BH flip vs short serves. Going with the spin or against. Does it matter to you?

suds79 · Jul 21, 2017

When you guys perform your backhand over the table flip vs short pure side-spin serves, do you care or take into account if you are going with or against the grain of the spin? Does it matter to you?

Do you care? Do you perform the same stroke regardless? What are your thoughts on this?

Picture this.
You're right handed (as i'm sure most of you are... I'm left but lets forget that for a second)

Your'e facing a right handed opponent. He serves a pure sidespin standard pendulum serve short to you. You begin to BH over the table flip to return it.

If you were looking at the table from a top/down view, the ball would look like this as it's spinning clockwise. Because you're right handed, you flip the ball which with the way your backhand swings, goes with the spin of the ball. Therefore, fundamentally, the ball reacts to your rubber less. You flip it. Your contact point would be somewhere along the red line in this diagram. End of Story.

But for me being left handed, my contact point is the blue line in this diagram and I'm hitting against the grain. So in my head I'm thinking that the spin of their serve reacts more to my rubber. Would you agree with this? Does it even matter to you?

It would be like you're doing your BH flip for the right hander's reverse pendulum serve (counter clockwise) instead of him giving you regular pendulum. That's essentially what I face most of the time at least from a prospective in hitting against a certain type of spin.

How do you like to handle this? Does it matter to you? Should I look to FH flip these more often being a lefty?

Thanks for any thoughts.

songdavid98 · Jul 21, 2017

It depends on which sidespin.

If it goes with the natural backhand sidespin, I'll go with it.

If it's the other sidespin, I'll override it with topspin.

EDIT: I am left-handed as well. I do not contact the ball where the blue line is. Instead, against a short sidespin serve from a right handed person, I will hit the ball a little bit right of the red line, and still do a normal flip. Side spin in the flip is optional. The reason for contacting the ball at that location is to still be able to flip anywhere on to the table.

EDIT 2: The backhand flip is a stronger choice, but definitely look in to the forehand flip as well. Becoming a more well rounded player should be in your interest.

suds79 · Jul 21, 2017

songdavid98 said:
If it's the other sidespin, I'll override it with topspin.

I think i get it. You kinda negate the sidespin aspect by somewhat bullying the ball over the top with a high quality topspin stroke if I'm following correctly.

songdavid98 · Jul 21, 2017

suds79 said:
I think i get it. You kinda negate the sidespin aspect by somewhat bullying the ball over the top with a high quality topspin stroke if I'm following correctly.

Exactly. It's the same concept as doing it on the forehand. As a lefty, it's like forehand looping a lefty's pendulum serve.

Murre5 · Jul 21, 2017

Honestly don't really feel like it's an issue for me with the actual contact point on sidespin only or how it reacts to the rubber. One thing that matters way more to me is how the ball travels because of the spin.

If you get a pendulum sidespin the ball will just go further in to the backhand because of the spin, so it's much easier to adjust. If it goes towards your forehand side (reverse pendulum) and you miss the actual amount of sidespin then you need to make a way more awkward movement.

yuri.saldon · Jul 21, 2017

I think it's an angle problem.

The way you describe seems easier to receive with a fh flip, but if you prefer a bh flip you have to angle like a fh flip.

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Dominikk85 · Jul 21, 2017

Can the banana flick somewhat replace reading spins? Of course ideally you read the spin but doesn't a heavy spin aggressive flick make it easier to override the spin and still put it on the table?

songdavid98 · Jul 21, 2017

Dominikk85 said:
Can the banana flick somewhat replace reading spins? Of course ideally you read the spin but doesn't a heavy spin aggressive flick make it easier to override the spin and still put it on the table?

Of course not.

You have to be very precise when you are performing shots over the table, which requires that you read the serve.

Think about it this way, does forehand looping the serve replace reading spins?

yuri.saldon · Jul 22, 2017

Dominikk85 said:
Can the banana flick somewhat replace reading spins? Of course ideally you read the spin but doesn't a heavy spin aggressive flick make it easier to override the spin and still put it on the table?

Of course not!

Actually banana flick need more accuracy

LordPippington · Jul 22, 2017

Dominikk85 said:
Can the banana flick somewhat replace reading spins? Of course ideally you read the spin but doesn't a heavy spin aggressive flick make it easier to override the spin and still put it on the table?

I think it does to a degree. But you still need to be able to read the serve, at least somewhat. Top spin / back spin / no spin variations.

Against top spin you go more over the ball and against back spin you go more under the ball, naturally. So if you can 'guess' if it's top or back, then you can usually banana it back on the table. Shot quality might not be the greatest, but it will land.

Facing players who don't use a ton of spin (read: lower ranked), you can essentially power through anything they throw at you.

yoass · Jul 22, 2017

I think the banana flick doesn't per se override or neutralize the incoming spin, but contact is more often than not pretty much perpendicular to it. To while there may be spin, that will hardly affect your stroke. You will add your own and inherit the existing spin, slightly worn off over time, after two table contacts and the little bit of perpendicular friction your rubber will have imposed during contact.

HotPotTofu · Jul 22, 2017

I think that if a right hander is serving a standard pendulum short sidespin to u, another right hander should not contact it at the red side as that would mean flipping it back to where the server was standing as the ball's spin would already bring it back to the servers position. Instead a right hander's return should be at the blue line by stepping into the table with his right leg. This way you counter the direction of the ball and it is much safer this way.

Thus, since you are a left hander you already have sort of a advantage that your natural backhand flick angle is already this way.

That being said if you counter the balls spin on contact hard enough or if the server did not put much spin on the ball, countering the direction is not very important. But in a real match the safer option would definitely be away from the server if he was a serving a standard pendulum and into him if he was serving reverse.

Cheers

al_111 · Jul 22, 2017

HotPotTofu said:
It is much safer this way

+1
I'd put it even more simple: when looping is it easier to counter spin (counterloop) or continue one (loop vs underspin)? For me, obviously the latter requires much more effort. The same goes for flicking, so I never try to continue heavy sidespin - I'm just not sure my raquet speed on flip will be faster than the server's, instead I counter it. If for some reason countering is not an option, one should better override sidespin with his own topspin, making contact near the axis of rotation (actually, this is also the basic principle for banana flick vs underspin...)

dio_hgw · Jul 23, 2017

Legs-waist-arm-elbow-wrist combination allow us to play every ball in many ways regarding contact point, spin and placement. I would suggest that you/we work on different ways of receiving the ball. BH banana flick (with a faster wrist snap), flat hitting, push, bh side-brush on either side of the ball, fh flick or fh short push...you know kind of Waldner variation!

BH flip vs short serves. Going with the spin or against. Does it matter to you?

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