have to admit that it has an unique feeling and good dwell. However I didn't like it. Fast and stiff, yet soft. It's not for me.
    True. Hinoki seems to suite a group of people. Once tried, we never want anything else.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    To me, switching or trialling 10mm 1-ply blade needs a substantive period of adjustment chiefly because of the thickness. But once hooked, there's no turning back. It's the fastest blade around yet with so much basic control. But I'm not certain if us Users are hooked on the blade itself or the hinoki wood. I originally bought 2x 1-ply from American Hinoki which I used for years. I now use the Darker Speed 90 and it is everthing that the reports say.
    Weight, my blade weighed initially about 92g, but after applying several layers of linseed oil, it's about 97g. Loaded with 2x EL-S it totals 197g. But with boosted (by previous owner) H3 provincial on one side, the bat weighs 191g

    Name:  Speed 90 weight.jpg
Views: 2770
Size:  89.8 KB
    Wow that's really heavy. I own a cpen speed 90. I shaved it down to a perfect 85g.

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  19. countrybread is offline
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    #19
    I bought a Butterfly Cypress for my son. So powerful, and yet has a soft feeling. Nittaku makes a 1 ply shakehand: the Miyabi. And they have the seven-ply Septear. I bought it but I haven't used it yet. ITC also has a five-ply hinoki: the Premier XQ. Cornilleau has their Hinotec blade but I think its just "okay." The Butterfly Cypress is still my favorite hinoki blade.
    Last edited by countrybread; 06-10-2017 at 04:22 AM.

  20. SFF_lib is offline
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabugo
    I think the reason why is the exorbitant cost and the difficulty to obtain consistency from blade to blade. If you look at the old jpen 1-ply players, they tried to keep the same blade for as long as they could to maintain the same feeling.

    Cypress/Hinoki whether 9mm or 10mm feel very different from blade to blade even among the same make and model. And depending upon the cut, even the same weighted blades will feel different (soft/hard) and have different speeds.

    Then there are different grades separated by different models among the makes (Darker Speed 15, Speed 25, Speed 70, Speed 90, Butterfly Cypress T-Max, V-Max, G-Max, etc, etc.) One of the reasons why 5-ply is popular is the consistency you can expect with the ply-wood design. Without labels, a 10mm 1ply can be wildly different between several blades, while a 5-ply will have mitigated (although not eliminated) this variance.

    If you are spending big bucks, it's really hard to get a pair that feel the same or to your liking. Then there's the point Suga D made about fragility (quoting Carl). You have a favorite blade and it splits when you hit the corner of a table, it'll have you soul searching again. Also, water-based glue if applied incorrectly (adhering rubber before fully drying) would leave the wood surface trapped with moisture and affect the feel.

    Personally, I think 1ply Hinoki can be the very best feeling blade. The characteristics lend themselves best with jpen because of the way your finger tips support the back of the blade and you can really feel the ball on impact.
    Very good points. Especially the durability. Although i bought mine 2nd hand 3 years ago, still no splitting accident after these few years.

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