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    1. Top | #41
      Baal is offline
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      Try it anyway. FZD is not holding his breath. Our OP might be. I see it a lot. (Also, in a picture that freezes a moment in time, players faces may be moving but it doesn't mean facial muscles are contracting, below see how relaxed Vladi is, and if you actually watch him live, the really noticeable thing is that he has tremendous power from that relaxed stroke). Part of what contributes to these kinds of forehand spin consistency problems is failure to sufficiently relax the upper body. For people with this problem (not everyone) relaxing the face can be a useful starting point. Like I said, try it. It is a zen trick. (If your face is saying grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! while you loop, probably your whole upper body is tight).

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      Last edited by Baal; 06-22-2017 at 01:44 PM.

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    3. Top | #42
      Ilia Minkin is offline
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      I am just kidding Whenever somebody brings up the facial expressions, I immediately start to think about FZD. He is the king of epic mimic!

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    5. Top | #43
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      How to keep a consistent forehand topspin ??

      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Try it anyway. FZD is not holding his breath. Our OP might be. I see it a lot. (Also, in a picture that freezes a moment in time, players faces may be moving but it doesn't mean facial muscles are contracting, below see how relaxed Vladi is, and if you actually watch him live, the really noticeable thing is that he has tremendous power from that relaxed stroke). Part of what contributes to these kinds of forehand spin consistency problems is failure to sufficiently relax the upper body. For people with this problem (not everyone) relaxing the face can be a useful starting point. Like I said, try it. It is a zen trick. (If your face is saying grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! while you loop, probably your whole upper body is tight).

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      Baal is talking about a few things. And they are deep, hard to get control over, and important.

      I am going to give a few stories. I will see it I can keep them short. I think, sometimes stories help.

      Back when I was inline skating and before I was good at it, I saw some photos that looked like I was sticking my tongue into my cheek.



      I thought, "I'm not doing that! Why do the photos come out like that?"

      As I started improving, I started feeling it and the tension associated with it. Then it stopped. But I could do it on purpose when I wanted to and that was different. Because it wasn't tense. When I stopped doing it, my level as a ramp skater definitely jumped.

      For athletic endeavor you actually need to be relaxed and able to apply force when necessary. In TT that is on impact.

      Guys like FZD probably do contract everything for a moment on impact. But it is not the kind of tension we are talking about. And right after the major force on impact, most likely, everything relaxes again.

      Now, when my wife was pregnant, we did pregnancy classes. They taught us breathing to help the birthing process; the breathing=>more relaxed=>better.

      When we were in the hospital for the real thing, one of the nurses asked us where we did the birthing classes because she was impressed at how good I was with helping her with the breathing and the whole thing. I laughed and told her I was a yoga teacher.

      I don't know about other yoga people, but the way I teach the breath is a huge part of the whole thing. The breath can really help you relax and open in a yoga practice. But the way you would breath for a yoga practice is very different from how you would breath for TT or any other sport.

      Now, what does this have to do with TT?

      I can remember a time when my breath while playing TT was horrible. And if your breath is synchronized with your stroke properly, that relaxedness Baal is talking about is much more likely to happen. In fact I would say they are not entirely separate. And in spite of having years of training in using my breath to help me relax into extremely stressful yoga posses:





      I still had no idea that my breathing was so erratic and tense while playing TT. And if you are not conscious of something like that, you cannot change it.

      For me, shadow strokes are what helped me get the breath happening as well. When the ball wasn't there, I was able to focus on every detail of the stroke and it really helped certain things fall into place that, for me personally, I couldn't get to happen while focusing on contacting the ball. When I was freed from the need to focus on the ball, I could focus on many different aspects of the stroke and get them into muscle memory. A powerful exhale timed to impact is one of them.

      It did take more work to get the shadow stroke fully into training. And even more to get that into match play. But I can remember the first time I heard a vocalized exhale timed to my stroke while actually hitting. And around the time that started happening is when my loops became a lot better than they had been.

      So don't sell Baal's info short. He is talking about a couple of things that sound simple but really are complex to manage. And they are very important.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-22-2017 at 06:43 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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    7. Top | #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin View Post


      And it is easy to see how close to impact these photos are.


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    8. Top | #45
      Baal is offline
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      Actually, I think there are different ways to go about controlling breathing (which thereby relaxes upper body at the right time). One is the grunting you hear from people like Dima (and martial artists). A somewhat different thing is the almost serene relaxation you see from Vladi. There are other ways too, I suspect.

      But here is the thing, if you are holding your breath (some people do it without knowing it), or if you face is contracted all the time (grrrrrrrr!!!!!), your swing will be constricted. So your follow through will not be loose and complete. So you won't get good weight transfer. And that means you may be well and truly screwed on the next shot, depending on where the ball goes, and in the course of a rally, you get in worse and worse shape.

      So try it before laughing at the idea. Relax your face during the rally. (But don't forget to move your feet). It doesn't cost anything. You might be one of the people who is helped by this trick. (I didn't just make it up at the spur of the moment, and the idea didn't originate with me).
      Last edited by Baal; 06-22-2017 at 06:27 PM.

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    10. Top | #46
      fais is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ilia Minkin View Post


      I suspect IM is joking here. Actually, the fact that FZD is making these faces somewhat proves that he plays relaxed and clenches at the moment of impact.

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    12. Top | #47
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      I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Baal View Post
      Actually, I think there are different ways to go about controlling breathing (which thereby relaxes upper body at the right time). One is the grunting you hear from people like Dima (and martial artists). A somewhat different thing is the almost serene relaxation you see from Vladi. There are other ways too, I suspect.

      But here is the thing, if you are holding your breath (some people do it without knowing it), or if you face is contracted all the time (grrrrrrrr!!!!!), your swing will be constricted. So your follow through will not be loose and complete. So you won't get good weight transfer. And that means you may be well and truly screwed on the next shot, depending on where the ball goes, and in the course of a rally, you get in worse and worse shape.

      So try it before laughing at the idea. Relax your face during the rally. (But don't forget to move your feet). It doesn't cost anything. You might be one of the people who is helped by this trick. (I didn't just make it up at the spur of the moment, and the idea didn't originate with me).
      Lets go Spinny Looping !

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    14. Top | #48
      Suga D is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...
      Nice. I think i have been talking with OSPH about this a while ago.

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    16. Top | #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...
      Create the thread. It will be a fun one.


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    18. Top | #50
      ttmonster is offline
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      OSPH has been suspiciously missing in action for a few days now, I think he has been finally grounded by his better half for not playing shakehand and trying to mobilize people to form a penhold cult
      Quote Originally Posted by Suga D View Post
      Nice. I think i have been talking with OSPH about this a while ago.

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    20. Top | #51
      Overseer Kevin is offline
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      I can fix this problem with two training techniques.

      1. Find the best active blocker in your club and make him better!
      - Practice against the best blocker you can find repeatedly. Power the ball to him time after time and allow him to move you around. Try your best to hit the ball with the forehand as much as possible. Stay as close to the table as possible, but eventually a good blocker will make you adjust and probably take a step back every once in a while. That's good because you will need to fight to get back to the table and get into your best position.

      2. Find two people and make them excellent blockers!
      - I saw this exercise while watching China practice. Tried it, and it works. You stand on the forehand side against two blockers on the other side of the table. One cross table blocking back to your forehand, the other blocker stands down the line and blocks back down the line to your forehand. This exercise helps tremendously with recovery, placement, movement, power, spin. Great exercise. Start slow with non active blocks and then later add active blocks to increase you agility, and recovery.
      Last edited by Overseer Kevin; 09-28-2017 at 08:19 AM.
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    21. Top | #52
      talbon is offline
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      (3 months old :/ so not much point but)
      I'm surprised nobody mentioned to Khang just how fast his blade seems to be. To me, it looked like you are controlling/blocking your stroke so that the ball lands on the table instead of outside, hence the impression that you don't have a consistent followthrough.

      It strikes me even when you're just bouncing the ball on the table to give it to your opponent or to start the rally, and on your serves.

      The advantage of your setup is that you can generate some spin almost mechanically as long as you roughly do a topspin gesture. The negative side is that
      1) you have limited control in drills and probably very little control in games, and
      2) you would generate more spin and speed (with tremendously higher consistency) with a good allround/offensive setup and better technique. It's going to be difficult to improve your technique if you're always thinking of not overshooting.

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    23. Top | #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by talbon View Post
      (3 months old :/ so not much point but)
      I'm surprised nobody mentioned to Khang just how fast his blade seems to be. To me, it looked like you are controlling/blocking your stroke so that the ball lands on the table instead of outside, hence the impression that you don't have a consistent followthrough.

      It strikes me even when you're just bouncing the ball on the table to give it to your opponent or to start the rally, and on your serves.

      The advantage of your setup is that you can generate some spin almost mechanically as long as you roughly do a topspin gesture. The negative side is that
      1) you have limited control in drills and probably very little control in games, and
      2) you would generate more spin and speed (with tremendously higher consistency) with a good allround/offensive setup and better technique. It's going to be difficult to improve your technique if you're always thinking of not overshooting.
      I notice you use Joola Rhyzm-P. Can you tell me a bit about the rubber. I've seen a few people using it but I haven't tried it myself. Can you compare it to tenergy 05, or Tibhar MX-P.

    24. Top | #54
      langel is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...
      Yes, I'd like such a thread.
      In my thread about TT&Martial Arts I've mentioned that breathing techniques in both are much similar and very important and that breathing techniques are not very discussed, so I'll be glad to see some discussion on that.

    25. Top | #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Overseer Kevin View Post
      I notice you use Joola Rhyzm-P. Can you tell me a bit about the rubber. I've seen a few people using it but I haven't tried it myself. Can you compare it to tenergy 05, or Tibhar MX-P.
      I wish I could provide good feedback but unfortunately I came to it (in 2.0mm) from tenergy 25 (in 1.8mm) when looking for a cheaper alternative. A review on tabletennisdb picked my curiosity and to my surprise I had a very similar experience to the other user.

      Overall the rubber has a very pleasant feel to me. I'll stick to subjective/qualitative comments for lack of attempting a fair comparison at the time.

      If you've ever touched the rubber, it's quite different from a tenergy sheet (medium-hard in comparison, and much less crumbly as well). Turns out it plays pretty much like it feels. What I noticed immediately was more feedback on strokes, along with more potential for spin and power. I could feel (and consciously control) the increased grip, spin and/or power on aggressive drives and pushes. More importantly, my feel correlated well with the player's experience on the other side (for instance, block going high and long). In comparison, my t25 sheets were a bit more dead and decidedly fall a little short on everything. Control with Rhythm-P is on par (or indeed better considering the feedback).

      Because the feeling is so rewarding on good aggressive drives off the bounce, I'd say it ended up making a small difference in my active BH game and technique. For all kinds of passive or aggressive BH blocks and punches, I didn't notice much change from t25 (it's just as comfortable, a bit more power if I want).

      Of course this is all highly subjective, and playstyle has much to do with it. I tend to play aggressively, close to the table, with power/spin (mostly on FH), pace (even more so on BH) and pace variation/placement (to set up my forehand or to open the table for a fast counter/punch). I'm comfortable fishing or looping from further back, but the point is that I typically don't use those highly "brushing" high-arc loops much (other than to derail the opponent's timing). I would expect players who "brush" more than "hit" into the ball to generate spin to have a very different feel altogether.

      MX-P is a rubber I'm curious about but haven't given a very good try to yet. In the past I've tried tenergy 05 and it didn't click, but I think I was the one to blame. Recently I've tried bats from friends and liked their t05 just fine, without being overly impressed either (I'm probably still to blame).
      Last edited by talbon; 09-28-2017 at 05:23 PM.

    26. Top | #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by langel View Post
      Yes, I'd like such a thread.
      In my thread about TT&Martial Arts I've mentioned that breathing techniques in both are much similar and very important and that breathing techniques are not very discussed, so I'll be glad to see some discussion on that.
      I guess this is what happens when old threads get woken up. Necromancy leads to things like this.

      I believe there was an old thread on the subject that was an outgrowth of Monster’s comment. I will see if I can find it.


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