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    #61
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Black Cat, above, I have quoted something I wrote earlier in this thread. Hopefully that post that I am quoting above can explain some of what you are trying to ask in the post I am quoting below.

    If you want to understand why a one ply blade is more easy to break than most blades you would have to understand the reason ply wood is made and what the difference is between a blade with 3, 5 or 7 plies where the wood grain for each ply is lined up perpendicular to the next ply so one layer, the grain would be vertical and the next layer the grain would be horizontal.

    Thank you, that makes a lot more sense now. Certainly explains why 1 ply blades are rarely made by manufacturers. It sounds very interesting though.

    On a separate note, would you say this one ply quality makes the blade flexible or stiff? Is it stiff and brittle (explaining why it would snap easily) or would it have similar flexibility to a thin 5 ply (with the stiffness of the 1 ply coming from thickness and the stiffness of the 1 ply coming from lack of these crisscrossed wood plies?)

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    #62
    Isn't one reason that for jpen you can use a heavier bat because you essentially have just one rubber?

    Shakehand uses two rubbers which means another 50 grams or so of rubber compared to a jpen which just has a light paint sheet on the back. That means for shakehand you need a lighter blade to get to the same overall weight

  3. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #63
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat510
    Thank you, that makes a lot more sense now. Certainly explains why 1 ply blades are rarely made by manufacturers. It sounds very interesting though.On a separate note, would you say this one ply quality makes the blade flexible or stiff? Is it stiff and brittle (explaining why it would snap easily) or would it have similar flexibility to a thin 5 ply (with the stiffness of the 1 ply coming from thickness and the stiffness of the 1 ply coming from lack of these crisscrossed wood plies?)

    Based on the questions I would say, it seems you did not understand what I said about 1 ply blades and it also seems you have not read the thread. Read the whole thread. See if you can figure some stuff out for yourself.


    If you have had the idea of one ply explained and are still asking for another reason like "Stiff and Brittle" for why they can break, then clearly you just are not getting why one ply blades break.


    But lets see if I can show you why:



    This is a photo of a one ply Hinoki blade: LOOK AT THE GRAIN. LOOK AT HOW THE GRAIN GOES FROM ONE BLADE FACE TO THE OTHER. THE WOOD SEPARATES ON ONE OF THOSE GRAIN LINES BECAUSE THE BLADE IS ONE PLY. The grain just splits.


    Usually 1 ply blades are 9-12mm thick, an average of double the thickness of a 5 ply blade. Tell me if you think a blade that is 10mm thick would tend to be more flexible than a blade that is 5mm thick.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-08-2021 at 03:56 AM.
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    #64
    I want to say something about this Hinoki blade thing. I have a DS90 myself but I seldom play with it b'coz it does not suit my play-style ( read: I suxs when I use it ).

    However, two of my clubmates use it and they love it to bits. One is a power-hitter from mid distance and the other is a blocker with anti and they seem to be loving it.

    This has made me come to a personal bias perhaps Hinoki is great for power hitter and blocking and no wonder JPen Hinoki is such a great product.
    Last edited by Gozo; 12-08-2021 at 05:48 AM.

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    #65
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    Based on the questions I would say, it seems you did not understand what I said about 1 ply blades and it also seems you have not read the thread. Read the whole thread. See if you can figure some stuff out for yourself.


    If you have had the idea of one ply explained and are still asking for another reason like "Stiff and Brittle" for why they can break, then clearly you just are not getting why one ply blades break.


    But lets see if I can show you why:



    This is a photo of a one ply Hinoki blade: LOOK AT THE GRAIN. LOOK AT HOW THE GRAIN GOES FROM ONE BLADE FACE TO THE OTHER. THE WOOD SEPARATES ON ONE OF THOSE GRAIN LINES BECAUSE THE BLADE IS ONE PLY. The grain just splits.


    Usually 1 ply blades are 9-12mm thick, an average of double the thickness of a 5 ply blade. Tell me if you think a blade that is 10mm thick would tend to be more flexible than a blade that is 5mm thick.

    To be fair, I do understand why wood breaks along the grain. It’s like separating two pieces of wood glued together — except the wood is joined together by lignin (a natural joiner) as opposed to synthetic glues. The grain is just like the weak point between two pieces of wood glued together. This also explains why it is allegedly very easy to fix blades broken along the grain — the wood worker would just replace the natural joiner with glue and the cut would be very clean.

    What I am fundamentally interested in is:
    1. The playing characteristics of the blade, specifically stiffness — I have had trouble with a very stiff hinoki carbon blade (it was much too fast, low arcing and uncomfortable for topspin), but people describe the looping with single ply hinoki blades as very easy, high arcing and comfortable. People also say looping blades are high arcing, slower flexible and hitting blades are low arcing, faster and stiff. So I don’t really understand how single ply, chunky Off+ hinoki blades work in that respect.

    2. Will the blade break if I drop it? — I can get fairly easily get a strong steel case like you suggested earlier in the thread to prevent the blade from bending, but I can’t guarantee that I won’t drop it. If I’m going to blow £100+ on a blade that will break very easily if dropped then it would be a bad plan to buy it.

    I know very little about Design and Technology or Physics, so thank you, I appreciate your wisdom.

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    #66
    There is the risk to break if you drop but I've had a few JPEN ranging from a 120 dollar to a Xiom Katana Platinum second hand and some shakehands ones.
    ​two 9mm shake and 4 10.5mm JPEN.

    I played with them not too much maybe total 300-500 hours. I hit the table about 7-12 times and dropped them about 8 times total and they were fine.

    But I am the type to treat blades very carefully I think I have two dents on my main blade for 3 years. I would never worry about my JPEN breaking.

    if you are interested and want a good blade but do not wish to spend over 300 dollars then
    http://ww3.ping-pong.tw/product_info...oducts_id=4966
    Is the best site. Prices are same as low end mainstream but better quality

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    #67
    A mate plays rpb with the ds90. The blade flew out of his hand a few times and even hit the wall once. One time it almost hit his opponent on the head. Only a few edge dings but no split whatsoever.

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    #68
    Quote Originally Posted by hleett
    A mate plays rpb with the ds90. The blade flew out of his hand a few times and even hit the wall once. One time it almost hit his opponent on the head. Only a few edge dings but no split whatsoever.
    My experience tells me that Jpen offers a firmer grip than cpen.

    Make sure your friend never change to cpen

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    #69
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    My experience tells me that Jpen offers a firmer grip than cpen.

    Make sure your friend never change to cpen
    He has 1 ds90 FL and 1 ds90 Cpen. He plays RPB with either blade. I think the one that flew away was the Cpen. He also has a RSM Jpen which he doesn't use anymore. He likes the feel of the ds90. And so do I.

  10. UpSideDownCarl is online now
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    #70
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat510

    To be fair, I do understand why wood breaks along the grain. It’s like separating two pieces of wood glued together — except the wood is joined together by lignin (a natural joiner) as opposed to synthetic glues. The grain is just like the weak point between two pieces of wood glued together. This also explains why it is allegedly very easy to fix blades broken along the grain — the wood worker would just replace the natural joiner with glue and the cut would be very clean.

    What I am fundamentally interested in is:
    1. The playing characteristics of the blade, specifically stiffness — I have had trouble with a very stiff hinoki carbon blade (it was much too fast, low arcing and uncomfortable for topspin), but people describe the looping with single ply hinoki blades as very easy, high arcing and comfortable. People also say looping blades are high arcing, slower flexible and hitting blades are low arcing, faster and stiff. So I don’t really understand how single ply, chunky Off+ hinoki blades work in that respect.

    2. Will the blade break if I drop it? — I can get fairly easily get a strong steel case like you suggested earlier in the thread to prevent the blade from bending, but I can’t guarantee that I won’t drop it. If I’m going to blow £100+ on a blade that will break very easily if dropped then it would be a bad plan to buy it.

    I know very little about Design and Technology or Physics, so thank you, I appreciate your wisdom

    Good explanation of what you are trying to understand. Thank you.

    So, what you are looking for is the qualities of Hinoki as a wood. I can assure you that the Hinoki/Carbon blade you tried which was very stiff, was not stiff because of the Hinoki. Hinoki is a kind of unique. It is soft and springy. It has more gears than most woods. Like, you could have a blade that is all Hinoki that is slow on touch shots, a moderate pace on moderate power shots and a rocket launcher when you spin the hell out of the ball (Note, I did not say "when you smash"). Also, when Hinoki is paired with Carbon, for some reason, it usually ends up feeling wildly faster than I would have thought. When you spin the ball, Hinoki seems to grab the ball harder than any other wood I have tried. But to me, it does not seem that well suited to direct contact (except when you have one of those 10mm thick blades).

    As a result, Hinoki is the kind of wood that people usually EITHER Love or Hate.

    For what you are looking at, I would think about finding a 5 or 7 ply Hinoki blade to test for 5-15 min so you can see if you are in the Love or Not Love category with Hinoki. If you do that, I would test with a blade that is ALL Hinoki (all plies in the blade are Hinoki rather than mixed with other woods).

    As far as Hinoki in thinner blades it is decently flexible. When something is 10mm thick, it is hard for me to imagine that it would be flexible. But Hinoki is still soft and grabs the ball like nothing else.....so, those things, soft and grabbing the ball, make it great for looping, even in one of those 10mm thick One Ply blades.

    By the way, it is worth noting that there are several people on TTDaily who own ONE Ply Hinoki blades for years without ever having the blade break. So, it is not that they all break. Many don't break. But because the blade is a One Ply, you have to do your best to be extra careful with it and someone not knowing this, and spending several hundred dollars (Euros....Pounds....or what ever currency) without knowing that and having the blade break after a few weeks or months would be terrible. So, it is not that they will break. It is that you may WANT to think of a One Ply Hinoki blade as different than a blade made of multiple plies. That a One Ply Hinoki blade is an investment, a work of art, and a blade to care for as if it were delicate, so that, it CAN last you a lifetime of enjoyment as you play with it.

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    #71
    I honestly couldn't really tell if Darker Speed90 is good for looping. I do, however, agree that DS90 is a hard hitting king! I am a player at US1600-1800 level.

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    #72
    Quote Originally Posted by taniame
    I honestly couldn't really tell if Darker Speed90 is good for looping. I do, however, agree that DS90 is a hard hitting king! I am a player at US1600-1800 level.
    Thick single ply hinoki is not good for looping. It has little flex. What it produces is a strong FORWARD kick due to the hinoki wood.

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    #73
    I have to disagree, single ply hinoki is excellent at looping. It's softness combined with the use of softer rubbers makes it deadly with spin and speed. If you watch KTS or RSM they are looping and driving beasts.

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    #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    To me, switching or trialling 10mm 1-ply blade needs a substantive period of adjustment chiefly because of the thickness. But once hooked, there's no turning back. It's the fastest blade around yet with so much basic control. But I'm not certain if us Users are hooked on the blade itself or the hinoki wood. I originally bought 2x 1-ply from American Hinoki which I used for years. I now use the Darker Speed 90 and it is everthing that the reports say.
    Weight, my blade weighed initially about 92g, but after applying several layers of linseed oil, it's about 97g. Loaded with 2x EL-S it totals 197g. But with boosted (by previous owner) H3 provincial on one side, the bat weighs 191g

    Attachment 13451

    Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'm using a Ma Long 5, and would have tried a Darker Speed 90 were it not for the durability concerns. Your post makes linseed oil seem like a poor choice of sealers. The tung oil my brother recommended only added 0.15 grams for the one layer I added to the racquet faces and edges.


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    #75
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    Thick single ply hinoki is not good for looping. It has little flex. What it produces is a strong FORWARD kick due to the hinoki wood.

    Hmmmm, from my experience, i don't think it is "not good" for looping. I just couldn't tell the difference.


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    #76
    Is there any concern regarding how Hinoki performs with tacky rubber? Does the softness or “kick” make it less effective for brushing or looping? Is that all nonsense?

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    #77
    Quote Originally Posted by BryanY
    Is there any concern regarding how Hinoki performs with tacky rubber? Does the softness or “kick” make it less effective for brushing or looping? Is that all nonsense?

    To be honest perosnally it is an issue if you play one sided. It just makes it harder. Also the backhand becomes more of an issue. Forehand loops are fine, smashing is harder but the big backhand punch is much better with grippy. It just becomes very spin sensitive with tack


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    #78
    Quote Originally Posted by BryanY
    Is there any concern regarding how Hinoki performs with tacky rubber? Does the softness or “kick” make it less effective for brushing or looping? Is that all nonsense?

    I always think that Red Tacky Rubbers are more suitable for non-pros and semi pros who want to use H3N or similar products. The black ones are just way too tacky as the red ones are semi tacky....same brand same line but you know the tricky difference between black and red


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    #79
    Quote Originally Posted by passifid

    To be honest perosnally it is an issue if you play one sided. It just makes it harder. Also the backhand becomes more of an issue. Forehand loops are fine, smashing is harder but the big backhand punch is much better with grippy. It just becomes very spin sensitive with tack

    AFAIK, all tacky rubbers are kind of spin-sensitive


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    #80
    Quote Originally Posted by BryanY
    Is there any concern regarding how Hinoki performs with tacky rubber? Does the softness or “kick” make it less effective for brushing or looping? Is that all nonsense?
    I’ve tried 37-40 degree H3 on my Darker 90. My feeling is that 37 degree can be fast enough but give you lots of good feel.

    39-40 degree really kills the good feel of hinoki.

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