Is trying to play a defensive/chopper style under 2000 USA basically worthless?

I feel like even though you're a defensive player, you should have your attacking shots for times just like this. Joo Se-Hyuk has a great FH and I know another player who has a mean long-pip slapping BH.

You can win the point early if possible, and chop against more skilled opponents who do loop.

If you are really an aspiring defensive player, how can you be frustrated by pushing rallies? As defender you should embrace and enjoy them!

Where are you located in the US , I would love to see some videos of so called 1900 players in that area ... if what you are saying is accurate and they indeed have 1900 ratings , I think you should sponsor a trip to LV next year for the national , that way their ratings can get standardized .... no one in the 1200-1900 range loops against choppers is a very very wrong statement ... either you are 2400 - 2500 level chopper against whose chops they don't stand a chance ... or they are not 1900 ... don't go by what people verbally say their ratings are , you would be surprised once you look them up on the USATT website ...

LordPippington said:

After bumbling around trying out the defensive styles for awhile, mainly aiming to chop... I have come to the conclusion that rarely anybody in the 1,200-1,900 USA rating range wants to loop the ball!

And that winning by attacking seems much easier and quicker. So for anyone else out there attempting the defensive setup, is it totally worthless at the low levels!? I had fun training the chops and whatnot, but I think at this point it's probably better just to devote that time and energy into learning offense? Unless, I guess, if you want to become a master of push wars.

For example, I can try to push, push, push against other players and they essentially never try to loop the ball in a game. And admittedly, a lot of them are pretty good at the slow pushing styles. Because they never took the time to learn how to attack a push, or do it with confidence. They're content to push-push every point, maybe being baited into attacking a really high one (they usually miss this attack as well, which discourages them from trying even more!). Whereas I can fire off a loop and win the point quite early on. So is there really any sense in mucking about with these dinky shots, when you can blast them off the table after only a few bumps?

A bit of a rant... at this stage I feel like I've "wasted" a lot of training hours on the defensive elements, when I could have advanced a lot more by now if I had stuck with offense.

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If people keep missing their loops, you're just better than them. I would really like to counterloop, but no one in my local area has a loop better than mine, so I can't get too good at it. I know how it is.

Ok, let's say that your opponents won't attack so what now? I can tell you that pushing with occasional attack is a great opportunity for you to learn a thing or two.
What you can try learning (if you can't do it already): with the regular rubber: short almost no-spin push, short heavy spin push, long no-spin push, long heavy spin push, try pushing with only side-spin or with side-top(that's not easy you know). And you should understand one thing - there should be clear difference between these types of shots(the opponent will occasionally push in the net, or push long, etc. etc.) If you can vary the push spin and placement I'm quite sure you'll have a good opportunity for attack and that's when you'll be able to train some combinations .
Another thing - you have pips, right? you can chop with those, or push, or bump, or just throw a no-spin ball against a push. If this no-spin ball is placed well (you won't be killed ) you may be able to force an attacking rally or get an opportunity for your attack.
Variation is key in such situations.
The fact that your opponents are not capable of good attacks is not so bad - you should strengthen your touch play with them and learn after what type of rallies there's often a possibility for your attack. After leveling up in this aspect you'll start playing stronger players where you'll be attacked and that's when you'll play more defense and also that's when you'll understand how good it is to have strong touch play on the table (more slow(unsure) attacks, more errors from the attacker).
Yep - it's not easy being an amateur without a coach because you won't always have strong opponents(I beat all the guys i my club so I know this problem well), and that's when only your head will help you. Think what you can develop in such environment, may be experiment more with some shots, adapt.

LordPippington said:

For example, I can try to push, push, push against other players and they essentially never try to loop the ball in a game. And admittedly, a lot of them are pretty good at the slow pushing styles. Because they never took the time to learn how to attack a push, or do it with confidence. They're content to push-push every point, maybe being baited into attacking a really high one (they usually miss this attack as well, which discourages them from trying even more!). Whereas I can fire off a loop and win the point quite early on. So is there really any sense in mucking about with these dinky shots, when you can blast them off the table after only a few bumps?

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I get what you’re saying.

You’re not going to learn a huge amount by playing endless defence against a low level defensive player. It’s not a great tactic, as you’ll end up playing down to their level. It will be dull and not very satisfying.

Against these low level defenders, you should be practising switching between defence and attack. So you play a good defensive shot. Your opponent give a weak (or predictable) return – now it’s your opportunity to attack. This will help develop your attacking game, which will also be useful when playing higher level players.

The best defenders I play against are also comfortable attacking. If they play against players who become too passive, they will just start attacking more.

JSH himself first was taught how to attack and play like an offensive player and then developed his defensive game. My coach who used to be ranked in top 30 in England was a defender and he always says if the opportunity arises it doesn't matter if you are an attacker or defender you need to finish the point.
I believe this also has a mental advantage on the opponent as if you just defend they may think that they can control the point which alot of the better players do, however if you start looping it should throw them out of their comfort zone to playing defenders as they have to not only keep an eye out for your pimples but then not play passive as you will attack them this usually results in errors


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I strongly dispute USATT 1800-1900 not looping. Some of that crowd doesn't have consistent or strong loops, but some do.

Our Nexy USA CEO was a 1900 level defensive LP chopper when I met him in my days of me being only a recreational player, he grew to 2300+ USATT rating. It can happen.

Another thing you could explore is double inverted or inverted/SP allround style of play. You still get to play defense, still can chop when you want, and can, even more so, use touch...

I would say for any style to have the ability to suddenly and decisively attack and win the point. That scares/concerns the daylights outta opponents who want to play it safe an wait for their ball.

If you can learn to serve at a level several levels above where you are, you will have the attacking chances. It just takes a lot of progressive approach and practice.

I know a guy that climb to 2000 level by playing as a chopper. Sho Miyazaki. I'll ask him to read and reply to this thread.

I've seen him play and improve over the years.

I wouldn't say that being a chopper is worthless in this range. It's simply that there are other really easy ways to win points at that skill level.

Btw I think most pro choppers only chop with the bh anyway and play a topspin with the FH, so you can play a modern defense style with fh attacks and backhand chops.

I'd recommend learning some twiddle mind-games. I played a bit of LP penhold (which is crazy different from SH LP), but what i found exciting about LP was not chopping attacking loops. This is pretty easy, but it does win tons of points. What I found really exciting was attacking pushes with LP, both FH and BH. I reckon players at your level will not be able to react to you twiddling to FH to attack an underspin push, or simply attacking BH with LP. attacking backspin with LP is a very awkward stroke, but should break you out of this push-push game which is hindering your progress. You'll get worse results at the start, but this can be very rewarding eventually. I'm also with V100, variation is key, especially as a defensive player.

I'm a chopper who's under 2000, but I do not think that a chopper under 1200-1900 is necessary useless, it is a difficult style to master, and it takes a while to master but once it is mastered it is the most satisfying. Just like what songdavid98 said, it is possible to improve and get better, it just takes thinking and adjusting to the opponent.
Yes it is true most of the under 2000 players in the US can't loop consistently so it becomes a push push game, but in my opinion, it does not matter if an defensive player attacks in that situation, because we're all trying to win in this game and in the modern game being able to hit loose easy shots is necessary.
Now being a classic defender or a modern defender depends on the situation or the personality of the player, if a person is calm and patient enough he can be a classical defender, but on the contrary if one isn't that patient the person can be a modern defender. But in my opinion being able to do both is important, at high levels maybe one must be a classical defender in order to win, and in another situation one must be a modern defender to win. Such example is where back in the 2006 China Open, Joo Se Hyuk(Modern Defender) lost against Ma Long while Koji Matsushita(Classic defender) defeated Ma Long in a another round. Therefore both chopping style is necessary to win, or being able to adjust towards the opponent.

I agree with most of what you are saying except the fact that most under 2000 cannot loop consistently .

Broadly there are three reasons why people put pips :
1. Number 1 reason is to win easy victories because there is a lot of unfounded fear of pips out there . The dream wears off once these guys find out that it only works on people who are scared , and it does not work on people who understand and remember spin and have a stable loop
2. People who want to slow down the game because of age or physical limitations
3. People who do so consciously because they have an all round game and want pips to increase the variations. Most of these people can play with inverted on both sides at a level around 2000 . Anyways , a little off the point , 2000 is a marker of people of all round skill where most basic skills and some of the advanced skills are already in place. Playing in bay area I am thinking this is now already 1900 and may be actually 1800 level because more and more developing kids have already pushed down what was 2000 5 years back to around 1900 atleast if not more ...

The point is , I don't think its a good idea to teach a kid or a beginner pips or chopping for that matter , somebody should have all round skill to a decent level and then start exploring the other options ....

smiyazaki said:

I'm a chopper who's under 2000, but I do not think that a chopper under 1200-1900 is necessary useless, it is a difficult style to master, and it takes a while to master but once it is mastered it is the most satisfying. Just like what songdavid98 said, it is possible to improve and get better, it just takes thinking and adjusting to the opponent.
Yes it is true most of the under 2000 players in the US can't loop consistently so it becomes a push push game, but in my opinion, it does not matter if an defensive player attacks in that situation, because we're all trying to win in this game and in the modern game being able to hit loose easy shots is necessary.
Now being a classic defender or a modern defender depends on the situation or the personality of the player, if a person is calm and patient enough he can be a classical defender, but on the contrary if one isn't that patient the person can be a modern defender. But in my opinion being able to do both is important, at high levels maybe one must be a classical defender in order to win, and in another situation one must be a modern defender to win. Such example is where back in the 2006 China Open, Joo Se Hyuk(Modern Defender) lost against Ma Long while Koji Matsushita(Classic defender) defeated Ma Long in a another round. Therefore both chopping style is necessary to win, or being able to adjust towards the opponent.

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For the record, I like to goof off and chop or play defense at the club.

That is very notable for one whose loop was branded as a RAMBO LOOP kinda lust for attacking dude...

ttmonster said:

The point is , I don't think its a good idea to teach a kid or a beginner pips or chopping for that matter , somebody should have all round skill to a decent level and then start exploring the other options ....

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+1
That's exactly what most coaches i know over here are telling too.

ttmonster said:

I agree with most of what you are saying except the fact that most under 2000 cannot loop consistently .

Broadly there are three reasons why people put pips :
1. Number 1 reason is to win easy victories because there is a lot of unfounded fear of pips out there . The dream wears off once these guys find out that it only works on people who are scared , and it does not work on people who understand and remember spin and have a stable loop
2. People who want to slow down the game because of age or physical limitations
3. People who do so consciously because they have an all round game and want pips to increase the variations. Most of these people can play with inverted on both sides at a level around 2000 . Anyways , a little off the point , 2000 is a marker of people of all round skill where most basic skills and some of the advanced skills are already in place. Playing in bay area I am thinking this is now already 1900 and may be actually 1800 level because more and more developing kids have already pushed down what was 2000 5 years back to around 1900 atleast if not more ...

The point is , I don't think its a good idea to teach a kid or a beginner pips or chopping for that matter , somebody should have all round skill to a decent level and then start exploring the other options ....

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Not sure I agree with this particular classification - I don't think I ran into your case #1 - perhaps that's the reason of people 'trying' pips out, but I usually don't see them in the tournaments, since they give up too quickly. And you probably missing an important group (where I belong ) - folks who picked up LP because it supports a play style they are interested in: modern/classical defense. It's a matter of preference, after all.

To the OP: I know what you are talking about - very hard to get into spectacular loop/chop rallies, but it is what it is. In the end you have to decide whether you are enjoying playing with your current equipment. Also - nothing wrong with being able to open against loose balls and win a point by attacking on both wings. This probably would put you into more of a 'modern defender' category, but that's not a bad thing (and some would argue it's a best of two worlds).

For the record, pgpg is STILL waiting for me to come to Boston and fulfill an old promise to play him a match where I am predominantly a FH chopper with double inverted.