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    1. Top | #21
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Forehand loop internal shoulder rotation

      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      Maybe I am visualizing a different meaning.

      The shoulder rotation I do is both shoulders turn horizontal.

      There is also an independent movement of my hitting shoulder if I stay loose.

      The only internal rotation I have is on a BH shot... Mostly on the follow through of a banana flip or a longer stroker using more wrist.

      When i tore my rotator cuff when I was mostly out of tt, I could not do any of those BH shots for months until I healed to 60%...
      Der_, you are confusing internal and external rotation. But here is some more info for you.

      You injured your shoulder doing something other than TT. Your shoulder injury was not good.

      Your shoulder did not want to do those movements because it was injured.

      But here goes:

      On BH shots there is EXTERNAL rotation of the shoulder in the swing and the backswing requires internal rotation.

      If you look at the video in the OP it actually shows internal rotation of the shoulder.

      In a tennis FH there is a lot of internal rotation of the shoulder and they even let the elbow go above the hand in the stroke.

      In a table tennis FH stroke, there is some but not nearly as much internal rotation of the shoulder. And there is no point in a TT FH where the elbow should go above the hand and racket. The elbow should always be below the hand in an FH stroke.

      When your rotator cuff muscles were torn, any of the movements we are talking about would have hurt. That is because the head of your humerus was subluxating from the gleno-humeral joint. A healthy rotator cuff muscle keeps the gleno-humeral joint stable and tracking in the joint. When your external rotators are torn, the joint is easy to subluxate and dislocate. And both of those hurt.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-05-2017 at 05:29 PM.
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    2. Top | #22
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      The point is any shot whether in table tennis or in other sports , unless we are talking about Chess , is like a linked chain ... infact our bodies are just like that , if you think of it even for a smile there are hundreds of facial muscles that twitch , so I feel its point less to argue whether there is internal rotation of the shoulder involved in table tennis FH shot or not , Like Carl is saying you can always say that the degree of rotation is less compared to tennis , but then even within table tennis the degree will change, if you are flicking, it could be miniscule, if you are driving close to the table it could be a little more, if you are farther away from the table it will keep increasing , no matter whether you are Ma Lin , Ma Long or Timo Boll , whether the style is Chinese or European ... if there is any degree of forearm snap movement with a horizontal ( edit ) component there has to be some movement in the shoulder .... its only possible in the backhand to move the wrist for loop drives off the bounce without moving the shoulder , but even that is purely theoretical and there are shoulder muscles involved , and the player will adjust it during game play and there will be some external rotation in the follow through and some internal rotation in the backswing phase .... its just in tennis is more pronounced and visible because the horizontal component involved ...
      Last edited by ttmonster; 07-05-2017 at 06:37 PM.
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    4. Top | #23
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      Look at what J.O. Waldner does in the second half of the 90s or after (for instance, 1997 WTTC final or against Ma Lin in the 2004 Olympics) for a clean, relaxed shot.

      I rotate the whole body trunk whenever I get to execute a clean shot. I switched to that technique once I became more conscious of injury risks and I feel it improved my game. The abs do some work as well as the shoulders, wrist and other muscles but I don't feel like I have to really tense up anything to throw a SCUD on the other side. This is a very smooth move with a very fast recovery if you let everything flow naturally. It generates a lot of speed, spin, it makes it very natural to vary between power shots and touch shots, very comfortable on heavy backspin balls as well, and stays controlled both close up and far from the table. The most natural stroke would probably have side-spin on it and a very low arc, although slight adjustments will yield pure topspin or side-spin in the other direction.

      Same technique for flat, regular paced strokes. The motion is rather similar to what Oh Sang Eun is doing here: youtu.be/Z42CD-a3lOg (simply with more rotation, wrist and leg work for topspin). The head doesn't bounce up and down, for consistency and recovery. I've seen practice videos where Wang Liqin uses that kind of motion, and in games he would not always do it to a T, so I suspect even professional players do what they can given the limited amount of time they have.

      But then Timo Boll has a different stroke, many professionals have different techniques. Backhand oriented players especially, or players who go with very arched/spinny ball trajectories that might require different technique. Then others sometimes lock the elbow for a straight arm/forearm during the action, like Schlager who uses that to hide whether he's going down the line or cross-court, or ZJK who sometimes seems to fully rely on wrist acceleration.

      Lastly against a rota loop, people just go over the ball with a more compact counterloop motion instead (essentially just redirect/guide the ball by brushing or slapping over it), which is after all a big part of modern rallies at the table.
      Last edited by talbon; 07-06-2017 at 01:11 AM. Reason: fix url

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    6. Top | #24
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      I probably need to stop mixing up my tennis and table tennis strokes, they seem to be different.

      There is even a german tennis player who likes to play table tennis in rain delays and he says he uses his left hand for table tennis to not mix up the strokes and get bad habits. The same thing is probably also true vice versa for table tennis players.

      Regarding the internal arm rotation that never gave me problems in tennis but maybe it could be more dangerous with the lighter table tennis racket.

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    8. Top | #25
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      Forehand loop internal shoulder rotation

      I think Monster's point about not needing to get too technical is a good one.

      Terms like internal and external rotation can get confusing to people.

      The comparison between a tennis stroke and a table tennis stroke can be broken down like this:

      In tennis the stroke goes further across the body and less up so that the racket finishes at about shoulder height with the hand or sometimes the elbow near the opposite shoulder.

      In table tennis the stroke goes more down to up and finishes higher, but does not usually go too far across the midline. So the followthrough of the stroke, in table tennis finishes with the racket about the height of the forehead just above the eyes and, ideally, over the space between the two eyes.

      Sometimes, with maximum effort you see top players followthrough a little more like the tennis followthrough. But those players already have the technique of finishing at the midline. And those are usually for massive strokes from mid-distance where the player has a little more time to reset. And often those larger strokes come when a player is trying to finish a point.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-05-2017 at 10:22 PM.

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    10. Top | #26
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      I take a different stance on this, for me if I don't think too consciously about these things they don't get messed up. For example , in US and India they drive on different sides of the road . A lot of people say its difficult for them to switch , for me its not been a problem so far , because I drive a car in US and a bike in India , I just tell myself these are two different things ....

      Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85 View Post
      I probably need to stop mixing up my tennis and table tennis strokes, they seem to be different.

      There is even a german tennis player who likes to play table tennis in rain delays and he says he uses his left hand for table tennis to not mix up the strokes and get bad habits. The same thing is probably also true vice versa for table tennis players.

      Regarding the internal arm rotation that never gave me problems in tennis but maybe it could be more dangerous with the lighter table tennis racket.

    11. Top | #27
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      OK, I was thinking of a different axis of rotation and different point. (like the twisting of the arm right on the shoulder socket) (I think now you are meaning the entire side of shoulder going forward or backwards some)

      If one keeps the shoulder loose (and all the other chain muscles loose), one can add to the whip or move the shoulders as a whole sooner (like when you want to whip Crosscourt suddenly. I loosen shoulder and a little of the "Internal Rotation" and add whip and spin to the spin shot. You have to be loose or you will move like 8x8 big truck all axels lock drive and you can tear stuff up over time, not a good idea.
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    12. Top | #28
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      My shoulder moves forward and up some naturally if I'm loose. Isn't it basically required for a safe follow-through? At least, my elbow doesn't feel too good swinging hard and trying to stop against the inertia.

    13. Top | #29
      Der_Echte is online now
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      If you watch the last FH vid of Kim Jung Hoon I gisted, you can see how he uses the shoulder in the standard stroke. He doesn't compete against muscles, he rotates the shoulders on line back, then on swing before impact moves them forward, so that at impact force to ball is maximized and very little shoulder movement after contact is needed, makes reset easier.

      In his other vids, he shows tricks o how to use each shoulder independently in certain situations, like pulling back upper arm (and external backward rotation) the non hitting shoulder to whip both non and hitting shoulder forward earlier and add some 10% more power.

    14. Top | #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      OK, I was thinking of a different axis of rotation and different point. (like the twisting of the arm right on the shoulder socket) (I think now you are meaning the entire side of shoulder going forward or backwards some)

      If one keeps the shoulder loose (and all the other chain muscles loose), one can add to the whip or move the shoulders as a whole sooner (like when you want to whip Crosscourt suddenly. I loosen shoulder and a little of the "Internal Rotation" and add whip and spin to the spin shot. You have to be loose or you will move like 8x8 big truck all axels lock drive and you can tear stuff up over time, not a good idea.
      I talked about a rotation around the arms long axis (turn hand palm up to Palm down like when turning a screwdriver). With the tennis players the racket will brush up and then go down again like a windshield wiper

      https://goo.gl/images/vEvVtN

      In table tennis it seems like the racket usually finishes pointing up.

    15. Top | #31
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Forehand loop internal shoulder rotation

      Since Der_Echte is confusing Archo and a confused Archo trying to pretend he knows what is going on is a dangerous thing, I made a tutorial video.

      Hopefully this will answer the OP's question in visual form while showing Der_Echte and Archo what the discussion is actually about.

      Look closely at the dot on my arm!



      By the way, when I am talking about a BH in the video, I am talking about a table tennis BH. A tennis BH is very different whether one handed or two handed. That little isolated movement I am showing for BH would not get the ball to the net from the baseline in tennis. But in table tennis that is what produces the most speed and spin because it provides the quickest means of getting the fastest acceleration in a small amount of time.

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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-06-2017 at 04:07 PM.

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    17. Top | #32
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      Wonderful video Carl ! I also got to learn the correct pronunciation of "Der_Echte" ...
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Since Der_Echte is confusing Archo and a confused Archo trying to pretend he knows what is going on is a dangerous thing, I made a tutorial video.

      Hopefully this will answer the OP's question in visual form while showing Der_Echte and Archo what the discussion is actually about.

      Look closely at the dot on my arm!



      By the way, when I am talking about a BH in the video, I am talking about a table tennis BH. A tennis BH is very different whether one handed or two handed. That little isolated movement I am showing for BH would not get the ball to the net from the baseline in tennis. But in table tennis that is what produces the most speed and spin because it provides the quickest means of getting the fastest acceleration in a small amount of time.

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    19. Top | #33
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      Forehand loop internal shoulder rotation

      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      Wonderful video Carl ! I also got to learn the correct pronunciation of "Der_Echte" ...
      I am not sure I pronounced correctly. I may have left off the e sound at the end. But I know Der_Echte knows how to pronounce his name. Hahahaha.

      I guess the video is not bad for doing it while getting ready to go to work.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-06-2017 at 08:10 PM.

    20. Top | #34
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      I got the notification when you published on Youtube , since I am subscribed to your channel , but did not get a chance to check TTD till I arrived at work... the video is good , I got it the first time but hopefully this will clear it up for the grandfather of chicken ... not crocodile for sure ...


      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I am not sure I pronounced correctly. I may have left off the e should at the end. But I know Der_Echte knows how to pronounce his name. Hahahaha.

      I guess the video is not bad for doing it while getting ready to go to work.


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    22. Top | #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      I got it the first time but hopefully this will clear it up for the grandfather of chicken ... not crocodile for sure ...

      Okay. This gave me the best laugh I've had in a few weeks.


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    24. Top | #36
      ttmonster is offline
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      I thought the background of evolution and physiology might just help in explaining so many of the issues that Archo faces and then magically evolves through , after all he has mr. Darwin on his side ... who is Ma Long !
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Okay. This gave me the best laugh I've had in a few weeks.


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    26. Top | #37
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      Take a look at the young Koki Niwa's forehand loop(more like a drive), starts at 2:40

      His followthrough ends on the other side of his head.
      Then look at Harimoto's forehand loop, starts at 0:46

      Long followthrough again, which doesn't stop at the midline.
      Just an observation.

    27. Top | #38
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      Forehand loop internal shoulder rotation

      Quote Originally Posted by ajtatosmano2 View Post
      Take a look at the young Koki Niwa's forehand loop(more like a drive), starts at 2:40

      His followthrough ends on the other side of his head.
      Then look at Harimoto's forehand loop, starts at 0:46

      Long followthrough again, which doesn't stop at the midline.
      Just an observation.
      It is true. There are a lot of players who sometimes go a little across the midline.

      But those strokes are still good and go from low to high and the racket goes farther across because of shoulder flexion rather than internal rotation. Whereas, a tennis stroke goes almost straight across just below head height.



      One of these strokes near the beginning looks almost like a TT stroke where the racket goes more up. The rest, his followthrough position, the hand is finishing near his left shoulder and at shoulder height. Which means, below his head. So the tennis stroke goes more forward and across and a TT stroke goes more up and less across.

      I can find footage of many top players where they do cross their midline. But you train not to. So that when there is a reason to go across, you still go across and UP rather than flat as most players do most of the time in tennis.



      Even the stroke that is being described as forward and upward for more topspin in this second video does not go higher than shoulder height and the followthrough, the hand holding the racket ends at the opposite shoulder.

      I have seen Ma Long and many others end with a followthrough like that on specific shots. But it would be worth understanding when those TT players do that and why and you can still notice that the basic stroke is mostly forward and up and not across the body.

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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-06-2017 at 07:33 PM.

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    29. Top | #39
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      As I was saying earlier, Table tennis is a game that is played too quick to stick to the exact shot form , so there will always be exceptions based on the ball coming in and what the player is trying to do , however you will also have players that have slightly different techniques , you have Aruna Quadri trying to hit like Nadal , or Timo Boll with his unique technique on the forehand , more across the body than others , or even that famous video of Michael Maze hitting banana's on his backhand around the nets from far off the table with the chinese team stopping their dinner and watching him do that with mouth hanging open

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    31. Top | #40
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      Also, if you notice, in the tennis stroke, the elbow actually crosses the midline of the body as the arm goes across.

      In the footage of Koki and Harimoto the elbow is forward in front of the face and it is higher than the tennis followthrough. And it does not cross the midline.


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