Breathing Techniques in Table tennis

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In karate they make sound for impact. People who don't understand, don't get it. But that is also pretty much what you want whether you phonate or not.

Karatekas call it 'kiai'.

In the late 1970s before he won the middleweight crown, I had the good fortune to watch Marvelous Marvin Hagler train. I will never forget the sound of his breathing. For every punch he threw, there was what I am calling a forced exhale; a huffing sound. It sounded like if you went "huh" with some force. Every punch, that sound.

*JEALOUS* That's awesome Carl!

An aside... Muay Thai boxers also are known for their sounds as they execute their strikes (punches, kicks, elbows and knees).

FWIW, some other martial arts also makes sounds as they perform their techniques. In Hung Ga (best known as the martial art of Wong Fei-hung - Jet Li portrayed him in the Once Upon a Time in China movie series; style is also know for some of the animal styles - Tiger/Crane, Snake, Dragon, Leopard, etc), one of the intermediate or advanced training involves making different sounds for different purposes. Only read about it in an article, don't recall specifics.

The closest thing I can think of to a breath technique from Yoga that would be sort of similar to how you breath for TT would be the breath technique called kapalabhati.

Will research kapalabhati. Thank you Carl!
 
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Hi Fellow TTD-ers ,

Hi ttmonster :)

Case in point, a few weeks back I was drilling with a club member and was getting out of breath when power looping forehands agianst his blocks.

I will mention the obvious, as that is usually overlooked ... are you relaxed while you were power looping? I get out of breath when i loop or power loop as I have too many mechnics on my mind ... bend knees, rotate body, whip arm, reset, etc ... i tense up at times and fatigue.

~osph
 
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Hi OSPH :)
Thanks for pointing it out ...
Sometimes I am , sometimes I am not , if I remember to tell myself to relax I am ... however, I was talking about general stamina when powerlooping and this guy showed me that timing the forced exhale with the shot helps in prolonging the stamina ...
Hi ttmonster :)



I will mention the obvious, as that is usually overlooked ... are you relaxed while you were power looping? I get out of breath when i loop or power loop as I have too many mechnics on my mind ... bend knees, rotate body, whip arm, reset, etc ... i tense up at times and fatigue.

~osph
 
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Thanks Carl, great info!
Where's that Super-Like button again?
[Emoji6]

I think we need to get Dan to recognize your contribution to the forum when you created the Super-Like button. [emoji2]

The subject of the breath is one I clearly love. Breathing patterns and movement patterns are both often talked about and thought about in a way that is counterproductive.

Here is a story to illustrate the point. About 15 years ago I was studying movement with this great teacher. He was always trying to teach about movement patterns and how, if you get your mind to understand the quality of movement and the goal of the particular movement, how the limbs should move in space, the movement pattern would automatically start to improve.

But, often, how people try to look at movement is to try and analyze what muscles contract to create a movement. And this is a very flawed way of thinking about improving a movement skill. Even if, in working with weights in a gym it is okay to isolate and work specific muscles. That is different.

So, in this one particular class there was this student who kept asking questions. And really, they were the same question over and over. The question was simply asked about different movements. "What muscles work to create this movement?" Finally after the 5th or 6th time of him giving an answer he got frustrated. That original answers made it clear to everyone else in the room that, based on how we were looking at movement, this line of inquiry was flawed. And when he got frustrated he said:

"Do you see this movement?"

And he stood up from his seat and sat back down again. And he repeated the question for emphasis. And then he stood up and sat back down again. And then he said:

"It takes over 180 muscles working in a complex sequence and timing, for me to make that movement. If I had to think about what muscles I used, I would never be able to get up. If that was the case, our ancestors would never have been able to run away from predators and we would have become extinct long ago. For learning these movement patterns and getting them into your body, what you are asking is beside the point."

In yoga, often different kinds of breathing patterns are used and explored. It is actually a unique scenario. In yoga, in both the postures and the movements, and also in the breathing techniques, you are slowing things down so you can play with, change and manipulate different aspects of postural alignment, movement or breathing.

Since we are on the subject of the breath, I will use examples of breath techniques.

1) There are some techniques where you breath in a way so that your abdomen expands.
2 Other techniques where you focus on expanding your chest.
3 Techniques where you expand your abdomen, then ribs, then chest.
4 Other techniques where you expand your chest, then your rib-cage then your abdomen.
5 Ones where you try and expand everything at the same time.
6 Ones where you try and expand areas of the back of the body.

And the list goes on. And often people assume, like in the website that has the article about breathing for TT, that one of those techniques is better than the others. But properly understood, the techniques are for freeing your breath so it can do what it needs to in various situations.

It is good to learn how to breathe in different ways and it is healthy and worthwhile practicing various breathing techniques, at least for those who have the time and the patience. But in real life activities, you should not try and do those kinds of things to the breath. The body does already know how to breath. And breathing, is a lot like that statement from that movement teacher:

If you try to control the breath too consciously in a real life activity, you can do more harm than good. If you focus on the quality of the breath, that can be helpful. But you should not use an idea about breathing to get in the way of the breathing process.

And I can't tell you how many foolish yoga teachers who thought they were learning the "correct" way to breathe because they were taught some foolish system that made them think there was a "correct" way to breathe. And they tried to apply that to something like running to their own detriment.


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Just one comment:
the writer is completely right, but it's very hard to teach diaphragmatic breathing someone without personal contact.

Sorry to be the breathing curmudgeon but here is another one of those BAD TERMINOLOGY Issues.

When you inhale YOUR DIAPHRAGM CONTRACTS. When you exhale YOUR DIAPHRAGM RELAXES. Your diaphragm contracts on almost every inhale of your life.

But somehow, in terminology, belly breathing often gets associated with DIAPHRAGMATIC BREATHING and other kinds of breathing get associated with NON-DIAPHRAGMATIC BREATHING and this is generally a false association because your diaphragm contracts for ANY ACTIVE INHALE and to perform an inhale without the contraction of the diaphragm, you have to do something unique.

An example would be, if you were very relaxed and someone did something like the Heimlich Maneuver on you, where they pushed in on your abdomen forcefully, which would push your diaphragm up, cause the space in your lungs to be made considerably smaller and force the air out of your lungs in a powerful rush--if someone did that, and you were actually able to stay relaxed--when the contents of your abdomen were pulled back down towards the ground by gravity, they would the central tendon of your diaphragm down and that would enlarge the space in your lungs, AND THIS WOULD CAUSE AN INHALE WITHOUT any need of a contraction from your Diaphragm.

There is a way to do this to yourself and it is a breathing technique I already referred to: KAPALABHATI. The mechanism is exactly the same as what I described with the Heimlich Maneuver, except you are pulling your belly in from the muscles in your abdomen (transversely abdominis muscle--doh, don't do that![emoji2]) to force the air out. And it takes some practice to learn how to relax after and let the abdomen fall and keep the muscles of the torso and the diaphragm relaxed. When people don't know how to stay relaxed during Kapalabhati, they get out of breath, hyperventilate and cannot keep up the technique for very long. Once you are able to do it, you can continue the technique for quite a while without a problem.

There are a few body work techniques that could create an inhale without the help of the diaphragm contracting. And short of those things that most human beings will never have happen to them in their lives, all other inhales result from a contraction of the diaphragm. Without that autonomic response that causes your diaphragm to contract at regular intervals, we would all die in our sleep. [emoji2]

What parts of your torso appear to change shape when you inhale are entirely determined by what muscles in your torso are relaxed and which other muscles are tensed.

In a breath that changes the shape of your belly, the muscles in your lower ribs need to contract to stabilize your rib-cage. When the diaphragm contracts and pulls on the circumference of the rib-cage, and the rib-cage does not change shape, it causes the central tendon of the diaphragm to be pulled down and that causes the belly to be pushed out.

When you keep your abdomen engaged and pulled in or, flat when you inhale, you stabilize your abdominal region and, if the muscles of the chest and rib-cage are relaxed the diaphragm contracting will pull the lower ribs out and up causing the chest and rib-cage to expand.

There are places where either of these breathing mechanisms would be useful. And there are places where either would be problematic.

BUT NEITHER ACTUALLY APPLY TO TABLE TENNIS.



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Wow carl ! @SugaD : I think when you like a "Super Moderator's" post its automatically a "super-like"

Hahahahaha.

When I get a chance, a little later today, I will give the story of why it says super moderator. [emoji2]

It is not because I delete so many posts which contain personal attacks; or that I delete as much spam as I can find. It has something to do with the goon squad. [emoji2]


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I think if you had said "One Man Goon Squad" instead of "Goon squad member" he would have agreed :D ...
I originally asked Dan to make it say "Goon Squad Member" instead of "Moderator" but he wouldn't. [emoji2]


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Will research kapalabhati. Thank you Carl!

Kapalabhati: non-diaphragmatic breathing.

This one is decent. I have seen all of the wrong ways he shows. So it is kind of funny to me.


I was trying to look for another one that was decent. But I didn't find any.

Maybe I should make one of me doing it. The flaw with most of the videos was too much talking. And then the person making the video was not really doing the technique well. Kind of funny. All that talk and they don't even know what they are doing. LOL.

But I guess that is how some people learn. This guy knows what he is doing so this video should be enough.


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Hi ttmonster :)



I will mention the obvious, as that is usually overlooked ... are you relaxed while you were power looping? I get out of breath when i loop or power loop as I have too many mechnics on my mind ... bend knees, rotate body, whip arm, reset, etc ... i tense up at times and fatigue.

~osph

This is a great post.

And it illustrates what I was talking about about improving movement patterns or breathing patterns.

There is a time and a place for working on all the details to tweak technique. There are ways to do that. But ultimately you have to relax and let your body do what it already knows how to do.

You guide your body to know the right movement or breathing patterns, but then you let the body do what it does.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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yes this is the guy I was talking about ... he has now created a multi million Yoga empire ... with huge influence even in political cirlces in India ... hint hint :) .. waiting for that Private Jet connecting New York to San Jose ...
Kapalabhati: non-diaphragmatic breathing.

This one is decent. I have seen all of the wrong ways he shows. So it is kind of funny to me.


I was trying to look for another one that was decent. But I didn't find any.

Maybe I should make one of me doing it. The flaw with most of the videos was too much talking. And then the person making the video was not really doing the technique well. Kind of funny. All that talk and they don't even know what they are doing. LOL.

But I guess that is how some people learn. This guy knows what he is doing so this video should be enough.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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This is a great post.

And it illustrates what I was talking about about improving movement patterns or breathing patterns.

There is a time and a place for working on all the details to tweak technique. There are ways to do that. But ultimately you have to relax and let your body do what it already knows how to do.

You guide your body to know the right movement or breathing patterns, but then you let the body do what it does.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

And that's why Carl is like 4+ levels above me!
 
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OSPH is like ...

desktop-1409239994

And that's why Carl is like 4+ levels above me!
 
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Yes, I'd like such a thread.
In my thread about TT&Martial Arts I've mentioned that breathing techniques in both are much similar and very important and that breathing techniques are not very discussed, so I'll be glad to see some discussion on that.

Bumping this thread for langel since he asked.
 
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Yes, Carl, this is a library!
And while I was reading your post #25 in this thread, I remembered a passage from a book of J.K. Jarome, I think, something like that - "I was enjoying few drinks in a pub, and a fellow sitting to me had the brilliant idea to explain me the role of every one of the more than 40 muscles of a leg. And I was drinking and I was listening. Drinking happened to be good, but I should not say the same for the listening. When I stood up to go home I suddenly realized that I'll never be able to control all that muscles again."
 
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