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    1. Top | #21
      NextLevel is offline
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      This is going to be interesting. Let me know how it goes.

      I think the Viscaria is likely to be a mistake as Koto is a hard outer ply to feel unless you have good contact depth and Hinoki is 95% about the feeling. She definitely won't feel more spin with a Viscaria even if she gets it.

      The Viscaria or any Koto ALC isn't that different from the Garaydia ZLC in how you can use it, though the thickness bases a difference in flex in favor of Viscaria away from the table and the Koto vs Hinoki makes a difference in feeling on the softer shots in favor of the Garaydia.

      In any case, these are only blades. If the goal is more spin, there is nothing wrong with having her play with something completely different like a Clipper or a Korbel for a short period of time to understand what she might be missing because ultimately, spin is about how you approach the ball not your blade, the problem is that powerful spin needs you to turn the ball with more precision when you use a faster blade. HL5 and Freitas are okay as well as there is at least some distance from the Garaydia and the ALC is different. But in general, I am not a fan if switching from one fast blade to another when trying to change your game.
      Last edited by NextLevel; 07-15-2017 at 12:49 PM.
      Cobra Kai TT Exponent - No mercy in this dojo, no matter your rating or the score. All spin, no power or footwork.

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    3. Top | #22
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      Thanks NextLevel , I have been trying to convince her to use a slower blade and stay closer to the table ... I will pass on your comments .. what I have noticed with her technique is that when she is away from the table and the ball falls down she can spin it up ... but when she is close to the table the forearm whip and grabbing the ball is missing from her arsenal ... she ends up with less spin ...
      Last edited by ttmonster; 07-15-2017 at 02:24 PM.
      Lets go Spinny Looping !

    4. Top | #23
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      Both are carbon blades but Michael Maze and Viscaria are at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of the woods used for their construction , Viscaria has less flex , MM has more flex ... now I haven't played with MM but I have a Long V which uses the same woods .... if I was to put my money on it I would say Viscaria would have a significantly larger Sweet spot than MM but butterfly has tried to offset it a little bit with 7-plys, with Long V I can feel more vibration compared to my ZJK which is similar to Viscaria just a little more flexy .... hence I sent out a message to get feedback from players would have actually played with these blades
      Quote Originally Posted by ade14212 View Post
      Excuse me, but the large sweet spot problem is always the case with carbon blade, no? I mean, MM is similar in build to Viscaria. The only difference with HL5 is the carbon placement, IIRC.
      If the sweet spot is your worry then why don't you give her ITC Dynarc 5 or 7? The blades are awesome, cheap and all wood. Smaller sweet spot than carbon blades
      Last edited by ttmonster; 07-15-2017 at 02:39 PM.

    5. Top | #24
      NextLevel is offline
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      I used to believe that carbon blades have larger sweetspots but it is not true. What really happens is that stiffer blades do not vibrate as much when you miss the sweetspot and there is a consistently higher rebound in most carbon blades. That said, if you don't learn to hit the true sweets pot of a blade, your quality of shot will decline.

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    7. Top | #25
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      Butterfly Michael Maze ALC vs Hurricane Long V

      I like NL's suggestion of a Korbel. And I think the posts NL has made are the most important ones so far. But in the end, we are all just shooting in the dark.

      If she keeps playing with the blade she has and is having fun, she will keep improving. If the idea of learning to spin the ball better is implanted in her head, over time she will learn to make better contact for spinning the ball.

      If she knows how to spin the ball up when the ball is dropping but does not know how to spin the ball forward from the top of the bounce or the rise, learning the technique will just take, some drilling, some time for her brain to wrap around spin contact and how it feels, and some disciplined effort in the right direction.

      The equipment is less important in this instance than it seems we are crediting it with being.

      With her current setup, if she worked with a coach specifically on spinning the ball, it would happen faster. At our level too much back seat coaching could do more harm than good.

      But if she was hitting with my man Paul David, every time she made flat contact, he would stop, grab the ball, give the evil eye and say: "did you hear that? Was that spin contact? Spin the ball! Don't slap it."

      And having the harsh sound of direct contact pointed out over and over would get her spinning the ball better and better.

      I played around with that self hitting stuff for a while to really get the feel of spin contact. If I had had one of those spinning wheels, it would have done the trick too.

      But the information may be better coming from a coach, in person, where the coaches level is high enough to see exactly what the actual issues are.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-15-2017 at 06:48 PM.
      Spin Everything.

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    9. Top | #26
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      Butterfly Michael Maze ALC vs Hurricane Long V

      I should really make a video of me doing the slow super brushy version of these self hits. This is really a different exercise than I am actually talking about.



      The self hit and the spinning wheel have different benefits in helping someone make brush contact. With the wheel, if you don't brush you KNOW for sure. And if your stubborn about not brushing, you can break your racket.

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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-15-2017 at 07:05 PM.

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    11. Top | #27
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      Thank you Sirs !! Will pass the info. along if she is already not watching this thread ...

    12. Top | #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      This is going to be interesting. Let me know how it goes.

      I think the Viscaria is likely to be a mistake as Koto is a hard outer ply to feel unless you have good contact depth and Hinoki is 95% about the feeling. She definitely won't feel more spin with a Viscaria even if she gets it.

      The Viscaria or any Koto ALC isn't that different from the Garaydia ZLC in how you can use it, though the thickness bases a difference in flex in favor of Viscaria away from the table and the Koto vs Hinoki makes a difference in feeling on the softer shots in favor of the Garaydia.

      In any case, these are only blades. If the goal is more spin, there is nothing wrong with having her play with something completely different like a Clipper or a Korbel for a short period of time to understand what she might be missing because ultimately, spin is about how you approach the ball not your blade, the problem is that powerful spin needs you to turn the ball with more precision when you use a faster blade. HL5 and Freitas are okay as well as there is at least some distance from the Garaydia and the ALC is different. But in general, I am not a fan if switching from one fast blade to another when trying to change your game.
      I tend to disagree with NL on some of his points, but again as a coach and player I might be shooting in the dark here. I do agree that the Viscaria is as fast as the Garaydia ZLC.

      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I like NL's suggestion of a Korbel. And I think the posts NL has made are the most important ones so far. But in the end, we are all just shooting in the dark.

      If she keeps playing with the blade she has and is having fun, she will keep improving. If the idea of learning to spin the ball better is implanted in her head, over time she will learn to make better contact for spinning the ball.

      If she knows how to spin the ball up when the ball is dropping but does not know how to spin the ball forward from the top of the bounce or the rise, learning the technique will just take, some drilling, some time for her brain to wrap around spin contact and how it feels, and some disciplined effort in the right direction.

      The equipment is less important in this instance than it seems we are crediting it with being.

      With her current setup, if she worked with a coach specifically on spinning the ball, it would happen faster. At our level too much back seat coaching could do more harm than good.

      But if she was hitting with my man Paul David, every time she made flat contact, he would stop, grab the ball, give the evil eye and say: "did you hear that? Was that spin contact? Spin the ball! Don't slap it."

      And having the harsh sound of direct contact pointed out over and over would get her spinning the ball better and better.

      I played around with that self hitting stuff for a while to really get the feel of spin contact. If I had had one of those spinning wheels, it would have done the trick too.

      But the information may be better coming from a coach, in person, where the coaches level is high enough to see exactly what the actual issues are.


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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      Thank you Sirs !! Will pass the info. along if she is already not watching this thread ...
      If the issue is lack of technique when looping with her FH, I would also recommend a slower blade than the GZLC or the VIS. But from feedback TTM it didn't sound like her technique was bad. She wanted a carbon blade so she could have enough power from the distance. Best thing is let her try setup in both end of the scale and again I still like to see her try your ZJK with her rubbers on as that was the blade she liked the most.
      Spare setup: Blade: Custom DHS W968 93.5g, FH: Hurricane 3 National BS (Black), BH: Tenergy 64 (Red)

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    14. Top | #29
      ttmonster is offline
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      there are some challenges on the whole coaching thing ... will elaborate when we get a chance to talk ... .... otherwise I don't like to do so much back seat driving .... unless somebody really asks for it .. I will try to get some videos next time we play and see if you guys can help with some pointers ...

    15. Top | #30
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      Her technique is not at all bad , in fact she was coached when she was a kid , but I feel her current choice of coach is not the wisest one and is hindering her development , . I felt there some nuances missing and if she gets those her level will shoot up way beyond mine ..... next time you come down to SF , will try to setup a meeting if you are inclined ...
      Quote Originally Posted by Giangt View Post
      I tend to disagree with NL on some of his points, but again as a coach and player I might be shooting in the dark here. I do agree that the Viscaria is as fast as the Garaydia ZLC.





      If the issue is lack of technique when looping with her FH, I would also recommend a slower blade than the GZLC or the VIS. But from feedback TTM it didn't sound like her technique was bad. She wanted a carbon blade so she could have enough power from the distance. Best thing is let her try setup in both end of the scale and again I still like to see her try your ZJK with her rubbers on as that was the blade she liked the most.
      Last edited by ttmonster; 07-15-2017 at 08:02 PM.

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    17. Top | #31
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      Butterfly Michael Maze ALC vs Hurricane Long V

      I am not sure but I think her technique can still be good and she can be making contact that is slightly too deep for more spin. More drive, less loop, at least when she is taking the ball at the top of the bounce.

      And from what you said, she does spin more when she is taking the ball while it is dropping (from farther back) and she needs to swing up more. Am I understanding that part correctly?


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    19. Top | #32
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      Butterfly Michael Maze ALC vs Hurricane Long V

      One thing I will say, a player who uses Koto and has the touch with Koto, has the touch with Koto.

      A player who uses Cypress/Hinoki as a top ply and has the touch with it and is used to it could have a HARD time adjusting from Hinoki to Koto. They are very different.

      The same player may have a hard time adjusting to Limba also. But it is likely that it will be easier to adjust to Limba from a Hinoki top ply than to Koto.

      It still won't be easy. Hinoki is more springy than either Limba or Koto. But at least the softness is more comparable between Limba and Hinoki.

      Most Koto top plies are decently harder most Limba top plies. And most Limba top plies are closer in hardness to the Hinoki top plies. But Limba is slower because it is so much less springy. And, for me, Hinoki really grabs the ball harder than anything else I can think of. It is really an interesting wood.


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      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-15-2017 at 10:31 PM.

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    21. Top | #33
      NextLevel is offline
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      The thing is this - I understand what ttmonster is trying to do and there is no guarantee it will work, though it can. As a coach and a player, these are experiments that I consistently do and find helpful because they open my eyes to aspects of my game that I usually like to ignore and I can learn some things forced to play a different way either in footwork or technique that transfer to my original game.

      The Garaydia is significantly stiffer than the ZJK or Viscaria but the Garaydia has that hinoki. ZJK and Viscaria are less stiff blades but the outer feels harder even though the ALC ply feels better especially away from the table.

      I have a friend in my club who switched from a TBS to an Amultart. (Similar to going from a TB ALC to a Garaydia ZLC). He prefers the Amultart because he can feel the spin on his slower shots. Of course, he uses Tenergy 05 on both sides and he has never been able to make sense of my OFF- blades with non-bouncy rubbers, even my KJH with R47 in 2.0mm on both sides perplexes him. But he has some of the most amazing ball feeling I have ever seen in a player and amazing athleticism so it is only a matter of when he comes better than I am not whether he does.

      My point is that too often, we switch between blades that are very similar. What I ended up realizing after I started testing blade frequencies was that speed or no speed (though it is quite likely that speed is involved), I prefer to play with blades with a frequency below 1400Hz. I could probably do decently with up to 1400Hz. When the blades started getting to 1450+, which is where most of the Koto ALC and ZLCs sit, I started struggling. So thinner and flexier blades seem to be blades I like. It was funny but recently, I complained about not liking a Vega Pro compared to another one I had. The one I liked was below 1300Hz and the one I disliked was almost 1400Hz - could play decently with the second but just didn't like how it felt compared to the first.

      Now Garaydia ZLC is much higher in stiffness than I thought it was. Looking at the chart linked here, there is a significant difference.

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Lfg/edit#gid=0

      So moving her to a TBS or Viscaria etc. might make a huge difference. But Carl made the other point I was trying to make - the outer ply of Koto does different things to different people. I am currently trying to deal with the White Ash outer ply of the KJH and I am making progress, and because the KJH has my favorite handle in the universe, I am persevering. But I am never fully sure it is the best thing for a limba lover like myself. But if she can handle it, great.

      My point is that the blades below 1400 in frequency like the ones I use, or even below 1300 like a Korbel, will frustrate her a little, but will open her eyes to other possibilities. But I think based on looking at the list again, that the Garaydia ZLC was stiffer than I thought it was and that moving her to any of the Koto ALC blades is worth a shot, noting the issue that Carl and I made. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with curing people of speed addiction.

      Lifting the ball is a technical issue, but it can definitely be made worse by using a blade that is too fast to get arc at the table. I will measure my Garaydia ZLC again when I get home because I think the frequency numbers on that list are way too high compared to what I remember. Higher than a T5000 is just wrong, and I provided the T5000 number.

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    23. Top | #34
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      Yes you are correct Carl , she can actually whips it more with forearm when its dropping and she thinks she is slightly late to the ball , but the same whip albeit in a smaller motion is missing when its closer to the table
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      I am not sure but I think her technique can still be good and she can be making contact that is slightly too deep for more spin. More drive, less loop, at least when she is taking the ball at the top of the bounce.

      And from what you said, she does spin more when she is taking the ball while it is dropping (from farther back) and she needs to swing up more. Am I understanding that part correctly?


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    24. Top | #35
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      Thank you guys , time and again , this thread has really been very helpful ... I am sure now most of the information is out here and I asked her to go through this thread in detail and then make her pick ... and yes Next level , the speed addiction is what I am trying to avoid with Viscaria ... btw, I have seen Giangt play and he has awesome touch on his forehand .... Der_echte can testify ..

    25. Top | #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      The thing is this - I understand what ttmonster is trying to do and there is no guarantee it will work, though it can. As a coach and a player, these are experiments that I consistently do and find helpful because they open my eyes to aspects of my game that I usually like to ignore and I can learn some things forced to play a different way either in footwork or technique that transfer to my original game.

      The Garaydia is significantly stiffer than the ZJK or Viscaria but the Garaydia has that hinoki. ZJK and Viscaria are less stiff blades but the outer feels harder even though the ALC ply feels better especially away from the table.

      I have a friend in my club who switched from a TBS to an Amultart. (Similar to going from a TB ALC to a Garaydia ZLC). He prefers the Amultart because he can feel the spin on his slower shots. Of course, he uses Tenergy 05 on both sides and he has never been able to make sense of my OFF- blades with non-bouncy rubbers, even my KJH with R47 in 2.0mm on both sides perplexes him. But he has some of the most amazing ball feeling I have ever seen in a player and amazing athleticism so it is only a matter of when he comes better than I am not whether he does.

      My point is that too often, we switch between blades that are very similar. What I ended up realizing after I started testing blade frequencies was that speed or no speed (though it is quite likely that speed is involved), I prefer to play with blades with a frequency below 1400Hz. I could probably do decently with up to 1400Hz. When the blades started getting to 1450+, which is where most of the Koto ALC and ZLCs sit, I started struggling. So thinner and flexier blades seem to be blades I like. It was funny but recently, I complained about not liking a Vega Pro compared to another one I had. The one I liked was below 1300Hz and the one I disliked was almost 1400Hz - could play decently with the second but just didn't like how it felt compared to the first.

      Now Garaydia ZLC is much higher in stiffness than I thought it was. Looking at the chart linked here, there is a significant difference.

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Lfg/edit#gid=0

      So moving her to a TBS or Viscaria etc. might make a huge difference. But Carl made the other point I was trying to make - the outer ply of Koto does different things to different people. I am currently trying to deal with the White Ash outer ply of the KJH and I am making progress, and because the KJH has my favorite handle in the universe, I am persevering. But I am never fully sure it is the best thing for a limba lover like myself. But if she can handle it, great.

      My point is that the blades below 1400 in frequency like the ones I use, or even below 1300 like a Korbel, will frustrate her a little, but will open her eyes to other possibilities. But I think based on looking at the list again, that the Garaydia ZLC was stiffer than I thought it was and that moving her to any of the Koto ALC blades is worth a shot, noting the issue that Carl and I made. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with curing people of speed addiction.

      Lifting the ball is a technical issue, but it can definitely be made worse by using a blade that is too fast to get arc at the table. I will measure my Garaydia ZLC again when I get home because I think the frequency numbers on that list are way too high compared to what I remember. Higher than a T5000 is just wrong, and I provided the T5000 number.
      The nuances explained and hinted at in this post are, I am quite sure, why NextLevel said:

      Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel View Post
      This is going to be interesting. Let me know how it goes.
      In his first post to the thread.

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    27. Top | #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      ...and yes Next level , the speed addiction is what I am trying to avoid with Viscaria ...
      Viscaria could be categorized in that class of blade where speed addiction might begin. For getting someone to get over their addiction to speed, you may want to have them play with a Stiga Allround Classic for a month or two. Then they could safely move up to a Korbel or an SPW and feel the blade is more than fast enough.

      But anything faster than a Korbel could be categorized in the addiction to speed category. Okay, Viscaria is not so fast that you cannot learn with it. But it is faster than what would be ideal for someone who really wants to switch from driving the ball as their go to habit to really spinning the cover off the ball.

      Alright, Stiga Allround Classic might be torture for someone with the addiction to speed and a blade as fast as a Garaydia ZLC. But a Stiga Allround Evolution would actually be a good choice as a blade to force her to use for 2 months before switching up to a Korbel.

      One of the actual issues may be that, with a blade that fast, where you are encouraged to drive because you have to do so little work and the blade does so much of the work for you, you are not encouraged to spin the ball even if you really can. Whereas, if the ball is dropping, you do have to spin up and arc the ball to get it on the table: you cannot hit from below net height and get the ball on the table without arcing it. Whereas, close to the table, you can drive forward with little spin and still get a lot of pace on a flat ball that, despite the lack of spin, still lands on the table.

      So, if you are trying to get her to get over her addiction to speed, a much slower blade for long enough for her to get used to it before she moves up to a slightly faster Off- blade might be necessary.
      Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 07-16-2017 at 09:31 AM.

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      ttmonster (07-16-2017)

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      As I am thinking about this, some of this does sound very much like a lot of what categorizes the woman's TT game where they stay close to the table and bang the ball back and forth with the rallies having a ton of pace and quick back and forth action, but so many of those shots do not have a ton of spin.

      Is that in the ballpark?

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      ttmonster (07-16-2017)

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      The thing is , she does not want to play that game , she wants to play a looping game . She prefers to loop than drive on the backhand so I figure she cannot do that and not have a powerful loop on the forehand side , otherwise she loses advantage on the forehand side ..
      Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl View Post
      As I am thinking about this, some of this does sound very much like a lot of what categorizes the woman's TT game where they stay close to the table and bang the ball back and forth with the rallies having a ton of pace and quick back and forth action, but so many of those shots do not have a ton of spin.

      Is that in the ballpark?

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      NextLevel (07-16-2017)

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      Quote Originally Posted by ttmonster View Post
      The thing is , she does not want to play that game , she wants to play a looping game . She prefers to loop than drive on the backhand so I figure she cannot do that and not have a powerful loop on the forehand side , otherwise she loses advantage on the forehand side ..
      The thing is that too many people learn to topspin without learning to block. It is possible but difficult to develop a close to the table topspin without a proper understanding of a close to the table block. She doesn't know how to play a forward topspin and she probably thinks it is a good thing because her game looks more like the men's game but the problem is that she can't play close to the table.

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      doraemon (07-17-2017),matzreenzi (07-16-2017),ttmonster (07-17-2017)

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