Watching pros makes you better, and we should watch women players

Baal · Aug 8, 2017

This thread is my homage to Zhang Yining, one of my favorite players of all time (and I was reminded of it by a thread at MyTT where people are discussing who they thing the GOAT is among women players). In a discussion like that it is hard to argue against Deng Yaping but my favorite is Zhang Yining. Their records in international competition are not that different.

Against Zhang Yining opponents would hit obvious winners, often deep into the back hand corner, and hard and spinny. Clear winners.

And then....

The ball came back low and right to the body. Surprise! Your opponent today has super-human quickness and the most efficient footwork possible.

And the very next ball Zhang Yining hits in the rally is a winner with her forehand to which ever side was the one that caused the most damage.

Opponents didn't need to be stared down (a Deng Yaping speciality), because they were wondering what they hell they needed to do to win points. You couldn't play faster than she did, not and win consistently. You couldn't spin her off the table. She didn't make errors on return of serve. And if you gave her even the remotest opportunity she was all over it because her footwork was insanely perfect and she was never out of balance and she never overplayed a shot.

Zhang Yining had some of the most perfect modern table tennis technique ever seen in man or woman to this day.

I loved watching her. Each time I learned something about the right way to play. That is true Ma Long and ZJK in his prime, and Waldner and Persson and all the greats, and really pros in general, but somehow studying ZYN improves me more.

Check this out.

Ilia Minkin · Aug 8, 2017

As a spectator, I can appreciate the close to the table bang bang kind of game. It can certainly be effective in men's division too. But I totally hate playing it.

Der_Echte · Aug 8, 2017

Ilia, I'm a BH BANG Banger, but don't tell anyone. Bam-Bam might think I'm watching Pebbles and might try to chase me down.

Der_Echte · Aug 8, 2017

I always thought ZYN was about as untouchable as they come in her era. She quit the sport to go to Uni while she coulda dominated another 5 yrs and top 10 another 15, but you can only be a Uni student once...

TheKevinFang · Aug 8, 2017

Der_Echte said:
I always thought ZYN was about as untouchable as they come in her era. She quit the sport to go to Uni while she coulda dominated another 5 yrs and top 10 another 15, but you can only be a Uni student once...

You can be a uni student at any age but you can only dominate table tennis for so long? I'm confused as to why she went to uni in her prime...

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 8, 2017

TheKevinFang said:
You can be a uni student at any age but you can only dominate table tennis for so long? I'm confused as to why she went to uni in her prime...

She felt she had done everything that could be done in TT and wanted a different life. Kids, family, different country.

ajtatosmano2 · Aug 8, 2017

I think the T2APAC league is very good for women's table tennis.
I rarely spent time watching women's tt. Simply I didn't found too interesting the 'close to the table bang bang kind of game'.
But the T2APAC did two thing:
1. It's a mixed event, if you want a full experience, you can't skip the women's matches.
2. They changed the camera position. I can't stress enough the importance of camera angle in TT. If the camera angle would be turned with 40-50 degree, I think it would be better, but even the current angle makes women's TT much-much more spectator friendly compared to the usual ITTF angle.

And since the T2APAC's start I like to watch women's TT. Good job.

yoass · Aug 8, 2017

Tip o'the hat to you, Ba'al, for I now have something to study that had not yet received my attention sufficiently.

Dominikk85 · Aug 8, 2017

Do the top women on average play a little flatter and less spinny then the top men? I'm no expert but it looks like it to me, especially on the backhand side.

ajtatosmano2 · Aug 8, 2017

Dominikk85 said:
Do the top women on average play a little flatter and less spinny then the top men? I'm no expert but it looks like it to me, especially on the backhand side.

Women can't loop as powerfully as men. By powerful I mean both spinny and fast. Because of that a close to table counterattacking style is more among women than men (we can see that it's very effective among men too, but I think it's more common that a man must go further from the table). To deal with that, women have to use shorter movements for faster recovery.

Dominikk85 · Aug 8, 2017

So because they have less bat speed their loops would be too slow so they use a more flat hit to still get a decent pace?

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 8, 2017

I actually have played lots of women. I think it is just that they actually have quicker response times so they are more comfortable closer to the table and going bang-bang-bang. Don't be fooled. All the top women can loop with more power when they are at mid-distance. But that close game, it is really hard to handle that reset time when your opponent is taking the ball off the bounce and the ball is right back at you so fast.

And, no, Dominikk, it is not that their racket speed is slower. Definitely not. If you watch top women looping from mid-distance, the racket speed may even be faster. I believe it is that they have less mass behind the core rotation and the weight transfer so their body translates less force into the ball. A 180 Lbs person (81 kgs) has 60 lbs (27 kgs) more weight behind their stroke than a 120 lbs person (54 kgs). 60 + 60 = 120. 60 + 60 + 60 = 180. 27 + 27 = 54. 27 + 27 + 27 = 81. 1/3 more mass = 1/3 more power.

However, the misconception of arm speed equalling power is common among players who do not yet understand the mechanics of a good TT stroke and how much of the power comes from the body.

Spin comes from the speed of the forearm and wrist snap. Power comes from the core rotation and weight transfer. And you need both for a good stroke. And any high level player can do that. But that close to the table, you don't have time. You have to just react and bang the ball back.

pgpg · Aug 8, 2017

Ilia Minkin said:
As a spectator, I can appreciate the close to the table bang bang kind of game. It can certainly be effective in men's division too. But I totally hate playing it.

I actually hate watching it ('bang bang' exchanges, mostly on BH) - I find it quite boring.

UpSideDownCarl · Aug 8, 2017

pgpg said:
I actually hate watching it ('bang bang' exchanges, mostly on BH) - I find it quite boring.

Yeah, I don't really find watching bang-bang, interesting. But it is darn hard to play against someone good at it. And it is even harder to try and play that way.

I like watching the men launch long distance bombs, (really, it is mid-distance).

But I would be much at a much higher level if I was better at that bang-bang game.

Ilia Minkin · Aug 8, 2017

One thing that I enjoy in watching women's game is that they have longer rallies. Anybody who complains about short rallies in TT should watch women's game

And they generate epic points from time to time as well.

Brs · Aug 8, 2017

I prefer watching the top women. Their hand speed and touch is unbelievable. Also in the men's usually one player takes control of the point and ends it, which is kind of boring to me. The women battle for control and sometimes it changes hands 2 - 3 times in a point.

LordPippington · Aug 8, 2017

I generally prefer watching women's table tennis. Although they seem much weaker in the backhand strokes than men. Specifically the opening banana flick. Some women do it a lot, but most not so much... compare how many times FZD or ZJ receive serve with a banana compared to Ding Ning or Liu Shiwen.

Baal · Aug 8, 2017

Forget whether it is bang bang or close in or spinny.

Watch how Zhang Yining moves her feet and watch her balance. Watch how, as a result, she can immediately go in the offensive with her forehand given even the slightest opportunity.

This is the thing. And it is gender neutral and nobody has ever been better at that aspect of the game.

iammaru · Aug 8, 2017

As a spectator, I don't like watching women's table tennis because it's much less spectacular than men's table tennis. Sometimes it's even very boring to watch. Not many matches are interesting.
However, I can easily understand why watching and learning from female pros, especially ZYN is better than learning from the male pros.

Look at Zhang Yi Ning, she is nowhere as strong or fast as men and she doesn't have incredible shots or excellent physical abilities like Ma Long, ZJK or Fan Zhendong, even Liu Shiwen or Ding Ning. So her strokes must be more efficient, she uses less power, less spin and more strategy. And it's better for us to learn from her technique, strategy and movement because we are amateurs, most of us don't have professional training, athlete's physics or their lightning reflexes. Even if you can learn Ma Long's or ZJK's technique, your game won't be effective if you don't have those things.

ttmonster · Aug 8, 2017

Completely agree with you Baal. I also like watching Feng Tianwei , just because her game is so clean ... I specifically remember her match with a chopper which was a complete eye opener for me , the way she kept pushing and attacking to the middle and making the chopper change from forehand to backhand and searching for a weak ball to loop kill ...

Baal said:
Forget whether it is bang bang or close in or spinny.

Watch how Zhang Yining moves her feet and watch her balance. Watch how, as a result, she can immediately go in the offensive with her forehand given even the slightest opportunity.

This is the thing. And it is gender neutral and nobody has ever been better at that aspect of the game.

Watching pros makes you better, and we should watch women players

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