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    1. Top | #41
      ajtatosmano2 is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Also, if you notice, in the tennis stroke, the elbow actually crosses the midline of the body as the arm goes across.

      In the footage of Koki and Harimoto the elbow is forward in front of the face and it is higher than the tennis followthrough. And it does not cross the midline.


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      I can find footage of many top players where they do cross their midline. But you train not to. So that when there is a reason to go across, you still go across and UP rather than flat as most players do most of the time in tennis.
      I didn't want to compare these loops to the tennis stroke, the differences are huge. I've just remember that people say that crossing the midline with your racket is bad. It's understandable why: it's harder to recover if you do. But it seems some players do this and train like this. I don't want to say that it's better,it's just an observation.

    2. Top | #42
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Okay. Some players do finish a little across. Not a big deal.

      I think optimal strokes are going to change person by person. And then each ball is different so you have to adjust the stroke to the incoming ball as well.

      Those strokes from Niwa and Harimoto are fine. They are not going too far past the midline. And if you do train a lot, reset is easier with more training and more strength from the training.

      But for the OP's question about internal rotation of the shoulder, even those strokes show how the bend in the elbow replaces the function of the internal rotation of the shoulder in a tennis stroke.


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    3. Top | #43
      Dominikk85 is offline
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      Yeah I could see why the "wrap around the body" finish that works in tennis would take too long to recover in table tennis.

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    5. Top | #44
      ttmonster is offline
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      See the another thing to keep in mind is that table tennis played on a table where the ball pretty much bounces between the height of elbow to shoulder 90% of the time , where as in tennis the ball bounces on the ground ... other than the pretty obvious difference of speed .... so I think the basic idea is still the same "wrap around the ball" , if you take the racquet head of the tennis forehand and compare it to the face of the paddle , I don't think there would be a whole of lot of difference on basic elements of how to wrap around the ball the ball with spin when you account for differences of the ball and the racquet materials ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85 View Post
      Yeah I could see why the "wrap around the body" finish that works in tennis would take too long to recover in table tennis.
      Lets go Spinny Looping !

    6. Top | #45
      NextLevel is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by ajtatosmano2 View Post
      I didn't want to compare these loops to the tennis stroke, the differences are huge. I've just remember that people say that crossing the midline with your racket is bad. It's understandable why: it's harder to recover if you do. But it seems some players do this and train like this. I don't want to say that it's better,it's just an observation.
      IT's more complicated than that, but yes, this is standard French/German/Japanese technique. Chinese players generally do not finish that way on base forehands for a variety of reasons unless their racket is crossing at Eye level in order to increase the radius of their stroke. When your technique is not perfect, it is often the explanation for why your game is worse than someone else's whether it is the true reason or not. But I will say that if this is the forehand you hit all the time, you will not be able to hit certain shots that are more powerful with straighter arm. But this shallow forehand finishing low across the body is hit by all players, just not on difficult or tricky balls.
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    8. Top | #46
      Archosaurus is offline
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      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      Okay. Some players do finish a little across. Not a big deal.

      I think optimal strokes are going to change person by person. And then each ball is different so you have to adjust the stroke to the incoming ball as well.

      Those strokes from Niwa and Harimoto are fine. They are not going too far past the midline. And if you do train a lot, reset is easier with more training and more strength from the training.

      But for the OP's question about internal rotation of the shoulder, even those strokes show how the bend in the elbow replaces the function of the internal rotation of the shoulder in a tennis stroke.


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      People have different arm lengths, so I don't think it's such a big deal if the stroke finishes a little bit across. Forcing it to finish dead center could not be ideal.

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      UpSideDownCarl (07-06-2017)

    10. Top | #47
      Der_Echte is online now
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      The internsl rotation movement is essentisl right at the table. I will use that I.R. at the table.

      Anything behind endline, i use a different fh stroke that requires much less internal rotation.

      What gives me more spin than other players you face is my leverage and a grip adjustment that if I stay loose while I explode, and firm up grip right at impact, gives that result.

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      UpSideDownCarl (07-06-2017)

    12. Top | #48
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      The internsl rotation movement is essentisl right at the table. I will use that I.R. at the table.

      Anything behind endline, i use a different fh stroke that requires much less internal rotation.

      What gives me more spin than other players you face is my leverage and a grip adjustment that if I stay loose while I explode, and firm up grip right at impact, gives that result.
      I think 100+kg of weight transfer helps.


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      ttmonster (07-06-2017)

    14. Top | #49
      Der_Echte is online now
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      That is good for blunt force trama yes, but cmon, how rapidly can one move 110 kg into action without being a bear?

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      UpSideDownCarl (07-06-2017)

    16. Top | #50
      ttmonster is offline
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      Yes , we depend on Quintal transfer
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I think 100+kg of weight transfer helps.


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    18. Top | #51
      ttmonster is offline
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      And Carl hasn't even seen us play doubles together ... 100 kg + weight tansfer times 2 in alternate succession ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      That is good for blunt force trama yes, but cmon, how rapidly can one move 110 kg into action without being a bear?

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    20. Top | #52
      UpSideDownCarl is online now
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      Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte View Post
      That is good for blunt force trama yes, but cmon, how rapidly can one move 110 kg into action without being a bear?
      I have seen that 100+kg grizzly bear move already. So you can't pretend that you don't get that mass moving fast when there is a TT ball to be pummeled.

      But I would love to see Der+Monster doubles. That would be something to behold.


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      Der_Echte (07-07-2017)

    22. Top | #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      And Carl hasn't even seen us play doubles together ... 100 kg + weight tansfer times 2 in alternate succession ...
      Carl outta see it when one or both of us bumps into the table or opponent...

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    24. Top | #54
      ttmonster is offline
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      Beware Carl ! Its a competition in grumpiness when either of us miss ...
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I have seen that 100+kg grizzly bear move already. So you can't pretend that you don't get that mass moving fast when there is a TT ball to be pummeled.

      But I would love to see Der+Monster doubles. That would be something to behold.


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    26. Top | #55
      Dominikk85 is offline
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      A smash will finish more across the body than a loop, right?

    27. Top | #56
      ttmonster is offline
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      For me it still finishes on top of my forehead with more horizontal rotation of the body , just the contact is different ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85 View Post
      A smash will finish more across the body than a loop, right?

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      Der_Echte (07-07-2017)

    29. Top | #57
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      TTM, you got a LONG way to go to reach my level of grumpiness.

      That last time at Swan where you were rightfully pissed off enough to rip off the head and defecate down the neck of all those rude people walking so carelessly through the court while rally is in play offending good sense and etiquette... I get that way if a ball rolled by my feet the second time in 5 minutes.

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    31. Top | #58
      Dominikk85 is offline
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      I found this video by Christian Süß demonstrating that tennis like windshield wiper finish.


      He even calls it windshield wiper in German (tennis players also call the technique like that- before the 1990s tennis players also hit topspin low to high and the windshield wiper came with the lighter plastic rackets about it the mid to late 90s) so it seems to be something he has learned.

      Probably more a specialty stroke rather than a standard technique though.

    32. Top | #59
      Ilia Minkin is offline
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      This shot is also known as "Fade" and a standard technique for high level players.


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    34. Top | #60
      Archosaurus is offline
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      I'm sure you can see, but that's a sidespin stroke. Not exactly a standard topspin shot.

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