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  1. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #21

    Why single-ply hinoki not popular in plastic ball era

    Hey, fun to read this thread.

    I stick by my words. Thanks for quoting me Suga D.

    There really is nothing that feels as good as a 1 ply Hinoki blade.

    And Hinoki as a wood is pretty light so even though those 10mm 1 plies are thick, they are not too heavy. They are actually a pretty nice weight. 90-95 grams is pretty nice.

    However I will restate the downsides:

    *That 10mm thickness does make it really hard to serve shakehand. It works better for penhold.

    **Because the wood is one ply, the grain goes straight through the blade face. And if the blade is in your bag and pressed at an odd angle, the blade can split down the grain. And you won't even realize the blade is broken. You will think it is playing funny because the rubbers weren't glued on well or something. And then you take off the rubbers and the pieces of the blade fall away from each other.

    At $250-$400 for a good 1 ply, that can become expensive no matter how good the blade feels.

    But there is one more thing and this one I didn't say in the post Suga D quoted:

    Hinoki absorbs sweat very easily because of how the wood is soft and porous. So it absorbs sweat even more than most woods do. And when it absorbs your sweat, the wood becomes heavier and, more importantly, softer. And then the blade plays totally differently than it did when it was dry.

    So, for a top pro, by the 7th game of a grueling match, where you are covered with sweat, your Hinoki blade will play differently than it did at the beginning of the match.

    So, on the pro level, I think that may be the biggest reason Hinoki is rarely used alone these days. This has been the case for a while. The last great player I can think of to use a 1 ply Hinoki blade is Ryu Seung Min.

    But I think the consistency of play of the multiply carbon blades has made 1 ply Hinoki blades, for the most part, obsolete at the pro level.

    However, if money was not an object, I would definitely have a few Darker Speed 90s in my arsenal.

    Again, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, feels as good.

    And if you are using one and love it, and it has worked for you, none of these things matter.



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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-10-2017 at 04:39 AM.
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  2. Tinykin is online now
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    #22
    I have never experienced the water absorption problem. But now I have a new excuse for losing those 5-setters. However, I don't use water based glue, only the old style VOC glue which helps, I think.
    But you are correct about them getting softer. My 2x AHinoki blades actually became smaller and misshapen over time because of the bangs on the table. This would not have happened if I was a better player of course.
    Serving is not a problem. Yes, the ball does hit the side now and then but no more than with normal blades, except that with 10mm plus rubber it's a big surface area so 50% of the time the serve is good causing consternation on the other side
    Where I do have problems is that during push strokes, many times the rubber scrapes against the table. So I have to reglue quite often. But it's my bad technique during the excitement of a rally that causes it.
    Darker I think recognises that many players won't want a shakehand 10mm blade. That's why they also make 5 and 7 ply hinoki and 2x carbon hinoki. I have an Esteem (75g) which I do like a lot.

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    Last edited by Tinykin; 06-10-2017 at 07:36 AM.
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Hey, fun to read this thread.

    I stick by my words. Thanks for quoting me Suga D.

    There really is nothing that feels as good as a 1 ply Hinoki blade.

    And Hinoki as a wood is pretty light so even though those 10mm 1 plies are thick, they are not too heavy. They are actually a pretty nice weight. 90-95 grams is pretty nice.

    However I will restate the downsides:

    *That 10mm thickness does make it really hard to serve shakehand. It works better for penhold.

    **Because the wood is one ply, the grain goes straight through the blade face. And if the blade is in your bag and pressed at an odd angle, the blade can split down the grain. And you won't even realize the blade is broken. You will think it is playing funny because the rubbers weren't glued on well or something. And then you take off the rubbers and the pieces of the blade fall away from each other.

    At $250-$400 for a good 1 ply, that can become expensive no matter how good the blade feels.

    But there is one more thing and this one I didn't say in the post Suga D quoted:

    Hinoki absorbs sweat very easily because of how the wood is soft and porous. So it absorbs sweat even more than most woods do. And when it absorbs your sweat, the wood becomes heavier and, more importantly, softer. And then the blade plays totally differently than it did when it was dry.

    So, for a top pro, by the 7th game of a grueling match, where you are covered with sweat, your Hinoki blade will play differently than it did at the beginning of the match.

    So, on the pro level, I think that may be the biggest reason Hinoki is rarely used alone these days. This has been the case for a while. The last great player I can think of to use a 1 ply Hinoki blade is Ryu Seung Min.

    But I think the consistency of play of the multiply carbon blades has made 1 ply Hinoki blades, for the most part, obsolete at the pro level.

    However, if money was not an object, I would definitely have a few Darker Speed 90s in my arsenal.

    Again, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, feels as good.

    And if you are using one and love it, and it has worked for you, none of these things matter.



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    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Hey, fun to read this thread.

    I stick by my words. Thanks for quoting me Suga D.

    There really is nothing that feels as good as a 1 ply Hinoki blade.

    And Hinoki as a wood is pretty light so even though those 10mm 1 plies are thick, they are not too heavy. They are actually a pretty nice weight. 90-95 grams is pretty nice.

    However I will restate the downsides:

    *That 10mm thickness does make it really hard to serve shakehand. It works better for penhold.

    **Because the wood is one ply, the grain goes straight through the blade face. And if the blade is in your bag and pressed at an odd angle, the blade can split down the grain. And you won't even realize the blade is broken. You will think it is playing funny because the rubbers weren't glued on well or something. And then you take off the rubbers and the pieces of the blade fall away from each other.

    At $250-$400 for a good 1 ply, that can become expensive no matter how good the blade feels.

    But there is one more thing and this one I didn't say in the post Suga D quoted:

    Hinoki absorbs sweat very easily because of how the wood is soft and porous. So it absorbs sweat even more than most woods do. And when it absorbs your sweat, the wood becomes heavier and, more importantly, softer. And then the blade plays totally differently than it did when it was dry.

    So, for a top pro, by the 7th game of a grueling match, where you are covered with sweat, your Hinoki blade will play differently than it did at the beginning of the match.

    So, on the pro level, I think that may be the biggest reason Hinoki is rarely used alone these days. This has been the case for a while. The last great player I can think of to use a 1 ply Hinoki blade is Ryu Seung Min.

    But I think the consistency of play of the multiply carbon blades has made 1 ply Hinoki blades, for the most part, obsolete at the pro level.

    However, if money was not an object, I would definitely have a few Darker Speed 90s in my arsenal.

    Again, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, feels as good.

    And if you are using one and love it, and it has worked for you, none of these things matter.



    Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
    Wow lots of insight Carl. I never know about the sweat thing. Probably my hinoki blade is a few gram heavier than 3 years ago. But because of 10mm thickness it's still very fast.

    I slightly prefer my 9mm cpen hinoki as it bends a bit more. So it's a wonderful looping blade.

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    #24
    Pro players and good club players did not change to faster blade with plastic ball.
    They started boosting, and they started liking harder feel of carbon.
    The reason they don't like 1 ply hinoki is the same reason as 30 years ago.

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  5. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SFF_lib
    Wow lots of insight Carl. I never know about the sweat thing. Probably my hinoki blade is a few gram heavier than 3 years ago. But because of 10mm thickness it's still very fast.

    I slightly prefer my 9mm cpen hinoki as it bends a bit more. So it's a wonderful looping blade.
    When the sweat has evaporated and the blade has dried, the blade goes back to its original weight.

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  6. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #26

    Why single-ply hinoki not popular in plastic ball era

    Quote Originally Posted by countrybread
    Cornilleau has their Hinotec blade but I think its just "okay."
    Hinotec are multiply blades:

    Cornilleau Hinotec ALL+ = hinoki - limba - ayous - limba - hinoki
    Cornilleau Hinotec OFF- = hinoki - limba - ayous - limba - hinoki (just different thickness compared to ALL+)
    Cornilleau Hinotec OFF = hinoki - limba - kiri - limba - hinoki
    Cornilleau Hinotec OFF+ = hinoki - carbon - kiri - carbon -hinoki

    They are okay. Nothing special. They have a ply around the edge covering the plies making it look like they are 1 ply. But they are multiply.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-10-2017 at 12:28 PM.
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  7. SFF_lib is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    They have a ply around the edge covering the plies making it look like they are 1 ply. But they are multiply.
    Smart business tactic!!


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  8. yoass is online now
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Hinotec are multiply blades:

    Cornilleau Hinotec ALL+ = hinoki - limba - ayous - limba - hinoki
    Cornilleau Hinotec OFF- = hinoki - limba - ayous - limba - hinoki (just different thickness compared to ALL+)
    Cornilleau Hinotec OFF = hinoki - limba - kiri - limba - hinoki
    Cornilleau Hinotec OFF+ = hinoki - carbon - kiri - carbon -hinoki

    They are okay. Nothing special. They have a ply around the edge covering the plies making it look like they are 1 ply. But they are multiply.
    The Treiber Z and at least some of the ZLCs have an outer Hinoki layer too, right?

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    #29
    If you want to experience the one-ply feel for euro 31,50 you can buy the Yinhe Ayous wood J-1 at Spinfactory.de
    I own and like this blade.
    It's a bit heavy but it plays great.

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    #30
    I think in general, perhaps 1-ply blades are decreasing in popularity maybe not because of the ball but because the major consumers of these blades are penholders. Then again, if the ball is causing our penholder numbers to decrease, then perhaps transitively the ball is causing it.

    Hooray statistics!

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    However, if money was not an object, I would definitely have a few Darker Speed 90s in my arsenal.

    Again, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, feels as good.

    And if you are using one and love it, and it has worked for you, none of these things matter.
    What about the hinoki blades that are made of 7 ply or 5 ply of hinokis? Are they very different from a one ply both functionally and in terms of feeling? How much difference is there?

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    #32
    Used to own Butterfly Cypress-S just so that I can glue the Sriver on and have fun occasionaly. One good thing about near extinction of J-Pen player is that the single ply Hinoki blades don't cost $1000 upwards! Like everyone said, it's so hard to find a good single ply Hinoki. They say that lots of straight grains are the best but I've seen plenty of exceptions it made me think it's purely cosmetic.

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  13. haggisv is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Floris
    I own an Avalon Hado. 9 plies Kiso Hinoki! Super dwell-time.
    Don't think they still make those.
    Avalox still makes those, they're just very hard to get.

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    #34
    I have read some reviews on hinoki blades but most people say that they are either off+ or off blades; even though, it is described as being soft and having great dwell so it is a bit counter-initiative to me as those characteristic are generally used for ALL/OFF- blades.

    I just want to know if 1 ply hinoki is only suitable for advanced players or also for intermediate players as well.

  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by nivekkan
    What about the hinoki blades that are made of 7 ply or 5 ply of hinokis? Are they very different from a one ply both functionally and in terms of feeling? How much difference is there?
    If you are asking this, you may not have understood what I said about the Darker Speed 90. Not sure any more words will help if the statement: NOTHING FEELS AS GOOD.

    One thing to understand, some people try Hinoki and go, "Oh my, this is the holy grail. I have now glimpsed the secrets of the TT universe." Other people just don't understand it and don't get Hinoki. So, unless you have a certain kind of touch and feel in your hand, you may not get Hinoki.

    Quote Originally Posted by nivekkan
    I have read some reviews on hinoki blades but most people say that they are either off+ or off blades; even though, it is described as being soft and having great dwell so it is a bit counter-initiative to me as those characteristic are generally used for ALL/OFF- blades.

    I just want to know if 1 ply hinoki is only suitable for advanced players or also for intermediate players as well.
    Blades made of Hinoki have more gears than blades made of other woods. So a Hinoki blade can respond like an All+ blade on touch shots and then respond like an Off+ blade on loops.

    If your touch is good and you have good spin contact, you may like Hinoki. If you tend to drive and drive loop rather than making tangential spin contact, you will likely not get Hinoki.

    But, again, it is important to know that when you are talking about a 1 ply Hinoki blade, you are talking about a blade that is 10mm thick. That is almost 2 times thicker than most popular blades. And because it is only 1 ply IT IS VERY EASY TO BREAK. They split down the grain. If you broke 3 in one week, that would start getting awfully expensive.

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    #36
    Quote Originally Posted by nivekkan
    What about the hinoki blades that are made of 7 ply or 5 ply of hinokis? Are they very different from a one ply both functionally and in terms of feeling? How much difference is there?
    yes i think they have different in feeling between the 1 ply and multiply hinoki, 1 ply have more feeling and dwell, 7 ply has lesser but they are both still soft, i have 1 ply and 5 and 7 ply hinoki, hinoki feel depends on the source of the wood but they all have good feel better than other woods, yellow cypress taiwan hinoki has harder feel, but dwell is still very good, of all hinoki i have the xiom hinoki s7 7ply is the one i prefer for my game style

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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    But, again, it is important to know that when you are talking about a 1 ply Hinoki blade, you are talking about a blade that is 10mm thick. That is almost 2 times thicker than most popular blades. And because it is only 1 ply IT IS VERY EASY TO BREAK. They split down the grain. If you broke 3 in one week, that would start getting awfully expensive.
    To what extend? If you smacked it into the table when looping or dropped it on the ground, how likely would it break? 99%?

  18. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #38

    Why single-ply hinoki not popular in plastic ball era

    Quote Originally Posted by nivekkan
    To what extend? If you smacked it into the table when looping or dropped it on the ground, how likely would it break? 99%?
    You really are not getting it. Try to think about what 1 ply means. Maybe get a piece of wood that is one solid ply and look at it.


    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    You don't want the Speed-90. That would be more for hanging on your wall! Why do I say that?

    Well, first off, it is 9mm thick which is a bit too thick for serving shakehand. Second, it is heavier than you want even though that would not bother Der_Echte. Third, it is one ply which means it plays AMAZING and will get you addicted to a blade you can't realistically use in match play because it will feel better than anything and everything you have ever felt for mid-distance looping. And the fourth reason is that, because it is ONE PLY, it will break really easily and for no apparent reason. The wood splits along the grain of the plies very easily and then, that is a lot of loot down the tubes.
    That is me quoting myself from the post that Suga D made quoting me.

    This thread is old. Suga is quoting me from a thread that is even older.

    One ply blades can break in your bag. They can break because something rests on top of them. They can break because they were pressed against something else. So, not impact like banging into the table. But pressure on the blade face of any kind.

    Part of this has to do with why they began to make plywood in the first place. In plywood they line up the grains so, in the first layer the grain is going vertical, the next layer it is going horizontal, the next vertical, the next horizontal. This makes the wood stronger, because it is not subject to the weakness that exists if there is just a SINGLE PLY. It is easy to split wood along the grain.

    If you took a 6mm 7 ply blade in your hands and tried to bend it, it would be hard to break. If you did that to a single ply blade and you were bending along the line of the grain, the blade would be very easy to split in half BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY ONE PLY.

    But I think this goes to the idea of someone needing to philosophically examine theory without trying something. Go try a One Ply Hinoki blade, see how that 10mm thickness feels, and see how long it lasts before it breaks. If you are really careful and store it in a case that is unbendable, you may be able to keep it from breaking for quite a while. But definitely don't put it in your bag unless it is in a case that is solid, like, maybe steel, and unbendable, but with foam inside so the blade won't slide around. Do they make those cases any more?

    The other thing about how they break, since they split down the grain, you can have rubber on, it can be broken and you can not even realize it is broken; and you start playing and start wondering what is wrong with it. And then you take the rubber off and it falls into 3 or 4 pieces.

    Now this would happen with almost any kind of ONE PLY blade. But Hinoki is soft and particularly delicate in certain ways. So, when you are talking one ply Hinoki, that just makes it more possible.

    I know a guy who used to use them in tournaments and that kept happening to him. He was using a Darker Speed 90. After it happened the first time, he started carrying around a spare for in case. After it happened 5 more times, (that is about $1,750.00 in blades), he decided to change to a more practical blade.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-02-2019 at 01:00 PM.
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  19. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #39
    Here, this is the result of a brief search.

    Have a look at this thread:

    http://mytabletennis.net/forum/atten...702_page4.html

    And here are various photos in no particular order:

    Name:  1E6_Senkoh-1_Broken.jpg
Views: 574
Size:  28.7 KB

    Name:  P1060141_convert_20100406213213.jpg
Views: 573
Size:  28.5 KB

    Name:  IMG-5847.jpg
Views: 579
Size:  85.3 KB

    Name:  WP_20170331_12_02_25_Pro_zpsse3rkre3.jpg
Views: 564
Size:  76.5 KB

    So, 4 different blades I could find in a search that took under a minute. And a story about a One Ply Hinoki fanatic breaking his brand new one ply in his third session despite all the measures he tried to take against it happening.

    And you just cannot break a multiply blade in that way. It won't happen.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 10-02-2019 at 01:13 PM.
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  20. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #40
    Here, a photo that may give perspective on:
    1) how thick a one ply Hinoki blade can be
    and
    2) how the grain goes straight from one side to the other

    Name:  322893930.jpg
Views: 589
Size:  53.5 KB

    You can see the grain goes vertical up the blade face, and it goes straight through the side. Very easy to see how that could split right down one of the grains very easily just from any kind of pressure that would bend the blade face laterally so the stress is parallel to the grain.

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