Andro Treiber Z vs Butterfly Innerforce ZLC

Which one would you say is the better option for me?


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Hi all:)

I have been using Freitas ALC and personally, I found it not so forgiving. For me, it feels stiff and has no feelings. I tried many ALC blades myself before this one(TB ALC, TBS, Drinkhall Powerspin Carbon, Viscaria and so on). Compared to the other ALC blades I've come across, Freitas ALC felt way stiffer.

Having said that, I'm planning to move to either a ZLC or a ZLF blade for more dwell and softer touch(compared to Freitas ALC. NOT ALL ALC BLADES IN GENERAL) and Andro Treiber Z and Butterfly Innerforce ZLC seemed like best options to my furthest concern.

I would very much appreciate your advice on which of the former and the latter I should go for or if there is any better option, please do let me know about them as well:)

I have a friend who is a top player in the UK and he uses Innerforce ZLC. When I tried it, it felt woody-ish but then the carbon kicked in when i was smacking the balls with it.

In a way, it is kind of vague because I'm used to the soft feel of ALC but in need of that forgiving dwell from ZLC. I wish Butterfly could try binding both fibres together... hehe XD...
 
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Having played with it for a few months, my impressions of the MF ALC were that the outer plies were hard, but the blade still flexed on harder contact. Over all it was very good for looping, not so good for blocking.

Currently, I have about 10 hours with the Treiber Z. Of the blades you mentioned, it feels most like the Viscaria. Having a similar soft feeling, yet stiff (no flex). I've only used Bluestorm Z3 with it, but will be using MXP at club tomorrow. My issue is lack of power on full strokes away from the table, but I am thinking it is due to soft rubber / soft blade syndrome.
 
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Having played with it for a few months, my impressions of the MF ALC were that the outer plies were hard, but the blade still flexed on harder contact. Over all it was very good for looping, not so good for blocking.

Currently, I have about 10 hours with the Treiber Z. Of the blades you mentioned, it feels most like the Viscaria. Having a similar soft feeling, yet stiff (no flex). I've only used Bluestorm Z3 with it, but will be using MXP at club tomorrow. My issue is lack of power on full strokes away from the table, but I am thinking it is due to soft rubber / soft blade syndrome.

I found it hard to block with MF ALC as well. like you said, It's just missing that solid feel for decent blocking. I tried INF ZLC and it felt nice and woody in general and carbon kicked in for some hard contacts. I am kinda spin-orientated so something that have a reasonably soft feel with good dwell would be nice. I mainly focus on serves and bh flicks and drives so something that is most suitable would be what I would ultimately go for.

I like only one thing about MXP. It's not so spin sensitive. Its spin or control however doesn't overpower either Andro rasant grip or tenergy from my very personal experience... Still a great rubber for those who can handle it well...
 
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Have you considered the Butterfly Garaydia ZLC blade?

It has that soft feeling due to the thickness of the Hinoki outer ply, but it is super solid when blocking, driving and smashing. It is definitely a full notch faster than Outer ALC blades like the Viscaria etc but its control/speed ratio is unusually good (unlike some other super thick Hinoki-Carbon blades). I never got so much spin on the ball as I did with that blade. I was playing MX-P with it at the time and the rubber was a bit too fast on it for me, I think if you are still using the Tenergy FX versions in your signature then you will find them the perfect match in terms of overall hardness of the setup. As with all ZLC blades the throw is a bit lower than their ALC cousins on harder hits.

The Treiber Z is virtually the same as the Garaydia and you can get it for a cheaper price, I have seen more people complain about the throw on it though (low) compared to the Garaydia and I wonder if that might be due to the thicker Hinoki outer ply on the Garaydia.

Both these blades are bouncy in nature and I found they suited a very compact stroke, I gave the Garaydia ZLC to my chinese friend who plays with a straight arm long powerful stroke and it didn't work for him at all - too many balls in the net (as the throw lowers on harder contact) or long.

An alternative which for me has similar characteristics, still uses Zylon and has power, but is a notch slower, softer and more forgiving is the Nittaku S Series S-CZ (http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/nittaku-s-series-s-cz). Review here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78359&title=nittaku-scz-blade.

For me, this blade has a better balance of flexibility and softness for looping but with a solid enough feel on blocks on smashes when the Zylon is engaged on harder hits. It has way more feel and touch than the Garaydia and Treiber and I found it much more easy to control, it is a full notch slower than those blades though. I would imagine that it is closer in speed to the Freitas, which is clearly slower than the thick Hinoki-Zylon Garaydia and Treiber blades. I was able to play with it using a compact stroke with a lot of control and enough power, my chinese friend with his long stroke could really get the power out of it and due to the extra feel and control nearly everything stayed on the table and his power loops were deadly with some acute angles not possible with the bouncier Garaydia and Treiber. In addition, this blade works with harder and softer rubbers as it is very well balanced in terms of hardness and flexibility, so you might get more mileage in terms of trying different rubbers on it.

Hope that helps a bit, please be aware that these are just my subjective opinions.
 
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I had a 3 way review posted on MYTT comparing IF Layer ZLC, Andro Treiber Z and Xiom Vega Pro on TT11 equipment testing scheme thread. You should be able to find it.
 
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I had a three hour session with the Treiber Z using MXP and Omega Pro yesterday. Overall, I think this is the right direction versus using the softer sponged Bluestorm Z3. The feeling was excellent. I got the power I needed away from the table and was able to maintain a gentle touch on softer contact. I may go a tad softer yet with a different rubber on the FH to get a little catapult and dwell time. Some medium rubbers I have stashed away will do the trick.
 
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Have you considered the Butterfly Garaydia ZLC blade?

It has that soft feeling due to the thickness of the Hinoki outer ply, but it is super solid when blocking, driving and smashing. It is definitely a full notch faster than Outer ALC blades like the Viscaria etc but its control/speed ratio is unusually good (unlike some other super thick Hinoki-Carbon blades). I never got so much spin on the ball as I did with that blade. I was playing MX-P with it at the time and the rubber was a bit too fast on it for me, I think if you are still using the Tenergy FX versions in your signature then you will find them the perfect match in terms of overall hardness of the setup. As with all ZLC blades the throw is a bit lower than their ALC cousins on harder hits.

The Treiber Z is virtually the same as the Garaydia and you can get it for a cheaper price, I have seen more people complain about the throw on it though (low) compared to the Garaydia and I wonder if that might be due to the thicker Hinoki outer ply on the Garaydia.

Both these blades are bouncy in nature and I found they suited a very compact stroke, I gave the Garaydia ZLC to my chinese friend who plays with a straight arm long powerful stroke and it didn't work for him at all - too many balls in the net (as the throw lowers on harder contact) or long.

An alternative which for me has similar characteristics, still uses Zylon and has power, but is a notch slower, softer and more forgiving is the Nittaku S Series S-CZ (http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/nittaku-s-series-s-cz). Review here: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78359&title=nittaku-scz-blade.

For me, this blade has a better balance of flexibility and softness for looping but with a solid enough feel on blocks on smashes when the Zylon is engaged on harder hits. It has way more feel and touch than the Garaydia and Treiber and I found it much more easy to control, it is a full notch slower than those blades though. I would imagine that it is closer in speed to the Freitas, which is clearly slower than the thick Hinoki-Zylon Garaydia and Treiber blades. I was able to play with it using a compact stroke with a lot of control and enough power, my chinese friend with his long stroke could really get the power out of it and due to the extra feel and control nearly everything stayed on the table and his power loops were deadly with some acute angles not possible with the bouncier Garaydia and Treiber. In addition, this blade works with harder and softer rubbers as it is very well balanced in terms of hardness and flexibility, so you might get more mileage in terms of trying different rubbers on it.

Hope that helps a bit, please be aware that these are just my subjective opinions.

oh wow! thanks for the datailed explanation! so GRDA ZLC gives more feeling on the shots. ummm have you tried innerforce zlc at all? my friend whos a top player suggested me it but still struggling to choose one to get... in accord to his words, INF ZLC has more feeling than GRDA ZLC..
 
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I had a 3 way review posted on MYTT comparing IF Layer ZLC, Andro Treiber Z and Xiom Vega Pro on TT11 equipment testing scheme thread. You should be able to find it.

ah great! thanks
 
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One detail.

You seem to be of the impression that Zylon is softer than Arylate. It is not. Arylate is softer. Zylon is faster.

So if you had the same wood plies and one blade was ALC and the other blade was ZLC--like TB ALC and TB ZLC--the ALC would be a little softer and a little slower, the ZLC would be a little faster and a little harder. Very slight.

Another detail to know about Zylon if this makes any difference to you: They used to use Zylon in bulletproof vests--Zylon, Arylate and Kevlar are related substances--and stopped doing it because the molecular structure of the Zylon breaks down and degrades over time and in the course of about 4 years (if my memory is correct), the vests were no longer bulletproof; The vests no longer passed inspection. 4 years seems a short shelf life to me.

That may not be a problem with playing characteristics. But the material degrades.

I don't think this happens to that extent for Arylate.

That being said, it you are looking for softer Innerforce ALC or ZLC are both awesome. Ma Long 5 may fit the bill too.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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One detail.

You seem to be of the impression that Zylon is softer than Arylate. It is not. Arylate is softer. Zylon is faster.

So if you had the same wood plies and one blade was ALC and the other blade was ZLC--like TB ALC and TB ZLC--the ALC would be a little softer and a little slower, the ZLC would be a little faster and a little harder. Very slight.

Another detail to know about Zylon if this makes any difference to you: They used to use Zylon in bulletproof vests--Zylon, Arylate and Kevlar are related substances--and stopped doing it because the molecular structure of the Zylon breaks down and degrades over time and in the course of about 4 years (if my memory is correct), the vests were no longer bulletproof; The vests no longer passed inspection. 4 years seems a short shelf life to me.

That may not be a problem with playing characteristics. But the material degrades.

I don't think this happens to that extent for Arylate.

That being said, it you are looking for softer Innerforce ALC or ZLC are both awesome. Ma Long 5 may fit the bill too.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Thanks for reaching out to me. I indeed do agree that arylate is softer than zylon. To my furthest concern, zylon provides more dwell compared to arylate... please do correct me if I'm wrong here...

Most people whos tried MF ALC would agree that it is 'stiff' without any feeling and not solid enough to block incoming topspin balls. Plus, it did not have that soft feeling arylate is renouned for which certainly is not the case of MF ALC...

I am under impression that zylon would be able to provide better control for my bh flicks and improve the quality of my serves due to the extended dwell. (the ply structure also matters in this case)

I tried many arylate blades like PD powerspin carbon, viscaria, zjk alc, inf alc.s, maze black tag and so on... MF ALC certainly does not have that nice soft feeling as most of us would expect from arylate blades.

my friend whos a top player offered me inf zlc for the woody feel and the kick of zlc when smacking the balls.

i havent tried any zlc blades before... apart from inf zlc...

If you would kindly recommend me a blade that could suit my needs, it would be greately appreciated👍
 
Zylon is harder in matter of plastic deformation, it has much higher tensile GPa.
But in matter of elastic deformation Zylon is more flexible. Maybe this is the reason ZLCs to feel softer, with more dwell and the "kick" you mentioned is due to elastic rebound.
 
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I don't know, to me Viscaria and TB ALC feels like they have more dwell time than TB ZLC. And they also feel softer.

I have a TB ZLF. I have compared it to a TB Spark which they stopped making. The Spark is older and has a very different handle. But the construction was pretty similar except that the Spark is Arylate and no carbon and the ZLF is Zylon with no carbon.

The Spark feels softer and has more dwell time and to me it feels like it has more dwell time.

But if you compare the Freitas blade to a blade that is completely different then you are not comparing ALC to ZLC you are just comparing completely different blades.

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Yes, you are right. Comparing blades with different structures is not appropriate. Comparing individual material characteristics may be not very appropriate too. I presume that aside their material characteristis Zylon and Arylate would have very different behaviour depending on the net structure, fiber thickness and density, all this messed with the characteristics of the different carbons they are netted with, all this complicated by the different energy distribution in all directions depending on the type of the wood layers above and beneath and the sinergy with rubbers. So most important is the individual feel of the player.
 
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Yes, you are right. Comparing blades with different structures is not appropriate. Comparing individual material characteristics may be not very appropriate too. I presume that aside their material characteristis Zylon and Arylate would have very different behaviour depending on the net structure, fiber thickness and density, all this messed with the characteristics of the different carbons they are netted with, all this complicated by the different energy distribution in all directions depending on the type of the wood layers above and beneath and the sinergy with rubbers. So most important is the individual feel of the player.

This makes me smile. [emoji2]

But it is accurate. The Super ZLC blades have more Zylon and a different feel than their regular ZLC counterparts. But even the SZLC blades are not quite as soft as the ALC blades you can safely compare them to. Like ZJK SZLC vs ZJK ALC.

But in the end, the idea is to find a blade that really works for the player. And the Innerforce ZLC is a really great blade.

Many people feel the IF ZLF, AL and ALC lack a certain oomph that the IF ZLC still has in spite of how good it is for softer touch shots.

That is a good blade for many people. The IF ALC has more than enough power for me though. So does the ZLF. I can still put the ball past people with a 5 ply All+ blade. So an All+ to Off- blade is all I need and that gives you more spin.


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Just to update, I glued some T05 to the Treiber Z and didn’t like the results. True, compared to the Freitas anyway, my blocks were easier to keep short, pushes were nice, served really well and smashes had just enough power,BUT I couldn’t loop worth a flip. They’d go in the net or go long for the most part. The ones that did land didn’t seem to kick or carry as much spin as with Freitas ALC. That’s after a 30 minute evaluation before returning back to my MF alc for the remainder of the session. I’ll be going back to the mxp m3 combo next time.
 
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